February 1, 2015 — Burnt State

[Soupie]

Can altered states of consciousness be adaptive?

Briefly outlined in this paper is a potential trickster mechanism (at least as interpreted by Froese and then by me of Froese) described at the neurobiological level. Very fascinating!

Optimization in “self-modeling” complex adaptive systems

When a dynamical system with multiple point attractors is released from an arbitrary initial condition, it will relax into a configuration that locally resolves the constraints or opposing forces between interdependent state variables. However, when there are many conflicting interdependencies between variables, finding a configuration that globally optimizes these constraints by this method is unlikely or may take many attempts. Here, we show that a simple distributed mechanism can incrementally alter a dynamical system such that it finds lower energy configurations, more reliably and more quickly. Specifically, when Hebbian learning is applied to the connections of a simple dynamical system undergoing repeated relaxation, the system will develop an associative memory that amplifies a subset of its own attractor states. This modifies the dynamics of the system such that its ability to find configurations that minimize total system energy, and globally resolve conflicts between interdependent variables, is enhanced. Moreover, we show that the system is not merely “recalling” low energy states that have been previously visited but “predicting” their location by generalizing over local attractor states that have already been visited. This “self-modeling” framework, i.e., a system that augments its behavior with an associative memory of its own attractors, helps us better understand the conditions under which a simple locally mediated mechanism of self-organization can promote significantly enhanced global resolution of conflicts between the components of a complex adaptive system. We illustrate this process in random and modular network constraint problems equivalent to graph coloring and distributed task allocation problems. © 2010 Wiley Periodicals, Inc. Complexity 16: 17–26, 2011​

If I follow correctly, Froese is suggesting that the mechanism which might alter the system (in our case, the brain) leading to a lower energy (optimal) configuration may be induced altered states. In the trickster case, I would simply suggest it is spontaneous altered states.

That is, the brain will periodically--or perhaps during a state of high conflict--undergo a process in which the system "resets" and a less conflicted, more optimal state emerges.

Subjectively, this would be experienced as a state of stress, confusion, fear, etc., followed by a spontaneous, destabilizing, altered state/paranormal experience, and conclude with newly acquired feelings of peace, love, and oneness.

 

[smcder]

Briefly outlined in this paper is a potential trickster mechanism (at least as interpreted by Froese and then by me of Froese) described at the neurobiological level. Very fascinating!

Optimization in “self-modeling” complex adaptive systems

When a dynamical system with multiple point attractors is released from an arbitrary initial condition, it will relax into a configuration that locally resolves the constraints or opposing forces between interdependent state variables. However, when there are many conflicting interdependencies between variables, finding a configuration that globally optimizes these constraints by this method is unlikely or may take many attempts. Here, we show that a simple distributed mechanism can incrementally alter a dynamical system such that it finds lower energy configurations, more reliably and more quickly. Specifically, when Hebbian learning is applied to the connections of a simple dynamical system undergoing repeated relaxation, the system will develop an associative memory that amplifies a subset of its own attractor states. This modifies the dynamics of the system such that its ability to find configurations that minimize total system energy, and globally resolve conflicts between interdependent variables, is enhanced. Moreover, we show that the system is not merely “recalling” low energy states that have been previously visited but “predicting” their location by generalizing over local attractor states that have already been visited. This “self-modeling” framework, i.e., a system that augments its behavior with an associative memory of its own attractors, helps us better understand the conditions under which a simple locally mediated mechanism of self-organization can promote significantly enhanced global resolution of conflicts between the components of a complex adaptive system. We illustrate this process in random and modular network constraint problems equivalent to graph coloring and distributed task allocation problems. © 2010 Wiley Periodicals, Inc. Complexity 16: 17–26, 2011​

If I follow correctly, Froese is suggesting that the mechanism which might alter the system (in our case, the brain) leading to a lower energy (optimal) configuration may be induced altered states. In the trickster case, I would simply suggest it is spontaneous altered states.

That is, the brain will periodically--or perhaps during a state of high conflict--undergo a process in which the system "resets" and a less conflicted, more optimal state emerges.

Subjectively, this would be experienced as a state of stress, confusion, fear, etc., followed by a spontaneous, destabilizing, altered state/paranormal experience, and conclude with newly acquired feelings of peace, love, and oneness.

Froese specifically applies this to the Trickster idea?

 

[smcder]

Froese specifically applies this to the Trickster idea?

I was pretty enamored of ANN back in the day, went so far as to look at an AI grad program in Tx and another time tried to hunt down Mark Tilden (BEAM robotics) in NM but my guide's car broke down and we missed him.

 

[Soupie]

Froese specifically applies this to the Trickster idea?

No, he applies it to the idea that induced ASC can be adaptive. I then applied to the idea that the trickster phenomenon and spontaneous ASC are related.

 

[smcder]

Those of you who liked

Amazon.com: Vehicles: Experiments in Synthetic Psychology (9780262521123): Valentino Braitenberg: Books

Would like BEAM

Main Page - BEAM Robotics Wiki

Parts, kits, etc for the experimentalist here:

Solarbotics

Tilden built his early models from discarded Walkmen and other electronic waste.

 

[smcder]

No, he applies it to the idea that induced ASC can be adaptive. I then applied to the idea that the trickster phenomenon and spontaneous ASC are related.

Now you are doing something interesting with the idea! ANN has to be trained of course - presumably in your model other parts of the brain would have to do this the way humans do for ANN now?

 

[Soupie]

By altered state of mind, I'm identifying states of mind in which one is experiencing sensory hallucinations.

On the contrary, perhaps humans (and other organisms) would be just fine without the capacity to experience altered states of mind. (I doubt it though.)

Without the capacity - or the actual experience? At the individual level or ... ? Why do you doubt it? Can we conceive of individuals without the capacity to hallucinate? Why or why not?

Without the capacity. I can conceive of it, sure. Because we often think of our experiences as non-hallucinatory.

One study from as early as 1895

[45] reported that approximately 10% of the population experiences hallucinations. A 1996-1999 survey of over 13,000 people[46] reported a much higher figure, with almost 39% of people reporting hallucinatory experiences, 27% of which daytime hallucinations, mostly outside the context of illness or drug use. From this survey, olfactory (smell) and gustatory (taste) hallucinations seem the most common in the general population.

How do we know the other 61% have the capacity and should they be worried?

We don't. How do we know that they don't. And how do we know that their reports of not having hallucinations are correct?

The UFO experience—and similar paranormal experiences—may be related to altered states of consciousness involving specific molecule families.

Some may be and if so, it doesn't mean all are. I would think states involve chemical changes - the evidence indicates that mental states correlate with physical states. Which specific molecule families do you have in mind?

Tryptamines.

A few psychiatrists and neuroscientists are suggesting that giving people hallucinogenic drugs has positive effects on their lives and thus their loved ones.

I think there are several good studies that under controlled clinical settings they do. I don't know if this has been controlled for the clinical and effects alone but it seems reasonable some of them have.

There are also historical accounts of Shamanic-like ritually induced ACS in many cultures having more or less positive effects.

People report experiencing spontaneous altered states of consciousness, presumably caused by endogenous molecules or other processes. This may be an epiphenomenal byproduct of evolution, or it may be a capacity that has been adaptive in the (social) niches in which humans find themselves.

I notice that here you make the move from "involving" to "presumably caused".

I dont think we know exactly why people have spontaneous hallucinations. Probably many causes. Im not sure if non-typical brain molecules are involved in all instances of hallucinations.

I was compelled to suggest they were due to the recent experiments with psilocybin showing that its use was deemed helpful to those suffering from death anxiety.

How do you see that the introudction of a hallucinogen in a clinical setting is evidence for altered states being adaptive?

My very informal hypothesis is that ASC are a capacity that organisms have which essentially promotes problem solving. ASC occur spontaneously or by induction—or every night whilst sleeping for most people—and out of these states come new ideas, feelings, and at times behaviors.

That patients report positive, lasting effects from induced ASC might suggest that spontaneous ASC may also have positive effects.

 

[smcder]

No, he applies it to the idea that induced ASC can be adaptive. I then applied to the idea that the trickster phenomenon and spontaneous ASC are related.

"Spontaneous"? In your example there are a number of possible triggers (stressors) so what is the just so story of

How Joe Got His ASC?

 

[smcder]

Without the capacity. I can conceive of it, sure. Because we often think of our experiences as non-hallucinatory.


We don't. Know do we know that they don't. And how do we know that their reports of not having hallucinations are correct?


Tryptamines.


There are also historical accounts of Shamanic-like ritually induced ACS in many cultures having more or less positive effects.


I dont think we know exactly why people have spontaneous hallucinations. Probably many causes. Im not sure if non-typical brain molecules are involved in all instances of hallucinations.


My very informal hypothesis is that ASC are a capacity that organisms have which essentially promotes problem solving. ASC occur spontaneously or by induction—or every night whilst sleeping for most people—and out of these states come new ideas,nfeelings, and at times behaviors.

Artists may cultivate these states intentionally (Surrealism) in order to ...

See the rest of my response on the C&P.

 

[Soupie]

"Spontaneous"? In your example there are a number of possible triggers (stressors) so what is the just so story of

How Joe Got His ASC?

By spontaneous, I simply mean that the individual did not purposefully induce the ASC.

If we think of dreaming as the ultimate, non-induced ASC, then it doesn't seem that they are necessarily triggered by stress or cognitive conflict.

Im curious about Strassman's book about (spontaneous?) prophetic states of consciousness and what their onset might be.

 

[smcder]

By spontaneous, I simply mean that the individual did not purposefully induce the ASC.

If we think of dreaming as the ultimate, non-induced ASC, then it doesn't seem that they are necessarily triggered by stress or cognitive conflict.

Im curious about Strassman's book about (spontaneous?) prophetic states of consciousness and what their onset might be.

We have a copy in the library .., I'll try to pick it up next week.

 

[Soupie]

Anomalous experiences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anomalous experiences, such as so-called benign hallucinations, may occur in a person in a state of good mental and physical health, even in the apparent absence of a transient trigger factor such as fatigue, intoxication or sensory deprivation.

It is now widely recognized that hallucinatory experiences are not merely the prerogative of those suffering from mental illness, or normal people in abnormal states, but that they occur spontaneously in a significant proportion of the normal population, when in good health and not undergoing particular stress or other abnormal circumstance.

The evidence for this statement has been accumulating for more than a century. Studies of benign hallucinatory experiences go back to 1886 and the early work of the Society for Psychical Research,[1][2] which suggested approximately 10% of the population had experienced at least one hallucinatory episode in the course of their life. More recent studies have validated these findings; the precise incidence found varies with the nature of the episode and the criteria of ‘hallucination’ adopted, but the basic finding is now well-supported.[3]​

 

[Burnt State]

re: the role of the hallucination

I've been poking around the literature about hallucinations and they seem to appear for a variety of reasons, both chemically induced from external ingestion or changes ininternal chemistry, or even blood pressure from fear pressing on the right areas to reveal hallucinatory effects for the perceiver. I've also been wondering if the brain is actually something we place too much emphasis on as opposed to looking at it as just a very advanced tool. If there are more electrical impulses centred around the heart then perhaps the brain's role in our lives may have become overvalued in human history because of the brain's love of patterns. Our many languages, math, science & art included all centre around the defining, describing and evolving of patterns all around us. We build societies and social control mechanisms through these patterns and have invented abstract, hallucinatory experiences such as consumerism and the internet as a consequence. Isn't life just a controlled hallucination that we have all agreed is the norm?

What would the world be like if we had decided to place more emphasis on emotions and developed sophistication around emotional drives and communications, focussing more and more on the emotions of the collective as opposed to creating hierarchal structures based on our patterns of power?

Perhaps, the great power of the hallucination is that it does two great things: it is a provider of intense emotion and its narrative works against current patterns creating anti-structure narratives. Both of these serve to create change in society.

The subject of our hallucinations is primarily a spontaneous burst of images that come from our own memory reservoir as we try to interact with our external environment. The hallucinatory elements, being a combination of external and internal imagery, produce effects on a sliding scale across that spectrum depending on the chemistry at work.

The brain's base function, to make us learning and evolving agents, uses images to teach and to help the rest of the body with whatever tasks are at hand. Greg Bishop related to me a Doctor's series of NDE's who felt that the "life flashing before your eyes" image wash was the brain looking through the catalogue of image memory for a possible solution to the dilemma at hand - dying.

The value of the anti-structure hallucination, brought back to the tribe, are the new patterns for society, new narratives for us to use to become more dynamic entities in the environment. Survival and growth may well be tied to new variables and new narratives to avoid a static homogenous society doomed to ultimate failure. Consequently, I see the entheogens as a natural process, like dreaming, all geared towards the creation of anti-structure narratives. Depending on the nature of the tribe and the social control mechanisms in place, we may choose to use these new images and narratives for everyone's benefit or incarcerate people. The ability to imagine a new way of doing things seems to be about chance biological structures - it is what our brain tool does. Depending on how the individual has been socialized you may be very happy with the nature of the social controls around you or you may have been trained to be a seeker/shaman instead. imho we are a society that greatly undervalues the role of our heart.

 

[Burnt State]

Consciousness as Metaphorical

We interpret present phenomena in the light of past experience. Regardless of the predictive efficacy of this technique we are "understanding one thing in terms of another," as Georgee Lakoff defines metaphors. We use the past as metaphor to apprehend the present. Our cognitive processes, our thoughts and consciousness, are based entirely on metaphor.

from Christopher Dewdney's The Secular Grail: Paradigms of Perception

I've been reading through Dewdney again and his sleights of mind, discourses on dreams, language, and symbol via his thoughts on Freud, Jung, linguistics and Nietzsche. If all is metaphor then the paranormal vision and sometimes the altered state is really just an assemblage of images trying to help us make sense of something possibly unfamiliar but that may have parallels in our image reservoir.

So the sightings in the sky of objects that are just ahead of our own technology appear as such because of the comparative frameworks our mind uses to understand anything. At the turn of the century it looked like an airship, and then later black triangles, or the saucers called up out from our own collective imagination and social representations of what the alien craft are supposed to look like. But as these images are co-created events, our minds using metaphor to interpret an unknown stimulus, we should be prepared to accept that the source of the stimulus may have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with extraterrestrials but is just the best comparative we can work with. What complicates things is that past reports have since entered into our minds' metaphorical frameworks even though at the time airships were simply populated by humanoids that looked just like us, who maybe came from somewhere just nearby. We have mutated the past recorded images of the paranormal the way that when you stare at something in a dream it immediately starts to mutate.

What I wanted to add to the post above this one regarding hallucinations is that these are deconstructions of reality. Anti-structure events help us to deconstruct existing paradigms. These deconstructions help to lead to new paradigms taking root in society. What should never be forgotten is the root agent of this deconstructive process: the human perceiver. The anomalous stimulus is merely an instigator and has little to do with the end result, for it really could be something as natural as the weather, or insect hordes flying past us that are normally invisible to our own sensory apparatus but may become visible given the right context. I would not apply this to all UFO sightings, but it is a possibility to help us understand our experience of the phenomenon, what happens after the experience, and highlights who the perceiver is prior to the phenomenon being experienced. The missing unknown variable, the phenomenon itself, remains elusive and mostly unquantifiable. but it's only 25% of the full equation. And even then, the stimulus might also originate from within, given just how internal & liminal an experience these states are.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Consciousness as Metaphorical

We interpret present phenomena in the light of past experience. Regardless of the predictive efficacy of this technique we are "understanding one thing in terms of another," as Georgee Lakoff defines metaphors. We use the past as metaphor to apprehend the present. Our cognitive processes, our thoughts and consciousness, are based entirely on metaphor.

from Christopher Dewdney's The Secular Grail: Paradigms of Perception

I've been reading through Dewdney again and his sleights of mind, discourses on dreams, language, and symbol via his thoughts on Freud, Jung, linguistics and Nietzsche. If all is metaphor then the paranormal vision and sometimes the altered state is really just an assemblage of images trying to help us make sense of something possibly unfamiliar but that may have parallels in our image reservoir.

So the sightings in the sky of objects that are just ahead of our own technology appear as such because of the comparative frameworks our mind uses to understand anything. At the turn of the century it looked like an airship, and then later black triangles, or the saucers called up out from our own collective imagination and social representations of what the alien craft are supposed to look like. But as these images are co-created events, our minds using metaphor to interpret an unknown stimulus, we should be prepared to accept that the source of the stimulus may have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with extraterrestrials but is just the best comparative we can work with. What complicates things is that past reports have since entered into our minds' metaphorical frameworks even though at the time airships were simply populated by humanoids that looked just like us, who maybe came from somewhere just nearby. We have mutated the past recorded images of the paranormal the way that when you stare at something in a dream it immediately starts to mutate.

What I wanted to add to the post above this one regarding hallucinations is that these are deconstructions of reality. Anti-structure events help us to deconstruct existing paradigms. These deconstructions help to lead to new paradigms taking root in society. What should never be forgotten is the root agent of this deconstructive process: the human perceiver. The anomalous stimulus is merely an instigator and has little to do with the end result, for it really could be something as natural as the weather, or insect hordes flying past us that are normally invisible to our own sensory apparatus but may become visible given the right context. I would not apply this to all UFO sightings, but it is a possibility to help us understand our experience of the phenomenon, what happens after the experience, and highlights who the perceiver is prior to the phenomenon being experienced. The missing unknown variable, the phenomenon itself, remains elusive and mostly unquantifiable. but it's only 25% of the full equation. And even then, the stimulus might also originate from within, given just how internal & liminal an experience these states are.

BS thanks for the book reference. I was able to find a "like new" copy on eBay for a couple dollars with free shipping. I look forward to reading it.

 

[smcder]

So are suggesting that you don't think the capacity to experience altered states is adaptive?

Or are you saying it simply can't be proved? Or that I havent proved it?

Or are you saying that TENS in general is flawed?

And if you are not saying any of those things, what are you saying?


As far as my wording, I dont disagree. I didnt bother to choose it carefully. We both know that TENS excludes intentionality.

As far as looking under the street lamp, what would you suggest? If experiencing altered states is not adaptive, is it a mere epiphenomenon? We just happen to have this capacity for no particular reason? A byproduct of other adaptive abilities or, eh, other epiphenomenal capacities?

Im being sincere. Are you suggesting capacities evolve because we, as individuals, want them to or value them? Im all for straying away from the street lights.


As noted, the wording was not chosen carefully. And as you know, its certainly not uncommon for even serious scientists to use such short hand.

But to suggest that certain random mutations lead to random capacities that just so happen to confer an adaptive, temporary advantage to an temporary organism existing in a particular temporary niche is not incoherent. And i suggest that our capacity to experience altered states may be just such a capacity.

Or not.


Spontaneous here means the altered state manifests without the intention of the individual.

So Joe going through a really stressful situation in his life. Death of a child, divorce, affair, fired, etc. He is driving on a back road and unbeknowst to him, certain endogenous molecules become active in his brain and he has a powerful, paranormal experience. Life changing perhaps. As a result, he views life differently. He shares his experience with others. Or perhaps he does not, but those close to him note a distinct difference in Joes behavior.

Or maybe not. Maybe, as you say, the capacity to experience altered states is epiphenomenal. It doesnt help us survive at all, but it doesnt kill us, make us unfit, so it persits in the gene pool.


Re: the pudgy guy.

Cant there be multiple adaptive behaviors/strategies for passing on ones genes? The fact that both studs and pudgies have differing ways of passing on genes doesnt mean that they are not both adaptive.

Having said all that, if you recall from many, many posts ago in a different discussion, ive said that I am very open to the idea the NS is not the main driving force behind evolution. So i dont disagree with what you are saying/questioning.

While its not my primary interest right now, im very curious how the apparent teleology/intentionality of living systems plays with the notion of a causal determined physical world.

While its not my primary interest right now, im very curious how the apparent teleology/intentionality of living systems plays with the notion of a causal determined physical world.

Say more?

 

[smcder]

Briefly outlined in this paper is a potential trickster mechanism (at least as interpreted by Froese and then by me of Froese) described at the neurobiological level. Very fascinating!

Optimization in “self-modeling” complex adaptive systems

When a dynamical system with multiple point attractors is released from an arbitrary initial condition, it will relax into a configuration that locally resolves the constraints or opposing forces between interdependent state variables. However, when there are many conflicting interdependencies between variables, finding a configuration that globally optimizes these constraints by this method is unlikely or may take many attempts. Here, we show that a simple distributed mechanism can incrementally alter a dynamical system such that it finds lower energy configurations, more reliably and more quickly. Specifically, when Hebbian learning is applied to the connections of a simple dynamical system undergoing repeated relaxation, the system will develop an associative memory that amplifies a subset of its own attractor states. This modifies the dynamics of the system such that its ability to find configurations that minimize total system energy, and globally resolve conflicts between interdependent variables, is enhanced. Moreover, we show that the system is not merely “recalling” low energy states that have been previously visited but “predicting” their location by generalizing over local attractor states that have already been visited. This “self-modeling” framework, i.e., a system that augments its behavior with an associative memory of its own attractors, helps us better understand the conditions under which a simple locally mediated mechanism of self-organization can promote significantly enhanced global resolution of conflicts between the components of a complex adaptive system. We illustrate this process in random and modular network constraint problems equivalent to graph coloring and distributed task allocation problems. © 2010 Wiley Periodicals, Inc. Complexity 16: 17–26, 2011​

If I follow correctly, Froese is suggesting that the mechanism which might alter the system (in our case, the brain) leading to a lower energy (optimal) configuration may be induced altered states. In the trickster case, I would simply suggest it is spontaneous altered states.

That is, the brain will periodically--or perhaps during a state of high conflict--undergo a process in which the system "resets" and a less conflicted, more optimal state emerges.

Subjectively, this would be experienced as a state of stress, confusion, fear, etc., followed by a spontaneous, destabilizing, altered state/paranormal experience, and conclude with newly acquired feelings of peace, love, and oneness.

Thanks ... now my paracast software is flooding me with advertisements for Neural Network Software .... and how do you think it knew??

Briefly outlined in this paper is a potential trickster mechanism (at least as interpreted by Froese and then by me of Froese) described at the neurobiological level. Very fascinating!

Optimization in “self-modeling” complex adaptive systems

When a dynamical system with multiple point attractors is released from an arbitrary initial condition, it will relax into a configuration that locally resolves the constraints or opposing forces between interdependent state variables. However, when there are many conflicting interdependencies between variables, finding a configuration that globally optimizes these constraints by this method is unlikely or may take many attempts. Here, we show that a simple distributed mechanism can incrementally alter a dynamical system such that it finds lower energy configurations, more reliably and more quickly. Specifically, when Hebbian learning is applied to the connections of a simple dynamical system undergoing repeated relaxation, the system will develop an associative memory that amplifies a subset of its own attractor states. This modifies the dynamics of the system such that its ability to find configurations that minimize total system energy, and globally resolve conflicts between interdependent variables, is enhanced. Moreover, we show that the system is not merely “recalling” low energy states that have been previously visited but “predicting” their location by generalizing over local attractor states that have already been visited. This “self-modeling” framework, i.e., a system that augments its behavior with an associative memory of its own attractors, helps us better understand the conditions under which a simple locally mediated mechanism of self-organization can promote significantly enhanced global resolution of conflicts between the components of a complex adaptive system. We illustrate this process in random and modular network constraint problems equivalent to graph coloring and distributed task allocation problems. © 2010 Wiley Periodicals, Inc. Complexity 16: 17–26, 2011​

If I follow correctly, Froese is suggesting that the mechanism which might alter the system (in our case, the brain) leading to a lower energy (optimal) configuration may be induced altered states. In the trickster case, I would simply suggest it is spontaneous altered states.

That is, the brain will periodically--or perhaps during a state of high conflict--undergo a process in which the system "resets" and a less conflicted, more optimal state emerges.

Subjectively, this would be experienced as a state of stress, confusion, fear, etc., followed by a spontaneous, destabilizing, altered state/paranormal experience, and conclude with newly acquired feelings of peace, love, and oneness.

Printed this sucker off ... gonna see if I can still work through the math ...

 

[smcder]

We have a copy in the library .., I'll try to pick it up next week.

we have it, will check it out