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George Knapp - March 15

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Tommy Allison

Guest
Dude c'mon. Clearly something happened.

Can you define what you mean by "fabrication" in this instance?
Oh sure, something happened, but it wasn't ET's.

If the American People were to find out that after World War II, we were flying around in captured Nazi airplanes, like the ME-262, which is nearly identical to what Kenneth Arnold saw, there would have been some explaining to do.

There were no flying saucers at Roswell, nor were there any alien bodies.

It's all a joke.
 

AnnetteMarie

Skilled Investigator
If the American People were to find out that after World War II, we were flying around in captured Nazi airplanes, like the ME-262, which is nearly identical to what Kenneth Arnold saw, there would have been some explaining to do.
is that a personal belief? or opinion based on factual evidence?

if evidence, can you link to it? especially photo image of the ME-262.

I would appreciate seeing it!
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
Oh sure, something happened, but it wasn't ET's.

If the American People were to find out that after World War II, we were flying around in captured Nazi airplanes, like the ME-262, which is nearly identical to what Kenneth Arnold saw, there would have been some explaining to do.

There were no flying saucers at Roswell, nor were there any alien bodies.

It's all a joke.
For someone who is so definitive about his conclusions you can't get your facts straight.

The Kenneth Arnold images resemble the Horton Ho 229, a flying wing design, not the ME-262 the famous German jet fighter. They are nothing alike.

Here is the image:
http://www.greyfalcon.us/The%20Horten%20Ho%20229.htm

Here is the ME-262:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/me262/
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
great pics, the wing looks a lot to me, like the stealth bomber. tx!
We sure learned a lot from captured German jets, rockets, and scientists. So did the Russians.

While the Horton 229 bears a resemblance to the UFOs that Kenneth Arnold described there weren't that many prototypes in existence to account for the 9 vehicles that he claimed were visible. In addition the estimated flight speed of the UFOs were twice that of the maximum speed of the Horton 229.

Until computer assisted flight controls became feasible in fly-by-wire planes beginning with the F-16, flying wing designs were very unstable and unfeasible. The Northrop flying wings were canceled for this very reason although it showed promising characteristics.
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
Key word: estimated. An educated guess is still is a guess, Arnold coulda been WAY off.

You're absolutely right. He could have been wrong.

He could have also lied about the number of crafts he saw. The US military would not fly a formation of 9 vehicles unless it was already operational. No one would build let alone fly 9 prototypes at the same time. I also seriously doubt the US could have perfected in 2 years a flying wing that was not a practical design until the B-2 stealth bomber 42 years later.
 

Gareth

Nothin' to see here
Oh sure, something happened, but it wasn't ET's.

If the American People were to find out that after World War II, we were flying around in captured Nazi airplanes, like the ME-262, which is nearly identical to what Kenneth Arnold saw, there would have been some explaining to do.

There were no flying saucers at Roswell, nor were there any alien bodies.

It's all a joke.
Ok I can go with you on the notion that it wasnt ET. So I think fabrication is the wrong word here (unless you mean the US made shit up to cover for what they already had).

Im surprised at your absolution there Tommy. You could very well be right but you dont know that for sure.
 

Frozen E.T. Burrito

Lost Chicken In High Weeds
If the American People were to find out that after World War II, we were flying around in captured Nazi airplanes, like the ME-262, which is nearly identical to what Kenneth Arnold saw, there would have been some explaining to do.
I would think that if it were to have been as simple as *this*, then they would have owned up to such by now. It's *now* common knowledge that we captured their rocket men and a handful of V2's, so there would be no need for a continued cover up of something so trivial during the last two officially released reports on... "the incident".
 
T

Tommy Allison

Guest
I would think that if it were to have been as simple as *this*, then they would have owned up to such by now. It's *now* common knowledge that we captured their rocket men and a handful of V2's, so there would be no need for a continued cover up of something so trivial during the last two officially released reports on... "the incident".
What if we'd lied to the Russians? What if we had way more goodies than they had, and if they found out they'd be pissed? There's a lot of things that stink about Roswell, and I don't care how many times they drag Jesse Marcel Jr. out to tell us he saw alien I-beams or any other crap. It's a dead issue, it has no value, and nothing is coming out about it.

Roswell never happened as far as I'm concerned. Anyone that talks about it, has nothing new to discuss, because what's funny to me is how for over 60 years now, NOTHING like it has happened since.
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
What if we'd lied to the Russians? What if we had way more goodies than they had, and if they found out they'd be pissed?
If you are referring to captured German technology you are wrong. The Russians confiscated an enormous amount of advanced prototypes of rockets, planes, and the German scientists who worked on them. There was very little that the Allies had in their possession that the Russians didn't have also or were aware of.

Roswell never happened as far as I'm concerned. Anyone that talks about it, has nothing new to discuss, because what's funny to me is how for over 60 years now, NOTHING like it has happened since.
Really? Have you heard of Kecksburg? Have you heard of the Varginha, Brazil case? Both involved a military coverup of a crashed vehicle and retrieval or captured aliens.

The Varginha case:


Is This Brazil's Roswell?

Another fascinating case with lots of witnesses, military involvement, photos, film footage, medical examinations, and a close encounter in Colares, Brazil:





 
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Tommy Allison

Guest
Roswell was not an Extra-Terrestrial event.

I'm sure there are plenty of others that were of course, hushed up by the various governments of the world.

In 60 plus years, NOBODY credible has come out with ANY kind of proof on ANY of these crashes you're talking about.

How does that happen? How is it that someone can keep a secret for 60 plus years and not talk about it or have some kind of material proof of it?

It's a joke. It's a scam. It's an absolute fabrication.

When the day comes and there's some kind of disclosure, I'll open my mind to some of this, but for me, the last 60 years of the so called Roswell Crash has been more than enough. The lack of truth, the lack of credible witnesses, the lack of EVIDENCE, someone somewhere knows something, but nobody is talking or showing anything.

Watching shows like UFO Hunters isn't real investigative journalism, and scouring the web doesn't do anything but give people the wrong ideas about a lot of this stuff.

It's all about making money off of the fantastic claims of people who are either dead, or were too young to form a real memory of what they saw.
 
T

Tommy Allison

Guest
If you are referring to captured German technology you are wrong. The Russians confiscated an enormous amount of advanced prototypes of rockets, planes, and the German scientists who worked on them. There was very little that the Allies had in their possession that the Russians didn't have also or were aware of.



Really? Have you heard of Kecksburg? Have you heard of the Varginha, Brazil case? Both involved a military coverup of a crashed vehicle and retrieval or captured aliens.

The Varginha case:


Is This Brazil's Roswell?

Another fascinating case with lots of witnesses, military involvement, photos, film footage, medical examinations, and a close encounter in Colares, Brazil:





Showing me a bunch of videos I've already seen, doesn't equate to what I posted. Has there been another so called Roswell Crash? One where anyone other than the military has scoured up a bunch of so called wreckage?

No. Kecksburg was something different. Who knows what happened there. Half the town tells one story, the other half tells another. Who knows what a bunch of idiots saw in the forest? As far as any of the other non-American sightings or events, who knows what happened there? Any real evidence, that isn't someone's scars?

I've become incredibly skeptical when it comes to the crashes, and various other things because I've seen way too many weirdos and crackpots pop up out of the woodwork, hocking their books, videos, and of course putting on shows where they pretend to investigate stuff.

Just thinking about this stuff is enough to make my blood boil, because of some of the utter bullshit that's been played out on TV, and the media.
 

Schuyler

Misanthrope
Granted that the Horton looks similar to what Arnold saw:



But according to the records, only three were built. In other artist's renditions of the craft, the shape was depicted as even more of a crescent shape, almost like a scythe. I am also uncomfortable dismissing Arnold's account of the speed of the crafts because he 'could' have been wrong. He was an experienced pilot who knew how to claculate speed quickly. Sure he might have been wrong. He might never have seen the craft as he stated. There's all kinds of speculation we can come up with as what really happened, but in the end all we have is what he said. What is a reasonable standard of proof here? I suppose it has to be higher than 'normal' because the events are extraordinary, but if we set the standard of proof so high that abject speculation on what might have happened is deemed more reasonable than the original account, I think we may have gone too far.

Here's an example: Carter filed a UFO report because he and several other men saw one one night at sunset. Much has been made of this sighting by a man who later became President. Carter said he saw it and pointed out precisely where he saw it. It didn't take much investigation to figure out that he saw a light just after sunset on the elliptical path at precisely the angle that Venus was at at the time. Venus cannot be more than 60 degrees from the Sun and always follows or precedes it. It is extremely bright and when its light is going through greater amount of atmosphere than when it is straight overhead, it can appear larger than normal, just as the Moon can. It's a pretty good bet Carter saw Venus. Everything fits: Right place, right time, right kind of sighting. Carter did not embelish his report and his report aligns precisely with the position of Venus. It's not absolute proof, of course. Maybe there was a UFO at exatly the place where Venus was, and off we go speculating.

You don't have that kind of corraboration with the Arnold sighting. All you've got is a vague resemblance to the Horton. You don't have the place, the production numbers, the operational status, the speed, or the flight characteristics to get from one to the other. It's a huge leap of faith to think you've actually explained the Arnold sighting because the Germans built 3 Hortons at the end of the war and Arnold may have miscalculated the speed. Nothing adds up.
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
I'm sure there are plenty of others that were of course, hushed up by the various governments of the world.

In 60 plus years, NOBODY credible has come out with ANY kind of proof on ANY of these crashes you're talking about.

How does that happen? How is it that someone can keep a secret for 60 plus years and not talk about it or have some kind of material proof of it?
You are contradicting yourself. If you hold to your convictions of then no cases are valid. How can you be "sure there are plenty of others that were of course, hushed up by the various governments of the world"?

You're statements can't even pass your own smell test. You're saying only nuts and bolts proof makes any case credible.

Being sick and tired of hearing about Roswell doesn't mean that is a good reason to just dismiss it completely. I am sympathetic to the general frustration that nothing new is being learned in this field and understand when people just walk away from it. So why aren't you walking away?
 
T

Tommy Allison

Guest
You are contradicting yourself. If you hold to your convictions of then no cases are valid. How can you be "sure there are plenty of others that were of course, hushed up by the various governments of the world"?

You're statements can't even pass your own smell test.

The cases I mentioned had far more eyewitnesses than Roswell or had photographic or film footage evidence.

Being sick and tired of hearing about Roswell doesn't mean that is a good reason to just dismiss it completely. I am sympathetic to the general frustration that nothing new is being learned in this field and understand when people just walk away from it. So why aren't you walking away?
You missed the point of my statement. Perhaps if I'd put little emoticons in it you'd have understood me. When I talked about how there were other crashes that various governments have covered up, I was being sarcastic.

I am very sick of hearing about Roswell, because it was never about aliens. Nobody, EVER has proven with either photos, or physical evidence that it was extra-terrestrial.

Are all cases fake? No. Roswell is a complete fabrication. Was a complete fabrication, and will ALWAYS be a complete fabrication.

When you talk about passing the so called smell test, there's ONE case which I think has probably the most promise to yield some truth.

The Aurora Texas incident. You know which one I'm talking about. THAT case more than any other has the potential for the possibility of evidence and I'll tell you why.

There's a grave in the ground of a purported pilot. There's material evidence buried down in a well. There's a LOT of evidence that could be gathered up if there were people interested in excavating a well, and digging down into it.

I believe that the Aurora Incident has more potential to yield physical evidence because of the climate, the location, the people, and most of all, the time in our history that it took place. This was before ANY kind of radar, any kind of military complex, any kind of government intervention of any kind.

If there's ANY case that could yield some kind of evidence, it's most likely the Aurora case.
 

Astroboy

Illegitimate Clone
You missed the point of my statement. Perhaps if I'd put little emoticons in it you'd have understood me. When I talked about how there were other crashes that various governments have covered up, I was being sarcastic.
That is a good suggestion since I thought you didn't need any other emoticons other than angry.

I'm surprised you mentioned the Aurora case since it is so old that all the witnesses are dead and the story is become more folklore than Roswell.
 

Schuyler

Misanthrope
If there's ANY case that could yield some kind of evidence, it's most likely the Aurora case.
Wait a sec. You completely dismiss Roswell, despite living witnesses, including Dr. Marcel, who handled pieces of the wreckage, and then you bet the farm on Aurora? Aurora is widely considered a hoax and fabrication intended to boost the image of the 'little town that almost wasn't there.' Indeed, the case is errily reminsicent of Roswell. There's supposed to be somewhere, a 'piece of metal' that is kind of strange, but no one knows where it is. There's a grave of a 'little man' no one is allowed to dig up, and its location has convenienty been lost, and once they found a 91 year old witness who remembers the incident. The original author was well known for tall takes and was friends with the mayor on whose property the craft landed. Turns out the windmill that figures prominently in the story was never there. That's it. You couldn't have picked a more obscure case if you tried.

http://www.ufologie.net/press/dallasobserver3apr2003.htm

I certainly share in the frustration expressed by many here on the state of Ufology and the hoaxes that permeate it. Although I dislike conspiracy theories in general, if the Disinformation Agents are doing what some people think they are doing, and, indeed, what the Robertson Panel suggested they do in print, then they certainly have done a good job because you are right where they want you to be. Mission accomplished.

For the sake of argument I'm going to postulate that few people here have taken on the mantle of Protector of the Realm to show us misguided souls the way to true enlightenment, and few people have been assigned by some nefarious alphabet agency to keep the pot stirred over at the Paracast to ensure nothing of substance gets accomplished. And surely, judging from the responses here and how people treat one another, few people are here to make friends. Of course, all three are possible!....

The question that remains is that if all this is bunk, and you believe it is all bunk, then why in Heaven's name do you hang out and spend so much time here? Why are people not being more productive with their time? If this is all bunk, it would seem to be sheer drudgery having to put up with the same old arguments and the same old cases again and again and again. Don't you have anything better to do? You know: Get a real job, go to school, make babies, eat gourmet meals, watch Oprah.

Staying here under those circumstances is like saying you don't believe in God and the resurrection of Jesus, but, in spite of the whole world out there, you choose to hang out in the Catholic Church. Well, maybe the Lutheran Church since we do like to nail the hoaxsters to the wall the same way Luther nailed his feces to the wall, I mean, 'theses.'
 
T

Tommy Allison

Guest
I don't believe that it's all bunk. I just believe that Roswell and a lot of other fraudulent cases are bunk.

Jesse Marcel was how old when he handled wreckage?

Do yourself a favor. Go find a long lost toy from 30 or more years ago. I promise you, it will be different, feel different, and look different to your adult eyes.

Just like the so called wreckage he handled.

The fact that all of the witnesses are dead in the Aurora incident, is a POSITIVE. You don't have hearsay and conjecture telling you things are one way, when they might be something else. You can develop a case with the evidence you can actually find. The even occured, but if it was extra-terrestrial, that's speculation.
 

Bixyboo

Skilled Investigator
Jesse Marcel was how old when he handled wreckage?

Do yourself a favor. Go find a long lost toy from 30 or more years ago. I promise you, it will be different, feel different, and look different to your adult eyes.

Just like the so called wreckage he handled.
You are not incorrect in one way, but on the other hand, there can be certain things said to one, showed to one, etc. that will leave an indelible impression on one's mind! They will not forget it nor be inaccurate about it, ya know? (imho).
 


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