December 14th School Shootings

[Konrad Hartmann]

The monster inside my son - Salon.com

Secretly, as if committing a sacrilege, I searched online using keywords such as “autism” and “violence” and “murder.” What I found was confusing. There were roughly a dozen recent articles about heinous acts committed by people with autism and Asperger’s syndrome, but each was followed by editorials and letters written by autism advocates vigorously denying a link. There were a few studies from the ’80s and ’90s, but the results — when they showed a higher rate of violent crime among people with autism — appeared to have been quieted or dismissed.

Asperger's Disorder and Criminal Behavior: Forensic-Psychiatric Considerations

Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac Antidepressants - Pregnancy & Birth Defects

Researchers are studying not only physical birth defects, but also the long-term neurological effects of SSRIs on fetuses. One such case study reported in the Archives of General Psychiatry in July 2011 links the use of SSRIs in the first trimester of pregnancy with increased chances of a baby developing autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Although the use of antidepressants is considered a low risk factor overall for ASD, it was attributed to about 3 percent of the cases in the population.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Someone might get angry with the following thought: Why is that when I was at school, there just were not kids with allergies and all this autism spectrum conditions? Back then we did have separate schools for those very badly behaved kids - those are almost gone. I certainly remember a couple of kids who just seemed bad. Is that wrong? Did we misunderstand these kids?
Personally I am concerned about the need for society to 'medicalise' everything.

Obviously if someone is born with a brain that functions differently to the norm, if they cannot understand the emotional impact of their actions etc on others - does it not make sense to think that they might not realise the full impact of their decisions - and terrible ones too?

I certainly do not want to label any group of kids or adults as being those more likely to commit certain crimes - I fully admit I am in the dark on all this and am shooting from the hip (pardon the pun- not a joke) but the world around me (medically) seems a million miles even from the early '80s.

While I'm on it - where did all this gluten and wheat intolerance stuff come from? Are we getting less healthy? I don't remember anyone on any special diet at school and certainly not kids with ADHD etc.

 

[pixelsmith]

i dont care what ppl think of him he cares...
Obama wipes tears when speaking about school massacre – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs

We need Drone Control to keep kids from being killed by "caring" and sane leaders.

 

[Muadib]

While I'm on it - where did all this gluten and wheat intolerance stuff come from? Are we getting less healthy? I don't remember anyone on any special diet at school and certainly not kids with ADHD etc.

I'm not really sure about the allergy thing, though I am interested in it due to my brother developing a deadly peanut allergy at the age of 22. This is a kid who lived on peanut butter and peanuts in general and now can't have anything with even a trace of peanuts or he goes into anaphylactic shock. I've always wondered about that but I don't know what the cause is or even what the speculation is about potential causes.

The ADHD thing is something I'm a little more familiar with having been diagnosed with it at a young age myself. ADHD is a fairly new phenomenon but the behaviors that lead to a diagnosis are obviously not, so most medical professionals if asked would say that we're simply better at recognizing and treating these types of disorders now than we were so many years ago, and that's what leads to the higher numbers of children diagnosed with these disorders.

In my opinion, it's one of the most over diagnosed mental disorders on the planet and the results of that diagnosis can wreak havoc on a child's life. There's a large correlation between kids who get put on ADHD medication, the most widely used of which are forms of amphetamine, and kids who end up experiencing some form of drug addiction later on in life, not to mention heart problems and other side effects. It seems a bit extreme to me to medicate a child for something that is very common amongst almost all children, hyperactivity. I personally feel that the diagnosis gets thrown around a lot and should be limited to children who exhibit problems learning and are overly hyperactive. If you met me now, you would have a hard time believing that someone once diagnosed me as hyperactive, I was just a kid and kids are hyper. I don't think drugs are an appropriate response to hyperactive behavior in children.

 

[mike]

This guy while being pro gun, recognises my point about the 2nd amendment.

Third point: if enough citizens were well-armed, it would take a full-scale federal invasion to overcome them in case of, oh, secession from the federalized United States.

The feds, of course, would win in the long run, if they killed enough people, but the publicity would be devastating to the government. Think Waco multiplied by a thousand or a million.

Three armed women teachers shot Adam Lanza in a classroom « Jon Rappoport's Blog

And i get the whole psychiatric aspect

In the July editions of both Psychology Today and The Psychiatric Times, the same editorial, written by Dr. Allen Frances, America’s most influential psychiatrist, spelled out a clear position:



“Guns do kill people and the number of people depends on the number of guns and the number of rounds they can fire in a given period of time.”



Of course, no mention is made of the psychiatric drugs that induce violence and murder.


Dr. Frances sums up his unequivocal position: “We really have only two choices…accept mass murder as part of the American way of life, or…get in line with rest of the civilized world and adopt sane gun control policies.”

But whats the solution ? stop using drugs to treat mental problems ?

For me the intrinsic value of the 2nd amendment is it was a reaction to a situation, laws should be flexible, they should evolve with the times.

Though if i had to bet my house on it i'd say the end result will be the second choice

Accept mass murder as part of the American way of life

 

[mike]

This i have to say is pretty strange

SANDY HOOK And AURORA AreBOTH In The Dark Knight Rising

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

This i have to say is pretty strange

SANDY HOOK And AURORA AreBOTH In The Dark Knight Rising

So, I don't know if I should ask this, but are there other locations that we should be looking out for?

 

[Wade]

This i have to say is pretty strange

SANDY HOOK And AURORA AreBOTH In The Dark Knight Rising

How on earth did you come across this article? did you do a search for parallels between sandy hook and aurora ?

 

[Muadib]

I'm gonna go ahead and call BS on that Rense article, something about it looks off to me, I don't have a copy of Dark Knight Rising so I can't check it out but given the past track record of that holocaust denying nutjob, I'm guessing that it's a shoop. (PhotoShop) I could be wrong, but that's my gut feeling.

 

[Wade]

So I did a search using the terms dark knight rises, aurora and sandy hook and got this infowars page...not the most auspicious of verifications...and the page in turn apparently directs one to a couple of youtube links, I didn't click through though, so I've yet to view them. I feel kind of dirty even directing you guys to the page but here goes nothing

» ‘Dark Knight Rises’ Scene Eerily Shows “Sandy Hook” Written on Map Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

 

[Muadib]

So I did a search using the terms dark knight rises, aurora and sandy hook and got this infowars page...not the most auspicious of verifications...and the page in turn apparently directs one to a couple of youtube links, I didn't click through though, so I've yet to view them. I feel kind of dirty even directing you guys to the page but here goes nothing

» ‘Dark Knight Rises’ Scene Eerily Shows “Sandy Hook” Written on Map Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Yeah it links some youtube vid the same as the rense article shows, here's the thing, after what happened in Aurora, if that sign was really there in the movie the whole time, wouldn't we have heard about it by now and wouldn't the producers or whoever was working on the DvD conversion have had the good sense to take it out of the movie? It would have been extremely simple to do so. I'm sticking with BS photoshop job.

 

[pixelsmith]

i dont care what ppl think of him he cares...
Obama wipes tears when speaking about school massacre – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs

Give me a break Rikki.... This "caring" "Peace Prize winning" "Person of the Year" has killed 164 children in Pakistan and other drone targeted areas.

 

[Muadib]

Give me a break Rikki.... This "caring" "Peace Prize winning" "Person of the Year" has killed 164 children in Pakistan and other drone targeted areas.

Because he's flying those drones himself, right? I wonder if you whined as much when Bush was massacring Iraqi's and the Afghani people at the same time? Not that I approve of the drone strikes but I think if we measured his kill count against some of our other presidents, it would be pretty low.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

If we leave alone the actual right to own guns in the US, and I certainly agree that unfortunately it's too late as even if all guns were banned from manufacture and sale today, there are already plenty for any future would-be spree killer to have as many weapons as he can carry.

Ok, so an actual ban, a ban that prevents law-abiding citizens from obtaining a weapon for self-defence in this gun loving culture, just cannot work. Even if we accept that, I still find it over the top to see basically an AR-15 (semi-auto) available. It's not a hunting rifle, it's not a handgun for concealed carry or home protection. It's a weapon 100% designed for killing other humans. It's a military weapon and it looks like one too. Yes, a responsible owner can own one without doing a spree kill and of course a madman can use any type of gun against unarmed opposition. But apart from satisfying a gun-lovers wishes to own one, what is the responsible person's need to own that particular type of weapon?

If I was an American citizen, I'm afraid to say that I would 100% want to have a weapon at home. You can guarantee anyone with evil intent on your property is gonna have one so it's almost a must. You can dial 911 all you like but I bet the police wont even get the call-out by the time your dead at the hands of an attackers gun. It's a horrible state of affairs but it seems that is America forever.

 

[Muadib]

I think a good compromise would be better background checks for gun owners to make sure they aren't mentally ill themselves or living with someone who is mentally ill, if they are then mandatory gun safes with surprise inspections and if something is off you pay a hefty fine or go to jail. Or on the more high tech side of things, guns with built in palm print recognition that won't fire unless held by their respective owners? I'm just tossing out a few ideas here, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

I realize that this won't do anything for guns bought on the black market, but it may have helped prevent or delay this latest incident. He may have had to find some other way to act out that wouldn't have gotten so many people killed.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

Any way you cut it, it's an extremely complicated situation. Here are some of the problems that would have to be addressed:

1. Gun rights activists are somewhat paralleled by abortion rights activists. Many people wish to ban all guns. Many other people wish to ban all abortions. Advocates of either of these things fear, perhaps justifiably, to make any compromises because the opposition may not stop until total abolition is reached. Many conservative politicians have said that in no circumstances is abortion justified. Many liberal politicians, like Diane Feinstein, have said that no one (excepting, I assume, the security staff for politicians) should have firearms. So people are afraid to compromise in the tug of war. I'm not saying what's right or wrong in these cases, but this is how U.S. politics operates. Thus, gun activists are loathe to accept a ban on military style assault rifles, fearing that the next step will be against the next most aggressive weapon, and so on.

2.We can ban whatever we want, but without effective enforcement, these new laws mean nothing. Check out Philadelphia:
PHAWKER.COM – Curated News, Gossip, Concert Reviews, Fearless Political Commentary, Interviews….Plus, the Usual Sex, Drugs and Rock n' Roll » Blog Archive » SPECIAL REPORT: The Top 10 Drug Corners 2011
Drugs are illegal, but you can buy openly at Kensington and Somerset. I sometimes hear of federal mandatory sentencing for the possession of a gun while engaging in other criminal activity, but these never seem to get enforced. You can ban some or all guns, but what is the plan for enforcing it? Will law enforcement be willing and able to:
-Stop importation from Mexican cartels, when it begins?
-Remove guns from the inner cities, which if current drug enforcement is any indication, seems an unlikely prospect?
-Remove guns from current owners? One thing that will happen upon implementation of a confiscatory ban will be a sudden surge of reported gun losses. Many people will report losing guns in rivers, theft, etc. and these guns will be hidden.

3. Should criminal groups or individuals know that people are unarmed, will this change predation patterns? Once a home invasion or carjacking is underway, victims sometimes have a long, slow death to look forward to.

4. While military style assault weapons are implicated in some of the worst and most horrific mass murders (e.g. Connecticut, Brevik in Norway...not sure what the laws are in Norway), they do not account for the vast majority of firearm murders, which involve handguns. More people are killed with edged weapons or by bludgeoning than by rifles in the U.S. So, just going by the numbers, are rifles the most logical weapon to focus on, or simply the most politically expedient?

5. I have no problem with background checks and would be happy to see this promoted further. Having worked in mental health, and knowing how the effect of the "recovery model"(a grand and popular reform movement in mental health to keep people in the community regardless of danger to themselves or others), I would very much like to see people like the last shooter NOT have a mother buying guns. Again, the problem may arise in enforcement. Who is checking to see if they have weapons in the house? What level of mental illness should prohibit weapon ownership? The best way to predict future violence is by a history of past violence. Generally, though, the U.S. system sucks at doing anything but medicating the mentally ill and imprisoning them once they have committed a crime. The recovery model people pat themselves on the back for closing down state hospitals, but they get real quiet about the number of mentally ill people who end up in prison. But I am digressing upon a pet peeve.

6. We're looking at multiple systems of problems. We have the killer nerd shooters, and then we have gangbangers/criminal culture. What works at restricting one group may not work for the other. The killer nerd may have no criminal record, and may not appear on the radar until it is too late. The regular criminal won't pay attention to laws, and will be getting guns via a different channel.

I don't know what the answer is. One thing I know is that, if the U.S. gun lobby is a giant, then the pharmaceutical lobby is a god. No one will ever be held accountable for the prescription of SSRIs to pregnant women, or the over-reliance on medications to harness the homicidal, and we will continue to see more killers with weapons of one sort or another in the years to come.

 

[truthseeker]

This nutcase should have never had access to guns. What was his mother thinking? She knows she has a violent person living in her house who can explode at any moment and she keeps assault rifles that are not even locked up in a safe? That's just absolutely insane.

Secondly, we need to really re-examine psychiatric medications given to people in this country. This is getting out of control. There has never been so many people taking antidepressants or other forms of psychiatric medications and we don't even have a clue on the long term effects of these drugs.

 

[Konrad Hartmann]

It is a pathetic fact that while the U.S. comprises only five percent of the world’s population, the country consumes two-thirds of the world’s use of psychiatric drugs.

The Connecticut shooting is a reflection of a failing mental health system - National health | Examiner.com

Prozac was the first big SSRI, hitting the market in 1988, I think. Suppose SSRIs, taken by pregnant women, may have negative effects in their offspring, and these children consequently require medication, and so on? What if this is a way for the pharmaceutical industry to guarantee multiple generations of customers requiring meds? A child born in 1988 would be about 24 now. Will we see the transformation of the average person into a new type of human? In a few years, we may be seeing a very different type of young person becoming more common in the world.

How many NFL players are diagnosed with ADD in order to get Adderall prescriptions? At this point, many players probably have to take it in order to compete with the others already taking it. How long before not taking meds becomes a stigma in the U.S.? I mean, if you need it, you need it and there's nothing wrong with that. But the number of prescriptions generally far outweighs the incidence rate for most disorders. What are the long-term prospects for the Adderall generation?

 

[Randall]

On a related note, apparently some schools are now allowing teachers to carry guns. I wonder how long before some teacher snaps and kills a bunch of students, or someone steals the teacher's gun and uses it, or some nervous personality disordered teacher thinks some student is reaching for a gun when they're just reaching for their cell phone. And what about rights for adult students. Why should only the teachers have guns when it's the students we are supposedly most concerned about? Logically, if teachers can carry guns in school, then a students with legal weapons should also be allowed to carry them in self defense ... man o man it just keeps getting more and more crazy.

 

[mike]

On a related note, apparently some schools are now allowing teachers to carry guns. I wonder how long before some teacher snaps and kills a bunch of students, or someone steals the teacher's gun and uses it, or some nervous personality disordered teacher thinks some student is reaching for a gun when they're just reaching for their cell phone. And what about rights for adult students. Why should only the teachers have guns when it's the students we are supposedly most concerned about? Logically a student with a legal weapon should also be allowed to carry a wepaon for self defense ... man o man it just keeps getting more and more crazy.

And some of these kids were 5 yrs old, at what age do we let them defend themselves with guns