Fascinating Old Chronoscopes - 1950's

[Tyger]

Not sure if this kind of thread is already somewhere here but I think these old chronoscopes are fascinating for umpteen reasons - history most of all, but they show us how very far we really have come in the last 60 years. Just in terms of the public's sophistication with scientific concepts.

I will be posting more historical videos on this thread. I find them compelling. Especially the Longines Watch commercial at the end of what was just over a 12:00 minute program.

Here is one chronoscope from 1954. At about just past 11:00, the 'Flying Saucer' question is posed.
Consider, too, that Sputnik was only 3 years away - this seems so far away from the 'Space Race'.

Longines Chronoscope - Flying Saucers. (200LW359)

TEXT: "DECEMBER 1, 1954 Participants: Minton Rosen, head, Rocket Development for Naval Research Laboratories, interviewed by Larry Lesueur and Lou Cioffi. Topics: Rockets, satellites, space travel, moon exploration, and flying saucers. (200LW359)"

 

[Tyger]

This chronoscope is 6 months prior to the one linked in the preceeding post. One can see the line of thought the journalists were pursuing in their questions - they were zeroing in on the military applications, while the scientist is trying to beat back the idea of a militarized space program. It's interesting to see the limiting nature of the scientist's culturally determined contexual thinking.

The UFO question is posed at just past approx 9:30.

Longines Chronoscope - Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) sightings (200LW568)

TEXT: "AUGUST 16, 1954 Participants: J. Gordon Baethe, space researcher, Office of Naval Research, interviewed by Larry Lesueur and Kenneth Crawford. Topics: Building a space platform, developing rockets, space survival and travel, and Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) sightings. (200LW568)"

 

[Tyger]

There is such an open innocence in these people talking about all of this.

1950 FLYING SAUCER REPORT

TEXT: "A report from the 1950's. I do not have much information about this one. If you have any details please let me know."

 

[Tyger]

1952 Flying Saucer Report

TEXT: "Old footage from 1952 concerning the "Flying Saucer Mystery" Historical significance"

 

[Tyger]

1954 BOAC Boeing Stratocruiser sighting Captain James Howard

TEXT: "Captain James Howard decribed the sighting he had in 1954, as a pilot for BOAC."



Captain James Howard reflects on his sighting of 1954 (BOAC)

TEXT: "1954 BOAC sighting by Captain James Howard, crew, and passengers."

 

[Tyger]

Ooops - as I knew might happen, I am deviating from my timeframe. Here's a good one from the 1960's. But note the change in rationale. Very different 'feel'.

1966 CBS REPORTS UFO Friend Foe Or Fantasy?

TEXT: "Excellent program from 1966. Features J Allen Hynek & Donald Keyhoe."

This is a link to the entire program - the above is only the first 7 or 8 minutes. This is the full hour program. The old mid-60's commercials are left in - one is about the IBM Computer's uses in education. Very different 'feel' from the chromoscopes of the early 50's. The cultural change is significant.

UFO FRIEND FOE OR FANTASY 1966

TEXT: "CBS Reports take a look at the UFO subject in the 1960s"

 

[Tyger]

Back to the 1950's. Here is the Mike Wallace interview of Major Kehoe in 1958. At 3:30 Kehoe mentions the idea that Mars is a UFO base since it was observed back then that UFO activity corresponded to the orbit of Mars in relation to Earth. He talks about a Canadian project that is studying Mars looking into this idea.

Major Donald Keyhoe Mike Wallce Full interview 3/8/58

TEXT: "Former Marine Air Corps Major Donald Keyhoe, director of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, conducted an investigation of the existence of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). Keyhoe talks to Wallace about the United States military, reports of UFO sightings, the various theories explaining UFOs, government cover-ups, and the possibility of interplanetary war."

 

[boomerang]

Some interesting footage. Based on my own hazy memories (I was born in 1951) and historical accounts of the UFO phenomenon in the 1950's, I'm convinced that more people were seeing UFOs in that era than today. Quite a number of high ranking, active service military people were coming forward to admit their concern. Something almost unthinkable today.

 

[manxman]

wow i think you are the only one here older than me, 1959.

its hard to tell whether the 50s were innocent days, and the ufo subject a fascination, full of possibilities, or whether it was all a smoke screen, personally i think the authorities got twitchy, and the department of 'stamp it out' was set loose on the field, theres nothing surer than a decades long, well organised campaign has been waged against the ufo subject, and has carried thru to a new arena in a new age the net, many more foot soldiers [usefull idiots] are required today to muddy the waters, hence the usefull idiot brain training grounds such as randi's, and all the other offshoot skeptical groups that have mushroomed in the last decade, i dont think i know theres guiding hands behind it all, i know theres guiding hands, its been a 50 + year campaign of that i am in no doubt.

whether governments are affraid of hysteria, or they know we have/are being visited, i dont know.

 

[Tyger]

Some interesting footage. Based on my own hazy memories (I was born in 1951) and historical accounts of the UFO phenomenon in the 1950's, I'm convinced that more people were seeing UFOs in that era than today. Quite a number of high ranking, active service military people were coming forward to admit their concern. Something almost unthinkable today.

Same here. We 'forget' so easily - social history is such an ephemeral thing - how things really were. These old chronoscopes show so clearly how nascent a scientific awareness was back then - and how innocently certain and naive the people who saw these phenomenon were. Fascinating to see the filming taking place out-of-doors with chalkboards.

The 1966 'CBS Reports' shows the change in social acceptance. The farmer who stands angry and embittered by the behavior of strangers towards him because of his story - very different from the 50's wide-eyed eagerness for it all.

Someone here once gave a run-down of how and why the lid got put on the reports - linked to the Condon Report, I believe. (Perilously close to another word. Hope I have that name right). I read all about this stuff when I was younger but lost interest as I got older - probably linked to the lid coming down - and have forgotten much of what I read. It didn't help that the hoaxers were coming out of the woodwork. Major Kehoe under Mike Wallace's 'grilling' had to field the questions about Adamski and the Venusians (how painfully obvious Wallace's superficiality is with the long lens of history). As we came to the 60's the topic began to be peopled with a crackpot fringe.

Even the scientists don't 'wear well' across the decades. 'Reasonable' speculations by scientists back then - Mars being the site of a UFO base - would never fly as 'legitimate' science now, of course. That's 'fringe' thinking.

I have a theory that the lid came down because the phenomenon just kept happening with no ability to explain it or present as 'mastering' the information. So sweep it away - ignore it. Create a pall of non-acceptance. Have to admit it worked.

It's also been commented on certain threads here that the phenomenon has changed - from 'saucers', spinning tops, 'cigar-shaped', to just lights, then 'triangles', etc.. What's also curious is that more people are probably looking at the skies now than before - and there is a lot more 'stuff' up there that belongs to us - yet fewer incidents/reports, apparently. Though who would one report an incident to? Police? MUFON? What newspaper - those that are left - or radio/television outlet - would make the report 'front page' news? Some of the apparent lessening of incidents might be a function of how our news/information gathering works now.

 

[Tyger]

wow i think you are the only one here older than me, 1959.

Not so.

its hard to tell whether the 50s were innocent days, and the ufo subject a fascination, full of possibilities, or whether it was all a smoke screen,

Innocent they were - as well as brutal. No sentimentality will you get from me. The 50's were the McCarthy Era - and that witch-hunt that scoured the intellectual treasure of US academia was no minor earthquake/tsunami. By the 60's an odd contradiction was in motion - both locked down and conservative, and rebellious and out-of-the-box.

personally i think the authorities got twitchy, and the department of 'stamp it out' was set loose on the field, theres nothing surer than a decades long, well organised campaign has been waged against the ufo subject, and has carried thru to a new arena in a new age the net,

They couldn't explain it and the longer it went unexplained the weirder the phenomenon seemed to become.

many more foot soldiers [usefull idiots] are required today to muddy the waters, hence the usefull idiot brain training grounds such as randi's, and all the other offshoot skeptical groups that have mushroomed in the last decade, i dont think i know theres guiding hands behind it all, i know theres guiding hands, its been a 50 + year campaign of that i am in no doubt.

Here I disagree. I'm more inclined to think of it as - to use a scifi analogy - "isolated pockets of the empire still responding to ancient signals from the home-world when the war has been over for a long, long time". Bureaucracy is a blind mole - it does what it does, follows the directives, punches the time clock and goes home to RL - with no thought of the consequences of the small acts of seemingly random rules, regulations and guidelines.

Randi and skepticism is part of growing up intellectually imo - it's a 'phase' we all go through - like adolescence - torturous for ourselves and for those having to endure us while we negotiate the rapids - but necessary for a fuller life on the 'other side' of the passage.

whether governments are affraid of hysteria, or they know we have/are being visited, i dont know.

From what I understand US Presidents haven't been able to get answers. I think it's clear something is afoot but the phenomenon is beyond 'getting a-hold of' in a material kind of way - and by that I don't mean it's non-material. I just mean that - like the exasperating non-materiality of the 'paranormal' that defies material scientific analysis - so the UFO phenomenon defies 'capture' for material scientific analysis.

I am of the opinion that the current materialist scientific paradigm is impotent before this phenomenon. A shift in paradigm is necessary before any real scientific headway will be possible in both nabbing the phenomenon and successfully studying it. [Never mind communicating with it if it's actually intelligently guided.]

 

[Burnt State]

What's very interesting about the emergence of the phenomenon through mass media is a study in sociology. It's interesting to see the initial tone and who the 'experts' are that are stepping forward trying to name what is taking place in a curious manner. As we progress forward there move into the arena the mouthpiece of the powers that be who want to control how North America should think about the phenomenon. Just tracking Hynek's shifts alone tells you that attempts to control what the UFO is, how we should think about it gets closely tied to the political concerns, the nature of the influences on the nation and the different voices in contention with each other. The hopefulness of the voice of the contactee eventually comes into contact with a witch hunt philosophy of social control.

Those two positions of extreme skeptically and open, optimistic belief are still responsible for the two main ways we look at the phenomenon today, with an excluded middle that would eventually emerge, but still is rarely listened to.

 

[manxman]

i thought that only a few people actually get it, the control bit i mean, see once a site like this gets over a certain traffic thresh-hold i believe they are assigned incideous voice's, i believe i have witnessed it as the net has grown, i believe thats why truzzio left the skeptical inquirer after establishing it, as it was usurped by government men, it is why you personally fired up my antennea burnt state, and i pressured you, you started posting in the randi'esque style, i could see then you were versed in posting on skeptic sites, and why i acted with total disrespect, and i still feel 'not good' about that, however i now nearly fully believe i was wrong about you, you post some most interesting 'stuff', but i make no apologies to anyone about being protective of my favourite grey area, from the debunkers truzzio describes so well in his parting shot at csicop, as a founding member, it must of hurt him deeply to see his organisation and his publication [renamed the skeptical enquirer]usurped.

 

[Tyger]

They went all-out with this one - it will carve out an hour and a half of your life (I have yet to watch it in full) - but it's worth watching at least the first 3 minutes to get the flavor of what was clearly a labor of love.

TEXT: "Enjoy this drama-documentary, based on the experiences of Al Chop, a reporter who served as press liaison for the Pentagon during its investigation of UFO's from 1947 to the early 1950s.

Miller, Soule, and Tremayne provide the voices for the narrated portions of the film. Although the movie contains only two brief film clips to serve as photographic evidence of UFO's, the producers build a good case based on the credibility of certain UFO witnesses (airline pilots, military personnel, radar operators, etc.).

On a more subtle level, director Winston Jones pulls off a clever trick; he begins the film as a pure documentary, but he gradually modifies this approach and focuses on reporter Al Chop's personal involvement in the UFO investigation. Chop slowly changes from UFO skeptic to UFO believer

The climax is a gripping reenactment of a true incident which occurred in 1950, when a group of UFO's cruised above Washington DC for several hours. The voice of Harry Morgan is heard over the radio as an Air Force pilot whose plane is literally surrounded by UFO's, during which Al Chop and a group of bewildered military men cluster around the radar scope, watching in wide-eyed wonder. Dramatically speaking, this scene is far superior to its counterpart in `Close Encounters of the Third Kind'. The most amazing thing about this film is the fact that it was made with the full cooperation of the United States government, and every scrap of evidence it presents was made available to any and all scientific agency who wanted to examine it.

Watch it and make up your own mind about UFO's -- but you'll loose some sleep over it before you do. Note: Some reviews mistakenly identify the star of `Unidentified Flying Objects' as Tom Powers, a co-star of `Destination Moon' (1950). The star of `UFO' is actually a Los Angles newspaper reporter (not a professional actor) named Tom Powers, who portrays the real-life reporter Al Chop."

 

[manxman]

im bang into that old movie now, where chop has just gone for his security clearance check, its interesting.


edit

what a crackin name for his son 'Chip' Chip Chop

 

[Tyger]

Sigh' - I, too, got pulled in and have watched the whole film - on a day I can ill afford to be gold-bricking! Ach! But so very cool! This is why this subject is compelling. Just wish all the crazies and hoaxers weren't out there making hay/money with people's gullibility.

Also wish the government was dealing with sightings - doing the leg work with all the investigations. I don't think an organization like MUFON should be the last word or last choice to call.

There are several observations I would make about the above film - which appears to be a very serious and sober effort to make a case for UFO's. [The last 10-15 minutes of analysis of the relevant films taken - the Montana and Utah films - was fascinating. I sure hope none of this was a hoax.] The most glaring fact for me is the omission of the Roswell incident - as I have always remembered it, it was never seen as anything of merit by the investigators at the time.

The other observations is how similar the movement of the objects present then to now. In the Utah film in the detailed analysis at the end of the film we see two objects circling around each other. This is common observation of the behavior of these objects.

I am assuming the following video is a mock-up of the Washington DC UFO's - what it would have looked like perhaps. Anyone know any different?

UFO - OVNI - UFOs In Washington D.C - 62 years ago

TEXT: "1952 Washington D.C. UFO incident
The 1952 Washington D.C. UFO incident, also known as the Washington flap or the Washington National Airport Sightings, was a series of unidentified flying object reports from July 12 to July 29, 1952, over Washington D.C. The most publicized sightings took place on consecutive weekends, July 19--20 and July 26--27.

At 11:40 p.m. on Saturday, July 19, 1952, Edward Nugent, an air-traffic controller at Washington National Airport, spotted seven objects on his radar. The objects were located 15 miles south-southwest of the city; no known aircraft were in the area and the objects were not following any established flight paths. Nugent's superior, Harry Barnes, a senior air-traffic controller at the airport, watched the objects on Nugent's radarscope. He later wrote:

"We knew immediately that a very strange situation existed . . . their movements were completely radical compared to those of ordinary aircraft" (Clark, p. 653).

Barnes had two controllers check Nugent's radar; they found that it was working normally. Barnes then called National Airport's other radar center; the controller there, Howard Cocklin, told Barnes that he also had the objects on his radarscope. Furthermore, Cocklin said that by looking out of the control tower window he could see one of the objects:
"a bright orange light. I can't tell what's behind it"

 

[trainedobserver]

wow i think you are the only one here older than me, 1959.

Got you beat. 1958. There are older geezers on here, but I'm too polite to point them out. Bill Bridges.

 

[Burnt State]

i thought that only a few people actually get it, the control bit i mean, see once a site like this gets over a certain traffic thresh-hold i believe they are assigned incideous voice's, i believe i have witnessed it as the net has grown, i believe thats why truzzio left the skeptical inquirer after establishing it, as it was usurped by government men, it is why you personally fired up my antennea burnt state, and i pressured you, you started posting in the randi'esque style, i could see then you were versed in posting on skeptic sites, and why i acted with total disrespect, and i still feel 'not good' about that, however i now nearly fully believe i was wrong about you, you post some most interesting 'stuff', but i make no apologies to anyone about being protective of my favourite grey area, from the debunkers truzzio describes so well in his parting shot at csicop, as a founding member, it must of hurt him deeply to see his organisation and his publication [renamed the skeptical enquirer]usurped.

I think these are ultimately issues of the individual seeker. The Zetetic wants to keep looking, not willing to say one way or another what something is, until proper proof roles around. But, as someone who has banged his head against the wall and read, and read, and thought and thought, we are left with looking for extraordinary proof for an exceptional event. I am mostly disenchanted with where ufology has gone as a field, with a lack of real scientific study and a lot of people posing as scientists trying to convince the masses that what they have is actually science. So i bring a lot of skepticism to any event and think we should explore these thoroughly to see if there actually is anything there worth talking about. The field is loaded with people who have their own intentions and want to use ufology to further their ego (greer, romanek) or further their story and any possible cash (though i think there's very little of that to be had these days) that they can get.

So yes, you will see me being really critical, and i will probably fire up your antennae more than once again in the future as I see a lot of people faking it, hoaxing it, or magnifying unconfirmed stories, and making up shit that never actually happened but now is somehow part of the myth. I also spent a portion of my career in video and photographic arts like a bunch of folk out here and so sometimes it's really easy to see how things can be faked because you are always looking for those artifacts. There are cases I'm extremely fascinated by, and actually still quite fascinated with the field itself (biggest mystery of our time and all that) and one day i'd like answers to the two ships i saw in the sky (though i ain't holding my breath on that one). Still, I reman open minded and very critical.

Look at what Romanek did to his family, and will keep doing to his family and the public in the name of a small corner of fame. That's why the whole field needs a reset, a breakaway collection of seekers who will start to refashion the discussion, the means and the measures to perhaps say something a little more specific about these strange objects in the sky. I really like this early footage that Tyger is posting as you can see how all the energy that started this ball rolling, of independent seekers, charted out something very interesting, but were co-opted and clouded over by the voice of central control. Now things are just in a shambles. So here we all are.

 

[manxman]

the answer lies with the untainted cases of old imo, the unknowns, what else could they label them.

as for the showmen and the utterly deluded in ufology, i give them a fools pardon.

 

[Tyger]

I've come across the final 7 minutes of the 1956 film where the extended analysis of the Montana and Utah film take place.

1950 montana & 1952 Utah UFO Film (Extended Analysis)

TEXT: "The famous film shown to the CIA Robertson Panel. Apparently the film is not complete, and some frames (the best ones) were removed by those processing it."


The interview with the man who filmed the Montana film where he gives a very matter-of-fact description of what happened. I'd like to see more interviews like this.

Nick Mariana UFO Footage - 1950 - Great Falls, Montana

TEXT: "This video includes the segments of the film relating to Nick Mariana's UFO footage filmed in 16mm on August 15th, 1950 in Great Falls, Montana. Included in this video is a rehearsed but accurate interview with Nick Mariana regarding the filming as well as some breakdown analysis of the footage."