Iran's right?

[Simonemendez]

I think that Iran has the right to have nuclear weapons. I recall sometime back, in the media, that some extreme rhetoric, was being attributed to the President of Iran.
( I'd rather not try and pronounce and spell----just now. I'm lucky to spell 'Dick And Jane And Spot' correctly). (By the way, I'm in impressive company. Our Stanton Friedman is/was a terrible speller).
Well, later, though, I listened to an informed Progressive ---debunk--- the allegations against the Iranian Leader. This caused me to recollect, that, during the Persian Gulf War, hysterical propaganda abounded here in the US, that Iraqi soldiers were throwing little babies out of incubators in Hospitals. It turned out to be deliberate black psyops disinfo. Every time I here of something being attributed to the Leader of Iran, but I did not hear himself say it, with my own ears, I ---immediately--- wonder if it's coming from the CIA.
Iran is a pretty modernising country, and it's citizens like Americans. Does anyone get the very ---strong--- impression like I do, that if Hillary Clinton were President, we'd be getting ready to attack Iran for those "Weapons of mass destruction?"
I DO NOT BELIEVE that Iran wants to priemptively attack Israel, but rather, desires to posess defense capabilities against Her, just in case, only.

 

[paraschtick]

I think that Iran has the right to have nuclear weapons. I recall sometime back, in the media, that some extreme rhetoric, was being attributed to the President of Iran.
( I'd rather not try and pronounce and spell----just now. I'm lucky to spell 'Dick And Jane And Spot' correctly). (By the way, I'm in impressive company. Our Stanton Friedman is/was a terrible speller).
Well, later, though, I listened to an informed Progressive ---debunk--- the allegations against the Iranian Leader. This caused me to recollect, that, during the Persian Gulf War, hysterical propaganda abounded here in the US, that Iraqi soldiers were throwing little babies out of incubators in Hospitals. It turned out to be deliberate black psyops disinfo. Every time I here of something being attributed to the Leader of Iran, but I did not hear himself say it, with my own ears, I ---immediately--- wonder if it's coming from the CIA.
Iran is a pretty modernising country, and it's citizens like Americans. Does anyone get the very ---strong--- impression like I do, that if Hillary Clinton were President, we'd be getting ready to attack Iran for those "Weapons of mass destruction?"
I DO NOT BELIEVE that Iran wants to priemptively attack Israel, but rather, desires to posess defense capabilities against Her, just in case, only.

Its all propaganda. Remember that speech when Ahmadinejad said that he wanted Israel wiped off the face of the planet. It didn't quite happen that way. It wasn't quite what he said. It was deliberately mis-translated by ... who knows ... CIA or something I think. Anyway, just another piece of propaganda to make it seem as if they hate the US and want to bomb it and Israel to hell.

Oh, and I've been to Iran. Extremely friendly people. Loved every minute I was there, and I would go back there if it wasn't such a dangerous part of the world ... and I had the money. Definitely one of my favourite places in the world.

Another interesting thing is that in Tehran there is a square dedicated to ... the Virgin Mary (I think it is ... one of the Marys anyway ... hehe). If they hate Christians THAT much would they really have a part of their city dedicated to one. Hmmm.

Oh and the Muslim world doesn't hate the US. They're just human beings trying to get through their lives every day ... for the most part. Yeah there are some fruitcakes ... but I'll think you'll find a number of fruitcakes in the US too.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Its all propaganda. Remember that speech when Ahmadinejad said that he wanted Israel wiped off the face of the planet. It didn't quite happen that way. It wasn't quite what he said. It was deliberately mis-translated by ... who knows ... CIA or something I think. Anyway, just another piece of propaganda to make it seem as if they hate the US and want to bomb it and Israel to hell.

Oh, and I've been to Iran. Extremely friendly people. Loved every minute I was there, and I would go back there if it wasn't such a dangerous part of the world ... and I had the money. Definitely one of my favourite places in the world.

Another interesting thing is that in Tehran there is a square dedicated to ... the Virgin Mary (I think it is ... one of the Marys anyway ... hehe). If they hate Christians THAT much would they really have a part of their city dedicated to one. Hmmm.

Oh and the Muslim world doesn't hate the US. They're just human beings trying to get through their lives every day ... for the most part. Yeah there are some fruitcakes ... but I'll think you'll find a number of fruitcakes in the US too.

If you liked Iran, you may wish to go back to visit very soon. I fear that the Bush-Obama administration (one and the same thing in my opinion) is slowly setting up to strike Iran. What strategic goal would this achieve? Who the hell knows - probably bring on the fundamentalist Christian End Times that so many people in this country are eager to invoke so they can fly into the way of 747's during the Rapture. Seriously, I do fear the military-industrial complex in this country (which is a form of madness) will need new targets soon, and Iran is being set up. I just wonder how long the USA can continue this madness of aggression before we get another 911, or is that what they secretly want, to keep notching up the madness level by level until its all out world war 3? Bottomline: see Iran now while its still there.

 

[Ezechiel]

I think that Iran has the right to have nuclear weapons. I recall sometime back, in the media, that some extreme rhetoric, was being attributed to the President of Iran.

IMHO, mixing nuclear weapons with religious extremism is a recipe for armageddon.

Wonder what would happen if you gave a nuke to fundamentalists that believe in rapture ?
Would Allah be great if Iran nuked Israel off the face of this planet ?

What is their justification for wanting to acquire a nuke anyways ? What's the point ? are they being oppressed ?

 

[Schuyler]

The issue of 'wiping Israel off the map' is rather more complicated than that. It actually originated in Iran and was a quote of what Kohmeni once said. It can't possibly be 'wipe off the map' because there is no such idiom in Farsi, the Iranian language. But Iranians trying to translate the real phrase actually used the idiom first. It wasn't a Western translation. Of course, that doesn't make it right, either. A fairly thorough analysis of it is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

 

[paraschtick]

IMHO, mixing nuclear weapons with religious extremism is a recipe for armageddon.

Wonder what would happen if you gave a nuke to fundamentalists that believe in rapture ?
Would Allah be great if Iran nuked Israel off the face of this planet ?

What is their justification for wanting to acquire a nuke anyways ? What's the point ? are they being oppressed ?

I've seen little real evidence to show that Iran are after nukes. But I would think that they would want nukes simply because the main aggressor in the area ie Israel has them (I'm not saying this is a good thing ... just understandable). And if they're not after nukes and they are just simply trying to build nuclear reactors well thats their right. Who has the right outside Iran to say that they can't have nuclear reactors??

Oh and if I'm right don't something like 40 million Americans believe in the rapture?? Or am I getting confused with something else. There are so many flavours of Christian fundamentalism in the US I get confused between them all ... oh and the US has nukes ... oh dear .

ps just to throw this in cos I can ... it is hypothesised in some quarters (see Bill Bryson's book on Australia, "Down Under" that the very wealthy Aum Shinrikyo cult set off a nuke deep in the outback of Australia in the early 90s I think it was ... so you don't need to be Christian, or Judaic, or Muslim to have the bomb ... just a lot of money).

 

[paraschtick]

The issue of 'wiping Israel off the map' is rather more complicated than that. It actually originated in Iran and was a quote of what Kohmeni once said. It can't possibly be 'wipe off the map' because there is no such idiom in Farsi, the Iranian language. But Iranians trying to translate the real phrase actually used the idiom first. It wasn't a Western translation. Of course, that doesn't make it right, either. A fairly thorough analysis of it is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

Mmm I shall take what the wikipedia says with a touch of salt I think ... but interesting. Also quite interesting that MEMRI which is well known to have close ties with Israel (and their old website used to be linked to a number of Israeli ones ... that doesn't seem to be the case now) seems to say that the speech didn't say anything about wiping Israel off the map. So maybe certain parties couldn't get away with it. I don't know. There's so much disinfo out there nowadays ... its hard to keep things straight in your head. Ho hum.

 

[Ezechiel]

Oh and if I'm right don't something like 40 million Americans believe in the rapture?? Or am I getting confused with something else. There are so many flavours of Christian fundamentalism in the US I get confused between them all ... oh and the US has nukes ... oh dear .

Did you feel the international sigh of relief when GW Bush (born-again christian) and his rapture-happy evangelical supporters were replaced a year ago !!!

BTW... Has the U.S. done anything about its army's bible-toting evangelical pastors in Afghanistan yet ? Talk about aggravating a situation ... I hear stem-cell research is back on track, that's a good sign

 

[Kieran]

Iran is not stupid they want Nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip, and they'll will try in every way to make their own bombs. Iraq and the Iraq Army after the United states invaded was an eye opener to the Iranians. When a nation is not a match for the bigger nation the bigger nation is more than likely will invade. But if a nation has a nuclear deterrent the bigger nation will not be so keen to invade a country with that deterrent. North Korea and Iraq is a perfect example, North Korea in many ways is more cruel than Iraq ever was, but it had a nuclear deterrent, and has a nice big friend by way of China. Iraq was a 'cake walk' an invasion of Iran will not be. And such an undertaking would require larger numbers of troops. I guess America could blast Iran into the stone age, but it very unlikely, unless Iran actually used Nuclear weapons on Israel and Israel retaliated back in response/ war game scenario. I personally think Iran need to moderate more and come out of the dark ages of faith rule, and stop there silly comments they have made against Israel, However Israel has not made wise decisions down through the years, and has created more hostility than friendship with their neighbours.

 

[Schuyler]

I think you have to be very careful when suggesting that a certain number of people 'believe' in something (like the rapture.) I say this from personal experience. I just happen to know quite a few Mormons and Catholics. I grew up in a neighborhood where there was a large Catholic population, complete with Catholic schools, etc. so a lot of my playmates who were with me in kindergarden suddenly disappeared in 1st grade since they went across the street to the Catholic school (Catholic schools, at least at that time, had no kindergarden). My first serious girlfriend was a Mormon, and I learned a lot about the Mormon religion from her since, ultimately wanting to get laid, I went to church with her. As an adult it turns out a lot of the software companies I did business with just happened to be located in Provo, Utah (Novell, Dynix, etc.). I have also 'done time' in the Deep South where the population tends to be more heavily Evangelical. My father was baptized a Southern Baptist; my uncle was an evangelical minister (a doozy!), and my grandfather-in-law was a Congregational minister (actually a very sane and reasonable man).

As far as my adult Catholic friends: Do they go to Church every Sunday? Yes. Are they involved in church activities? Yes. Do they consider themselves Christians and 'devotees' of Jesus? Yes. Do they practice birth control? You bet! Do they believe in miracles? They are extremely skeptical. Do they believe in the rapture? Absolutely not. Silliest thing they've ever heard. Do they think the Pope is infallible? They fall on the floor laughing. They think the Pope is an idiot. My closest Catholic frien is a marine biologist, a 'scientist,' and Evolution is okay with him!

The same thing is true with my Mormon friends. They do the Mormon schtick, but as far as belief? They take it with a grain of salt. It's just that they grew up in the culturee. They know and participate in the rituals, but they are very light on the theology of it all. And as far as that goes, I visited Turkey a few years ago and everyone I met there a) was happy to see Americans and b) made it known to me that they thought the 72 virgin thing and blowing yourself up was bat shit insane.

But, you see, when the polls are done and the people counted, they all get counted kind of generically. I would be counted a 'Christian' when I'm not at all. I live in a more or less Christian dominated culture. My tour director in Turkey would doubtless be counted as a Muslim, but she wore western clothes, was a knock out, and has Shiite friends. So when Gallup says there are 40 million people who believe in teh rapture, okay. Fine. But my guess is not many of them are selling their stuff to wait on the mountaintop. They SAY they believe it because they are trapped in a culture and doctrine that says they must believe it, and, frankly, it's just easier that way. There are more important things.

I'm reminded of The Right Stuff where the reporters are asking the Mercury 7 astronauts if they go to church and Gordo Copper stand up very seriously and says, "Why, yes. I go to church regularly!" which was total bull shit. John Glenn? Mr. Dudley Do Right? You bet. But Gordo? Not in a million years.

 

[Red]

Iran is not stupid they want Nuclear weapons as a bargaining chip, and they'll will try in every way to make their own bombs.

True, think how many concessions your neighbors might make to you if they thought at any moment they might go up in a mushroom cloud.

 

[Ezechiel]

I think you have to be very careful when suggesting that a certain number of people 'believe' in something (like the rapture.) .

Must be a regional thing then... Tried to set up a new station monitoring system in Wichita Kansas that involved putting your hand on a flat screen to identify worker and start process logging. Received a notice from the union telling me that this machine was offensive to the workers and seen as a sign of the beast.

They produced a piece of scripture as support to their argument. I ended up dismantling the offensive equipment ... a hair raising experience to say the least


Remember this God Warrior

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I think you have to be very careful when suggesting that a certain number of people 'believe' in something (like the rapture.) I say this from personal experience. I just happen to know quite a few Mormons and Catholics. I grew up in a neighborhood where there was a large Catholic population, complete with Catholic schools, etc. so a lot of my playmates who were with me in kindergarden suddenly disappeared in 1st grade since they went across the street to the Catholic school (Catholic schools, at least at that time, had no kindergarden). My first serious girlfriend was a Mormon, and I learned a lot about the Mormon religion from her since, ultimately wanting to get laid, I went to church with her. As an adult it turns out a lot of the software companies I did business with just happened to be located in Provo, Utah (Novell, Dynix, etc.). I have also 'done time' in the Deep South where the population tends to be more heavily Evangelical. My father was baptized a Southern Baptist; my uncle was an evangelical minister (a doozy!), and my grandfather-in-law was a Congregational minister (actually a very sane and reasonable man).

As far as my adult Catholic friends: Do they go to Church every Sunday? Yes. Are they involved in church activities? Yes. Do they consider themselves Christians and 'devotees' of Jesus? Yes. Do they practice birth control? You bet! Do they believe in miracles? They are extremely skeptical. Do they believe in the rapture? Absolutely not. Silliest thing they've ever heard. Do they think the Pope is infallible? They fall on the floor laughing. They think the Pope is an idiot. My closest Catholic frien is a marine biologist, a 'scientist,' and Evolution is okay with him!

The same thing is true with my Mormon friends. They do the Mormon schtick, but as far as belief? They take it with a grain of salt. It's just that they grew up in the culturee. They know and participate in the rituals, but they are very light on the theology of it all. And as far as that goes, I visited Turkey a few years ago and everyone I met there a) was happy to see Americans and b) made it known to me that they thought the 72 virgin thing and blowing yourself up was bat shit insane.

But, you see, when the polls are done and the people counted, they all get counted kind of generically. I would be counted a 'Christian' when I'm not at all. I live in a more or less Christian dominated culture. My tour director in Turkey would doubtless be counted as a Muslim, but she wore western clothes, was a knock out, and has Shiite friends. So when Gallup says there are 40 million people who believe in teh rapture, okay. Fine. But my guess is not many of them are selling their stuff to wait on the mountaintop. They SAY they believe it because they are trapped in a culture and doctrine that says they must believe it, and, frankly, it's just easier that way. There are more important things.

I'm reminded of The Right Stuff where the reporters are asking the Mercury 7 astronauts if they go to church and Gordo Copper stand up very seriously and says, "Why, yes. I go to church regularly!" which was total bull shit. John Glenn? Mr. Dudley Do Right? You bet. But Gordo? Not in a million years.

I love posts like this that go into the person's personal history. Doing this makes the post a lot more interesting for me. So thanks for doing that.

I personally don't know anyone who expects the Rapture to take place if Iran is nuked and this becomes some goofy war predicted in Revelations. But, brother, I know a lot of those folks are in this great US of A. I surf the internet a lot and keep close tabs on this area of thought, since I was raised within it (my dad thinks gay people should be killed, for example). I think this crowd has infiltated the military in a very big way, as was mentioned. But another major reason why we may take action against Iran is that the military-industrial complex (all the contractors that literally make billions from war like Blackwater) NEED war. It is what they do for a living! It reminds me a bit of the popular movie IRONMAN. Anyway, this machine must be fed, profits must be maintained. If we actually established our goals in Iraq and Afghanistan, what would this monster do? It must be fed! It isn't going to recall all these macho fighting men and have them making refrigerator parts in Des Moines! We've created a war machine of private industry/contractors that has great lobbying power and has become effectively part of the government. They must have a target. Therefore, the US must have an enemy. And we (the people) will be talked into believing Iran is that enemy. Is it? I do not know, but I am certainly skeptical of whatever I hear on Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC. I don't need corporate media (which probably also makes huge profits from war via their investment portfolio) to fill my mind with reasons Iran is a terrible threat and must be vanquished. My fear is that this machine is literally insane, and would easily convince itself that it could take on China or Russia and win, sustaining profits with only collaterial damage (which to them might mean tens of millions of American lives if there were nuke strikes here or whatever mayhem our forces do to the poor citizens of the designated enemy country). So,I think we have a very sick situation here, and I don't see an answer.

P.S. Did you know that the United States of America is one of the largest arms dealers on the planet. Just yesterday I read a study that said the USA controls up to 77% of the world market. That's a lot of investment in war! Yeah, they call it "defense". Sure, buddy, I believe you......

 

[Ezechiel]

They must have a target. Therefore, the US must have an enemy.
P.S. Did you know that the United States of America is one of the largest arms dealers on the planet. Just yesterday I read a study that said the USA controls up to 77% of the world market. That's a lot of investment in war! Yeah, they call it "defense". Sure, buddy, I believe you......

What you don't want is a target defined by religious bias. Historically, religions have been very helpful in defining targets and providing the moral framework that supports aggression. By all counts, these arm dealers must be saints

 

[Schuyler]

Had that happen, too. When we first automated our library with barcodes we received a very articulate letter from a patron who wanted to be removed from the database because barcodes were the sign of the beast.

And that brings up a point. When I say this letter was articulate, I mean erudite. This guy was not stupid, just bat shit insane. There's more to this belief system stuff than intelligence.

 

[Schuyler]

I think this crowd has infiltated the military in a very big way,

I'm inclined to believe that. My cousin, son of my Evangelical Uncle, was an air force officer and is very evangelical. He went to the air force academy where, I have heard, the evangelicals have a very large presence. But he was even too radical for them. He made Lt. Col. and was not promoted above that. He would go on flights (as the pilot) and try to convert the co-pilot. He basically destroyed his relationships with the rest of the family. My other cousin (different Uncle) won't have anything to do with him. And being such a fundamentalist, he's basically a very unhappy person. He hates his job (flying 747s for a cargo company), says his wife is fat, and generally walks around with a cloud over his head.

For the record, this has not happened in the Navy. We're all largely heathens.

 

[conor]

I think that no one should have nuclear weapons to be honest! But in terms of Iran having nuclear weapons, Ahmoudinijad may not want to wipe Israel off the map, but he has contempt for Israel (and Israel is the symbol for the West in the middle east).
Israel is not on the best of terms with Iran either. They would feel threatened, and that in itself is enough for things to go pretty badly. Both of these countries aren't exactly known for their diplomacy...

So .... it would destabilise the region, and you could end up with a cold war-like stand off between these two nations in the middle east, or worse ... Of course, the fact that Israel has the bomb is destabilising enough as it is.

Here's a question, if Israel didn't have nuclear weapons, would there be such a drive in Iran to get them?

 

[Jay]

For the record, this has not happened in the Navy. We're all largely heathens.

Thanks for that, I needed a laugh.

 

[Simonemendez]

I just love all of your mature and informed response posts, Much Thanks. I was fearing at least one, anyway, kneejerk reactionary. And was conversely, quell'd. This morning on NPR's news, I heard mention of Hillary Clinton having been said "no" to, by, (I --think-- it was) Brazill? In response to her mission of soliciting other soveriegns to concur for sanctions against Iran.
I am a Far Leftist, for the most part, and a Democrat voter, BUT there are quite a few Democrats who are as Skull-And-Bones scary Neocon WarHawkish, as anyone can get. Make no mistake about it.

 

[Slim Shady]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 and google pre 1960's iran and Anglo-Iranian oil company (BP oil) is the reasons iran hates america and america hates iran .