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July 14, 2019 — Nick Redfern



Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Another great episode featuring Nick Redfern, and his current book, "Flying Saucers from the Kremlin: UFOs, Russian Meddling, Soviet Spies & Cold War Secrets.”

As someone often wrote, 'nuff said.

We had more ground to cover, so we invited Nick to also join us on this weekend's episode of "After The Paracast," an exclusive feature of The Paracast.+

For more info on our premium subscription service, please visit: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio

And if you wanted a compelling reason to join The Paracast+, this is it!
 

RustyShackleford

Paranormal Novice
I found the Soviet Origin Hypothesis in relation to the MJ-12 Documents to be rather plausible.
It's certainly possible, but I think a more likely source of the original MJ 12 documents to be American intelligence.

We already know that during the 1980s, the same decade in which the MJ 12 documents were 'leaked' and then made public, American intelligence was already in the business of providing bogus UFO/alien related government documents to UFO researchers. For example, the 'Aquarius Telex', which was ultimately meant for Paul Bennewitz via Bill Moore, was a piece of disinformation originating from Doty/Falcon. Also, in 1983 there was Doty and Linda Howe’s meeting where Doty provided Howe with a supposed official government document entitled 'Briefing Paper for the President of the United States' which detailed UFO crashes and alien survivors etc (sound familiar?).


This all happened well before the original MJ 12 documents landed on Jamie Shandera's doormat.

Furthermore, significantly, the 'Aquarius Telex' contains the first ever mention of the term 'MJ 12’ in an alleged government document. Given that this document originated with American intelligence, then, to me, this is a strong indication that American Intelligence created the term ‘MJ 12’.


This begs the question: If the Soviets wanted to create a set of fake UFO government documents to confuse the Americans, then why would they use the name of a fictitious organisation that had been created by American intelligence? Any American intelligence agent would see the term MJ 12 and know immediately the documents were bogus.


Granted, what I’ve outlined above is not conclusive, and I’m not dismissing the Soviet theory out of hand, but based on what we know, I think the theory that American intelligence created the original MJ 12 documents to be the most likely.
 

blowfish

Whittingham
US intelligence being duped by Soviet Intel Operation for MJ is a joke. Also how does Nick know his being feed disinformation? The Soviets were known to flood its own citizens with it. So all those US Military eyewitness feel for Roswell disinformation campaign. Rather keep an open mind on MJ 12 documents and Roswell events.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Many of the MJ-12 documents have been demonstrated to be fake. Klass did that in the mid 90's. Sufficiently so to throw them all out. Even if something in them is real, it's impossible to distinguish what's real and what isn't. Anyone that thinks they're real - or even of sufficient quality to have the Soviets or even the US Military fake them, just isn't paying attention to the facts relevant to the issue. And that even goes for my beloved Stan Friedman, RIP.

They are firmly in my BS category, along with crop circles and channelling love and light from the Pleidians.

That being said, it would make a load of sense for the Soviets to shape the contactee movement to be something that's positive to communism (given it could have been the next big religious movement), or at least confusing enough to America to waste it's time looking into bogus information.
 

USI Calgary

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Time will tell.
Regardless of who or what agency created the MJ-12 documents, they've certainly become a landmark along the ufology timeline, and I have very little doubt that our Special Correspondent @UFOs Northwest ( William Puckett ) had once been in possession of real physical copies. So maybe the question of whether or not they're "real", as in created by a genuine US Department about real events, they're certainly a "real" story, that despite efforts to discredit, continues to surprise us.
 
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blowfish

Whittingham
Indeed, too much discarding and follow the footnotes of genuine documents that have been verified by officials not cutouts. Anyway here couple of good images and the universe is full of life forms from micro to the macro which humanity will discover by NASA and ESA..
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Regardless of who or what agency created the MJ-12 documents, they've certainly become a landmark along the ufology timeline, and I have very little doubt that our Special Correspondent @UFOs Northwest ( William Puckett ) had once been in possession of real physical copies. So maybe the question of whether or not they're "real", as in created by a genuine US Department about real events, they're certainly a "real" story, that despite efforts to discredit, continues to surprise us.
Surprise us with what?

I haven’t seen or heard anything of value come out of the MJ-12 debacle except a commentary on political infighting and a breakdown on rationality.

They are as fake as Billy Mier’s Beamships.
 

USI Calgary

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Surprise us with what?
I guess that perhaps I should have said ( "surprise me" ), because I hadn't heard William's story before, and assuming it's true, which I believe it is, it's a whole other angle because they were hard copies that predated the Moore & Shandera release, and were handed over by someone in the US military. So if we look at how that fits into Redfern's theory that they came from the Russian's, then we have to wonder if William's source knew who really made them?
 

Farlig Gulstein

Skilled Investigator
the universe is full of life forms from micro to the macro
Professor David Kipping of Columbia University who actually searches for exoplanets and moons seems to say in the vid below that such a statement is premature at present, based on his understanding of a-biogenesis. He responds to the proposition on the basis of the science that he knows, which very likely does not include reports that are very difficult to substantiate (reports of ufos, paranormal, etc), so his cautionings about the issue may not be convincing to anyone who thinks that a ufo experience on earth = visiting extraterrestrial biological lifeforms.

 
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marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
I guess that perhaps I should have said ( "surprise me" ), because I hadn't heard William's story before, and assuming it's true, which I believe it is, it's a whole other angle because they were hard copies that predated the Moore & Shandera release, and were handed over by someone in the US military. So if we look at how that fits into Redfern's theory that they came from the Russian's, then we have to wonder if William's source knew who really made them?
I hear you - my take is that it's all BS (meaning MJ-12). Whether the smokescreen is Soviet, American, or Bill Moore, I don't really care. It's all just a distraction.

It's why I'm slowly warming to the whole 'to the stars academy' thing. They're not screwing around with he said vs this other guy said vs here's a document we can't prove thing. They're going to primary sources and extracting relevant data.

Ufology seems to be more of a soap opera or cult of personality than it seems interested in getting hard facts and data. I mean, even this forum is rife with random noise and arguing about stuff that's been proven to be a hoax decades ago.
 

USI Calgary

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
I hear you - my take is that it's all BS (meaning MJ-12). Whether the smokescreen is Soviet, American, or Bill Moore, I don't really care. It's all just a distraction.

It's why I'm slowly warming to the whole 'to the stars academy' thing. They're not screwing around with he said vs this other guy said vs here's a document we can't prove thing. They're going to primary sources and extracting relevant data.

Ufology seems to be more of a soap opera or cult of personality than it seems interested in getting hard facts and data. I mean, even this forum is rife with random noise and arguing about stuff that's been proven to be a hoax decades ago.
All valid points. Like I was saying during the interview with Professor Paul Kingsbury, we don't have to become initiates or disciples in order to be ufologists. We can take a step back and look at the whole subject from an academic and objective perspective. For me, that transforms the whole picture. It's like taking a massive swirling funnel cloud filled with all manner of societal debris, including flying cows, and freezing it in time so that you can walk into it and try to make sense of the thing. There's practically nothing that isn't a distraction ( TTSA incuded ). But I still find it all endlessly fascinating.
 
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blowfish

Whittingham
Professor David Kipping of Columbia University who actually searches for exoplanets and moons seems to say in the vid below that such a statement is premature at present, based on his understanding of a-biogenesis. He responds to the proposition on the basis of the science that he knows, which very likely does not include reports that are very difficult to substantiate (reports of ufos, paranormal, etc), so his cautionings about the issue may not be convincing to anyone who thinks that a ufo experience on earth = visiting extraterrestrial biological lifeforms.

Vast amounts of water in our Solar System and Mars has large deposits of frozen ice (large deposits of ice under its mantel) and other planets no doubt have essence for life. I watch it and we are humans looking at the Universe through that prism . How much of the Earth oceans has scientist explored and how many exo-planets are their? Also peer-review is subject to rules and regulations and often connected to grants from the Governments. Its a funnel system and no doubt NASA & ESA will change with increasing new discoveries including micro and macro life forms. Like Sir Charles Darwin "Origin of Species" (1850) humanity will change its views of life forms. UFO whatever they are keep occurring and quote "Facett and Greenwood book Clear Intent/ THE UFO COVER UP " Federal agencies have conducted secret probes on UFOs , details of which have been either partly or totally supressed. 209. " Wonder if the link you posted of the acdemic has read it ?
 

RustyShackleford

Paranormal Novice
I guess that perhaps I should have said ( "surprise me" ), because I hadn't heard William's story before, and assuming it's true, which I believe it is, it's a whole other angle because they were hard copies that predated the Moore & Shandera release, and were handed over by someone in the US military. So if we look at how that fits into Redfern's theory that they came from the Russian's, then we have to wonder if William's source knew who really made them?
Randall, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you RE William Puckett's documents predating the ones supplied to Shandera/Moore.


Shandera received his MJ 12 documents in December 1984, and he and Moore went public with them in summer 1987.

According to Puckett's website his source's source received the documents in 1987 and Puckett was supplied them in 1997.


If we're to take all of the above at face value then Shandera/Moore's MJ 12 documents predate Puckett's by a 2 to 3 years.

Furthermore, if we're being a bit more circumspect, and don’t necessarily take the documents 'back stories' at face value, and instead look at the dates the documents were made public, then Shandera still trumps Puckett as Shandera went public with them in 1987, whilst the earliest Puckett could’ve gone public was 1997.

Whatever way you look at it Shandera and Moore pipped William to the post by some distance.
 

RustyShackleford

Paranormal Novice
Randall, I'd also like to thank you again for asking Nick my question. I was intrigued with his comments in relation to the Observer article.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the source of the article was Tim Good (this would make sense as the Observer is a British publication and Tim would no doubt be looking to publicise his up coming book which contained the MJ 12 documents) but I'll need to double check this.

I think this re-asserts the importance of establishing Tim Good's source of the MJ 12 documents, but unfortunately I'm starting to think this is going to be a bridge too far.
 

USI Calgary

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Randall, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you RE William Puckett's documents predating the ones supplied to Shandera/Moore ...
This is one of those interesting examples of how a statement can be true or false depending on context. The context I was working in was: Because the documents received by William were actual physical documents rather than something on film, if they were genuine, they must have been created earlier than the film Shandera got ( logically ), and the inference I got from William was that the original source was someone in the military who had possessed them for a substantial amount of time. But I still think that running the numbers like you did on actual dates for the chain of custody was sensible thing to do. It forced me to have to look at the issue from a completely different perspective. Always good. Thanks!
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Randall, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you RE William Puckett's documents predating the ones supplied to Shandera/Moore.


Shandera received his MJ 12 documents in December 1984, and he and Moore went public with them in summer 1987.

According to Puckett's website his source's source received the documents in 1987 and Puckett was supplied them in 1997.


If we're to take all of the above at face value then Shandera/Moore's MJ 12 documents predate Puckett's by a 2 to 3 years.

Furthermore, if we're being a bit more circumspect, and don’t necessarily take the documents 'back stories' at face value, and instead look at the dates the documents were made public, then Shandera still trumps Puckett as Shandera went public with them in 1987, whilst the earliest Puckett could’ve gone public was 1997.

Whatever way you look at it Shandera and Moore pipped William to the post by some distance.
And didn’t Bill Moore admit to lying about the Benowitz affair at about the same time?

I wouldn’t believe Bill Moore about much of anything. In fact, if you want me to not believe something, have Bill Moore say it.
 



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