Gaza Israel bombings

[Tyger]

No substance. Just wishful thinking. Stating something is so does not make it so. Besides which you are arguing a moot point. What you say has no bearing - even were what you seem to be suggesting objectively factual - whatever your point is. It's not the issue being discussed on the thread. You are engaging in a solitary exercise. Hope you are having fun.

 

[stonehart]

No substance. Just wishful thinking. Stating something is so does not make it so. Besides which you are arguing a moot point. What you say has no bearing - even were what you seem to be suggesting were objectively factual - whatever it is. It's not the issue being discussed on the thread. You are engaging in a solitary exercise. Hope you are having fun.

Very to the point there.. nice.

 

[boomerang]

Exactly so. The troll seeks solely to instigate argument. Complaining about posting styles takes up oxygen on the thread. Making claims yet refusing to link - same. Goos up the flow.

Precisely

 

[Tyger]

I can't link to the interview yet since the interview just got broadcast this evening, but Charlie Rose's hour-long interview with Bruce Reidel, the author of the current book What We Won: America's Secret War in Afghanistan, 1979–89 is excellent.

When the interview comes available on-line - which will be in a few days - I will link to it. But if you have a chance to see the interview over the weekend, it's worth catching. PBS stations usually re-run Charlie Rose's Friday interview over the weekend a couple of times.

Reidel gives informed perspectives on just about everything we have been discussing. Worthy to note, his view is that the solution to this situation has been 'staring us in the face since 2000' with Clinton. That solution he sees as the two state solution, with the 1967 borders and a significant agreement regarding substantial repatriation of Palestinians in the greater area (like Jordan). He states that in his opinion this has not occurred for the last 15 years because there has been a lack of political will.

Reidel also says that nothing will really happen unless the US takes a hard line with Israel.

Check out the interview. As I said, I will link to it when it becomes available.

 

[Tyger]

The international community is responding. BTW - a curious factoid in one of the comments: "Argentina [...] the Zionists originally wanted Argentina as their state." Really? Does anyone know about this? The Zionists wanted Argentina? What a trippy thought!

Five Latin American countries withdraw envoys from Israel
LINK: Five Latin American countries withdraw envoys from Israel

TEXT: "The decision of the Latin American countries to recall their ambassadors in Tel Aviv is a "deep disappointment", says Israel. El Salvador on Wednesday became the fifth Latin American country to withdraw its ambassador from Israel in protest at Israel's military offensive in Gaza. Brazil, Chile, Ecuador and Peru have already recalled their ambassadors.

Israeli Foreign Ministry Spokesman Yigal Palmor said that the move encourages Hamas; "This decision encourages Hamas which has been recognized as a terrorist organization by several countries. The countries standing against terror must act responsibly and should not reward them. While Hamas has been responsible for hindering a ceasfire, El Salvador, Peru and Chile were expected to support international attitude for peace and demilitarization of Gaza", the statement said.

Earlier Israel criticized Brazil over its decision to recall its ambassador in protest at Israel's military offensive in Gaza. Brazil was one of 29 countries in the UN Human Rights Council that voted last Wednesday to investigate Israel over its military offensive in Gaza. During a state visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping on July 17, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff said her country was "profoundly concerned by the dramatic events" in Gaza.

The Palestinian death toll from a devastating Israeli onslaught on the Gaza Strip rose to 1283, according to a Gaza Health Ministry spokesman. According to the spokesman, at least 7170 Palestinians have also been injured in the ongoing Israeli attacks since July 7."

 

[Tyger]

I had no idea that there were other ideas regarding a Jewish homeland. Interesting to hear the original ideas around where there would be established a Jewish homeland. If you google you can see how complicated the history really is.

Did you know that the Israeli Zionists wanted to establish a state in Argentina but later chose Palestine?
LINK: Did you know that the Israeli Zionists wanted to establish a state in Argentina but later chose Palestine?

TEXT: "Theodor Herzl is considered the father of Israel, founder of international Zionism and Zionist Congress
He wrote in his book "The Jewish State" Der Judenstaat, the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine or Argentina

Theodor Herzl - THE PLAN (extracted from the book) "PALESTINE OR ARGENTINE?

"Shall we choose Palestine or Argentine? We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will determine both these points.

"Argentine is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends over a vast area, has a sparse population and a mild climate. The Argentine Republic would derive considerable profit from the cession of a portion of its territory to us. The present infiltration of Jews has certainly produced some discontent, and it would be necessary to enlighten the Republic on the intrinsic difference of our new movement.

"Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of Palestine would attract our people with a force of marvelous potency. If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence. The sanctuaries of Christendom would be safeguarded by assigning to them an extra-territorial status such as is well-known to the law of nations. We should form a guard of honor about these sanctuaries, answering for the fulfillment of this duty with our existence. This guard of honor would be the great symbol of the solution of the Jewish question after eighteen centuries of Jewish suffering."

 

[Tyger]

Israel is not a democracy!

What is sad about this whole situation is the superficial understanding of the events and the people involved. In fairness to us all, who has the time to go into depth about goings-on everywhere in the world? Some of us have all we can do to deal with what's on our plate in our own neck of the woods, but it's all of the same cloth - just going by different names. Israel is a very, very hard place to be right now if you happen to be Left/Liberal/Secular and in favor of peace with the Arabs.

Israeli racist Chant : ‘No school in Gaza, they don’t have any children left’

TEXT: "A right-wing Israeli mob has been caught on film seemingly celebrating the deaths of Palestinian children in Operation Protective Edge. Over 1,200 Palestinians have been killed in Israel’s latest offensive, including over 200 children. The video was published by Israeli journalist Haim Har-Zahav."


Disturbing divisions in Israel - that we are not hearing about - there is a news black-out on this kind of information - but very much the kind of divisions present in other countries between 'right and left'. Listen to this Israeli Peace activist - and the NY Times writer Max Blumenthal.

Israeli Peace Demo Violently Disrupted, Dozens Injured as Counterprotesters Yell "Death to Arabs"

TEXT: "We look at the increasingly dangerous political climate inside Israel where several peace protests have recently come under attack. On Saturday, right-wing activists burned a Palestinian flag, chanted racial slurs, and threw stones at an antiwar protest in Haifa of Arabs and Israelis opposed to the bombardment of Gaza. Haifa's deputy mayor, Dr. Suhail Assad, and his son were beaten. On Sunday, the captain of a youth soccer team in Be'er Sheva wrote on his facebook page: "send left-wing voters to the gas chambers and clean this country of leftists." The week before the Gaza invasion began, gangs were reportedly seen roaming the streets of Jerusalem and other towns shouting, "death to Arabs." We go to Israel to speak with Rann Bar-On, an Israeli peace activist and Duke University mathematics lecturer, who took part in Saturday's Haifa protest. And we are joined by Max Blumenthal, senior writer for Alternet.org and bestselling author whose latest book, "Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel," documents the spread of right-wing Israeli extremism."


BOOK: Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel - October 1, 2013 by Max Blumenthal

TEXT: "In Goliath, New York Times bestselling author Max Blumenthal takes us on a journey through the badlands and high roads of Israel-Palestine, painting a startling portrait of Israeli society under the siege of increasingly authoritarian politics as the occupation of the Palestinians deepens.

Beginning with the national elections carried out during Israel's war on Gaza in 2008-09, which brought into power the country's most right-wing government to date, Blumenthal tells the story of Israel in the wake of the collapse of the Oslo peace process.

As Blumenthal reveals, Israel has become a country where right-wing leaders like Avigdor Lieberman and Bibi Netanyahu are sacrificing democracy on the altar of their power politics; where the loyal opposition largely and passively stands aside and watches the organized assault on civil liberties; where state-funded Orthodox rabbis publish books that provide instructions on how and when to kill Gentiles; where half of Jewish youth declare their refusal to sit in a classroom with an Arab; and where mob violence targets Palestinians and African asylum seekers scapegoated by leading government officials as "demographic threats."

Immersing himself like few other journalists inside the world of hardline political leaders and movements, Blumenthal interviews the demagogues and divas in their homes, in the Knesset, and in the watering holes where their young acolytes hang out, and speaks with those political leaders behind the organized assault on civil liberties. As his journey deepens, he painstakingly reports on the occupied Palestinians challenging schemes of demographic separation through unarmed protest. He talks at length to the leaders and youth of Palestinian society inside Israel now targeted by security service dragnets and legislation suppressing their speech, and provides in-depth reporting on the small band of Jewish Israeli dissidents who have shaken off a conformist mindset that permeates the media, schools, and the military.

Through his far-ranging travels, Blumenthal illuminates the present by uncovering the ghosts of the past—the histories of Palestinian neighborhoods and villages now gone and forgotten; how that history has set the stage for the current crisis of Israeli society; and how the Holocaust has been turned into justification for occupation.

A brave and unflinching account of the real facts on the ground, Goliath is an unprecedented and compelling work of journalism."

 

[Tyger]

The US needs too stop funding Israel. Full stop. Period.

 

[kanakaris]

I even heard Bill Maher defend the Israeli actions , what a creep.

 

[Tyger]

"They want all of Palestine" - Henry Siegman (84 years old) talking about Israel's intentions.

It is important to listen to Mr Siegman and others like him. Listen to our mainstream news you would never know that there is a significant Jewish dissent regarding Israel's actions and policies.

This content of this interview is important to hear -

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation
LINK: U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation | Democracy Now!

TEXT: In the second part of our interview, Henry Siegman, the former head of the American Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America, discusses the assault on Gaza, Hamas’ rocket attacks on Israel, and how peace could be attainable if the Obama administration reverse decades-long support for the Israeli occupation. Born in 1930 in Germany, Siegman fled as the Nazis came to power, eventually arriving in the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement pushing for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. Commenting on the Hamas charter that calls for Israel’s destruction, Siegman says: "The difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel is actually implementing [a destruction policy] — actually preventing a Palestinian state which doesn’t exist. Millions of Palestinians live in this subservient position without rights, without security, without hope, and without a future." Commenting on Israeli justifications for killing Palestinians in the name of self-defense from 1948 through today, Siegman responds: "If you don’t want to kill Palestinians, if that’s what pains you so much, you don’t have to kill them. You can give them their rights, and you can end the occupation. And to put the blame for the occupation and for the killing of innocents that we are seeing in Gaza now on the Palestinians — why? Because they want a state of their own? They want what Jews wanted and achieved? This is a great moral insult."

 

[Tyger]

Part 1 of the above link -

Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"
LINK: Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents" | Democracy Now!

TEXT: "Given his background, what American Jewish leader Henry Siegman has to say about Israel’s founding in 1948 through the current assault on Gaza may surprise you. From 1978 to 1994, Siegman served as executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nation’s "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Born in Germany three years before the Nazis came to power in 1933, Siegman’s family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement that pushed for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied the religion and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, later becoming head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. In the first of our two-part interview, Siegman discusses the assault on Gaza, the myths surrounding Israel’s founding in 1948, and his own background as a German-Jewish refugee who fled Nazi occupation to later become a leading American Jewish voice and now vocal critic of Israel’s policies in the Occupied Territories.

"When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis — and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israel’s U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live. … The question of the morality of Israel’s action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldn’t Israel be doing something [to prevent] this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldn’t they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation." "

 

[Tyger]

Israel Provoked This War: It’s up to President Obama to stop it. By HENRY SIEGMAN July 22, 2014
LINK: Israel Provoked This War - Henry Siegman - POLITICO Magazine

TEXT: "There seems to be near-universal agreement in the United States with President Barack Obama’s observation that Israel, like every other country, has the right and obligation to defend its citizens from threats directed at them from beyond its borders.

"But this anodyne statement does not begin to address the political and moral issues raised by Israel’s bombings and land invasion of Gaza: who violated the cease-fire agreement that was in place since November 2012 and whether Israel’s civilian population could have been protected by nonviolent means that would not have placed Gaza’s civilian population at risk. As of this writing, the number killed by the Israel Defense Forces has surpassed 600, the overwhelming majority of whom are noncombatants.

"Israel’s assault on Gaza, as pointed out by analyst Nathan Thrall in the New York Times, was not triggered by Hamas’ rockets directed at Israel but by Israel’s determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy.

"The notion that it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated a cease-fire agreement will undoubtedly offend a wide swath of Israel supporters. To point out that it is not the first time Israel has done so will offend them even more deeply. But it was Shmuel Zakai, a retired brigadier general and former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division, and not “leftist” critics, who said about the Israel Gaza war of 2009 that during the six-month period of a truce then in place, Israel made a central error “by failing to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians in the [Gaza] Strip. … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they are in and expect Hamas just to sit around and do nothing.”

"This is true of the latest cease-fire as well. According to Thrall, Hamas is now seeking through violence what it should have obtained through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. “Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets.” It is not only Hamas supporters, but many Gazans, perhaps a majority, who believe it is worth paying a heavy price to change a disastrous status quo.

"The answer to the second question — whether a less lethal course was not available to protect Israel’s civilian population — is (unintentionally?) implicit in the formulation of President Barack Obama’s defense of Israel’s actions: namely, the right and obligation of all governments to protect their civilian populations from assaults from across their borders.

"But where, exactly, are Israel’s borders?

"Henry Siegman is president of the U.S./Middle East Project. He served as senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and non-resident research professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies of the University of London, and is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress."

 

[Wade]

Next Gaza Disaster After War With Israel: No Cement for Rebuilding - Businessweek

Let us hope that this material does go towards rebuilding civilian infrastructure firstly and not immediately towards tunnels, but I'm not holding my breath.

I suppose one could make an argument that any rebuilt tunnels would also be a conduit for the flow of useful legitimate goods because of harrasment, obstruction and/or tough unfair regulations on certain goods via the legitimate way so I don't know what the answer is but if Hamas really believes in it's proclaimed raison d'etre this would be a good place to start.

Edit: in the same issue

Hamas's Khaled Meshaal on Gaza Bloodshed, Israel's Blockade - Businessweek

 

[Wade]

This quote from the above interview w/Charlie Rose is NOT encouraging and while I can't argue with the sentiment being that i live in relative freedom here in the states it tells me that this will still be going on until the alien grays come down and take the bull by the horns. The full context appears in the article.

"... You think the key is trust. We actually are enemies. They are the occupiers. The solution doesn’t start with trust. … How could I trust my enemy... We had a number of negotations. The negotiations failed..."

On the brighter side there is this

"....
Will you pledge not to eradicate Israel? Do you want to live in coexistence with Israel?


I do not coexist with occupation and with settlements. Do you think that Palestinians who suffer from occupation and settlements can eradicate Israel? No, this is beguiling, misleading propaganda. … We in Hamas believe in moderation of Islam. We are not fanatics. We do not fight the Jews because they are Jews per se. We fight the occupiers. I’m ready to coexist with the Jews, with the Christians, with the Arabs, with the non-Arabs. I do coexist with other religions. … When we have a Palestinian state, then the Palestinian people can have their say. There are disproportionate standards, but we have the upper hand. Every single occupation ends, and the people are victorious.

 

[Tyger]

We now know why Israel invoked it's censorship agreement with the NY Times regarding the 'captured' soldier. It was precisely because the soldier had not been captured and the Israelis knew that nearly from the get-go of the accusation that they used to justify breaking the cease-fire.

Missing Soldier Killed in Battle, Israel Confirms
LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/w...0140803&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=54852892&_r=0

TEXT: "JERUSALEM — The Israeli military said early Sunday morning that an officer thought to have been captured by Palestinian militants during a deadly clash Friday morning, which shattered a planned 72-hour cease-fire, was now considered to have been killed in battle.

"The announcement came just hours after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to continue Israel’s military campaign in the Gaza Strip as long as necessary to stop Hamas attacks, while suggesting a de-escalation of the ground war in Gaza may be near.

"The case of the missing soldier, Second Lt. Hadar Goldin, 23, became the latest flash point in the conflict, prompting a fierce Israeli bombardment and calls from leaders around the world for his release. His disappearance came after Hamas militants ambushed Israeli soldiers near the southern border town of Rafah, at the start of what was supposed to have been a pause in the fighting.

"As the death toll mounted Saturday to more than 1,650 Palestinians, many of them women and children, and images of homes, mosques and schools smashed into rubble filled the media, Mr. Netanyahu was under considerable international pressure, from Washington and Europe, to end the conflict. The United Nations warned of “an unfolding health disaster” in Gaza with little electricity, bad water and a lack of medical supplies.

"At the same time, Mr. Netanyahu was under political pressure at home to deliver on his promises to crush Hamas, particularly with 64 Israeli soldiers dead. He insisted Saturday that Hamas had been severely hurt and he warned that it would pay “an intolerable price” if it continues to fire rockets at Israel.

His former deputy defense minister, Danny Danon, who was fired by Mr. Netanyahu for public criticism of the government, said in a statement Saturday that “the cabinet is gravely mistaken in its decision to withdraw forces from Gaza. This is a step in the wrong direction.”

But Mr. Netanyahu, in a nationally televised speech with his defense minister beside him, insisted that Israel was achieving its goals and could alter its tactics. “We promised to return the quiet to Israel’s citizens, and we will continue to act until that aim is achieved,” Mr. Netanyahu said. “We will take as much time as necessary, and will exert as much force as needed.”

[...]

"Hours before the military announced that Lieutenant Goldin had died, his parents called on the prime minister and the army not to leave their son behind.

"The circumstances surrounding his death remained cloudy. A military spokeswoman declined to say whether Lieutenant Goldin had been killed along with two comrades by a suicide bomb one of the militants exploded, or later by Israel’s assault on the area to hunt for him; she also refused to answer whether his remains had been recovered.

[...]

" “Until now, we have no idea about the disappearance of the Israeli soldier,” the statement said. Saying the leadership had lost touch with its “troops deployed in the ambush,” the statement added, “Our account is that the soldier could have been kidnapped and killed together with our fighters.” "

 

[Wade]

The thing I question about this whole mess is this.

While it should surprise no one that Israel has a strong sponsor in the form of the u.s. The Palestinians (in theory) shouldn't be wanting. Although I haven't looked into it there SHOULD be plenty of financial...not necessarily tangible aid...flowing in from the Gulf states. Hamas does have a sponsor in the form of Iran but that's different, I'm talking about the people. If the people are living in substandard conditions, aside from any Israeli interference, that leads me to think the any money coming from Gulf countries is misused by Hamas and Fatah or perhaps there is little...my guess is the former...money coming in because the Gulf states know that it is a lost cost because it will be misused but in the spirit of unity say nothing as it's more convenient to blame Israel...and they are not blameless.

All of which goes back to an unspoken sentiment from an earlier post. I think Ararat was a grandstanding pompous self - important pig, the PLO and it's bastard offspring are less about the plight of the Palestinians and more about themselves and the Palestinian people deserve much, much better. But I do wish that Israeli would take it down a few notches.

 

[Bananas]

I have to, again, stress that I don't support what Israel is doing at all before I write my post.

What do you think would happen if Israel would lift he siege, abolished the discrimatory laws and took the Palestinians into Israel with equal rights? Think about the consequences of that from an Israeli point of view.

 

[Ufocurious]

I have to, again, stress that I don't support what Israel is doing at all before I write my post.

What do you think would happen if Israel would lift he siege, abolished the discrimatory laws and took the Palestinians into Israel with equal rights? Think about the consequences of that from an Israeli point of view.

TERRORISM by a tiny minority. Israel has gone too far. Dividing the countries and giving Palestine the settlements built in the last years may be the answer. But even then...

 

[Bananas]

TERRORISM by a tiny minority. Israel has gone too far. Dividing the countries and giving Palestine the settlements built in the last years may be the answer. But even then...

You *do* know that Hamas was elected into power democratically, right? As in, the majority of Palestinians support it?

To prevent flaming, I again stress that I'm simply presenting a question, not making any statements.

 

[Wade]

I have to, again, stress that I don't support what Israel is doing at all before I write my post.

What do you think would happen if Israel would lift he siege, abolished the discrimatory laws and took the Palestinians into Israel with equal rights? Think about the consequences of that from an Israeli point of view.

I was just thinking of a similar point when I logged back in.

Well, i'm probably going to get flamed for saying this I was thinking that I wouldn't put my money on peace and understanding filling the region. The damage has been done, too much blood hate (to be manipulated ) . there are no do- overs and there will be no global epiphany even if there was the remotest possibility of Palestine achieving it's own state. There is always the law of unintended consequences to contend with. Just like when the wall came down and the divide between eastern and western Europe came down, that which was Yugoslavia came down with it. I don't know if there is a "reverse" correlation from a historical perspective but that was the first thing to cross my mind.

In a similar vein, there is another divide in the region that was established for any modern intervention that whole Sunni- Shia divide, and Hamas-Fatah...although that divide seems more based on what to do with Israeli, not so religious differences. And then there is the tribal differences, The point being the region can't even agree or argue amongst themselves without taking up arms about it. Even if the Israelis weren't there to take the heat there would be some blood feud going on but the nation of Israel does make for a convenient scratching post. Whether the state does or does not have the right to exist or who was there first is a thing of the past or even distant past depending on how long one wants to go, but like it or not it's there.

As far as the absorption of Palestine into Israel that didnt cross my mind but I do believe there was period where Palestine took a number of jewish refugees into it's domain before the creation of Israel, and shortly afterwards found their land taken right out from under their feet without a say in the matter, no good deed goes unpunished I guess.