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David's revelation of an up close encounter

UFO Disclosure is another example. Why UFO Disclosure? Well, at bottom, it's pretty much the same thing as religion. No proof, and evidence that's either lacking, or of a nature that can be explained without evoking the paranormal.

Not quite, with ufo's you can observe evolution in perception, attitudes and a stack of multi-witness cases that keep on piling up. Many of which, had they been processed by courts, would have been legitimized and branded credible hands down (ex. Rendlesham Forest incident).

Most religions are absolutist and rigid in nature... on some occasions you see movement like recognizing the work of Gallileo 359 years after the fact :D
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13618460.600-vatican-admits-galileo-was-right-.html

... this one breaks me up :D
 
Chuckleberryfinn, is there some personal animosity between you and Rob? I was really put off by the tone of your note and definitely by the content. And why did David Biedny "thank you"?

I never understood why message boards almost always seem to sooner or later lapse into attacks on persons and personalities. On the face of it Rob simply articulated an opinion, pretty well, it seems, and you took him to task in a very personal and nasty manner.

Articulated it pretty well? That's a laugh. His prose is absolute rubbish. David Biedny thanked me because my post was full of bitter sweet irony.
 
Chuckle, the quality of a forum is determined by the quality of the posts, which are themselves dependant on the quality of the arguments made by the poster. I didn't say anything that hasn't been said before, and the fact that you react in this child-like manner is evidence that you haven't yet made the separation between your ego's irrational attachments and a more mature desire to promote clear thinking in yourself. Immature emotional attacks speak for themselves.

As for your cases, I don't find any of them compelling enough to make the assertion that they're paranormal in nature. I haven't found any that are, not here through the Paracast nor anywhere else. I can only assume that we have different standards in judging what merits sufficient evidence.
 
As for your cases, I don't find any of them compelling enough to make the assertion that they're paranormal in nature. I haven't found any that are, not here through the Paracast nor anywhere else. I can only assume that we have different standards in judging what merits sufficient evidence.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/1967malmstrom.html

news2.jpg


This is the story of extraordinary events that happened in 1967 to Strategic Air Command Missile Combat Officers; Missileers assigned to operate the Minuteman Intercontinental Ballistic Missile , an essential part of America's Cold War strategic nuclear deterrent.

USAF has confirmed that all of Echo flights' missiles shutdown within seconds of each other and that no cause for this could be found. For many years, the Air Force has maintained that no reported UFO incident has ever affected national security. It is established fact that a large number of Air Force personnel reported sighting UFOs at the time many of our strategic missiles became unlaunchable.

Maybe you should sue Robert Salas on behalf of the american people for spreading fear and lies about false national security threats from outer space. Maybe you should send him and all the other witnesses to a mental institution.

'We the people' are the inquisitors ? or the investigators ?
 
Clearly, I was interested in the subject of UFOs and other phenomenon of the sort since I first came to the Paracast forums, but after having spent time looking at the evidence presented here on the show and elsewhere, and through posing further questions about the nature of what that evidence is, I've simply done a 180 from 'it's likely true' to 'it's more likely not true'.

I'm aware of the Salas case, and again, whilst interesting on the surface, reveals itself insufficient proof of anything other than something purely mundane and banal. I don't know what that explanation is, but the likleyhood that it's aliens is not very high, although not impossible. This is my position on all claims, so there isn't any point in just posting case after case, you'll get the same response. Without actual proof, you have to exhaust all other possible explanations before making the huge assumption that anything is paranormal or extra-terrestrial in nature. You do it in every other aspect of your conscious existence, why should you stop when it comes to these kind of supernatural claims?

The 'thank you' feature on these boards isn't very helpful, in my opinion. It encourages a clique-like mentality and fosters an unhealthy desire for favourable recognition by others.
 
Chuckle, the quality of a forum is determined by the quality of the posts, which are themselves dependant on the quality of the arguments made by the poster. I didn't say anything that hasn't been said before, and the fact that you react in this child-like manner is evidence that you haven't yet made the separation between your ego's irrational attachments and a more mature desire to promote clear thinking in yourself. Immature emotional attacks speak for themselves.

As for your cases, I don't find any of them compelling enough to make the assertion that they're paranormal in nature. I haven't found any that are, not here through the Paracast nor anywhere else. I can only assume that we have different standards in judging what merits sufficient evidence.

I would like to read your mundane explanations for the cases Chuck posted as well as the supporting evidence for those mundane conclusions. To me the cases are inconclusive, but the eth is on the table. I don't consider that paranormal btw, but you were speaking to Chuck not me.

I would also like to see what evidence you have to support David and his friends are lying or mistaken about what they've seen. In a previous post you seemed to be claiming David is lying after all. If I misinterpreted sorry.

To demand evidence, works both ways. Genuine skepticism is coming to conclusions or endorsing theories that are supported by evidence and/or logic and questioning claims and conclusions that aren't.
 
Well, Rob, based on your statements, NOTHING is real. Nothing, nada, zero. Everything is an interpretation, every single aspect of reality is suspect.

So there you have it, you can't even be sure I exist. Am I real, or a realtime simulation of a person? You can't trust your senses, your eyes only perceive a tiny little slice of the electromagnetic spectrum, your brain is flawed and subject to misinterpretation and cultural conditioning. A photograph is not real, it's a couple of steps removed, and in the current digital age, no photograph can be trusted. No image, no video, no sound is real. Nothing is real, ever.

Obviously, I can't be trusted, anyone can tell you that. I have so very much to gain from coming forward with my experiences, I can be assured that assholes like you are going to give me a hard time. Oh Joy.

For fuck's sake, I really don't know why I waste my time with this shit.

dB
 
I'm aware of the Salas case, and again, whilst interesting on the surface, reveals itself insufficient proof of anything other than something purely mundane and banal. I don't know what that explanation is, but the likleyhood that it's aliens is not very high, although not impossible.

TBH, I couldn't care less wether this case is real or not. My real concern is government/authority reaction to these claims. Why didn't the USAF react ?

These are serious national security charges from Salas don't you think ? By not reacting the veil of confusion and heresay remains. And the case for 'coverup' builds. Unfortunately the witnesses are dying off.

At this point in time, who would you support if this case was brought to court ? If there's a court case about this, I'm sending my money to Salas ;) ... You could help everybody here by suing Salas :D
 
David, on the question and definition of existence, you're almost there. It's possible to make the argument that you neither exist nor not exist. The same goes with this asshole, everyone else, the universe itself and everything in it. Nothing ultimately exists. Things, people and objects only have the appearance of existence. On the surface that sounds crazy, but it's a well understood part of reality. I'm not sure of it's relevance here, and I'm not making any argument from that perspective that has any direct consequence to your claims, but I could explain what it means to exist if you want. It's not complicated.

I don't know why you waste your time with this shit either, and I'm not sure your emotional outbursts are helping much. If I wanted to be a true asshole, I'd openly state that you're fully conscious of your actions, that you create all your stories from your own imagination, that you deliberately recount these stories as true, and that you essentially and intentionally lie about the whole lot. That's what I'd say, if I were a true asshole. The motivation for doing such a thing on your part is open to question, from simple attention and interest of the subject to an all-out, full-on highly planned marketing scheme to make yourself a fortune... and/or simply some element of mental illness. Whilst it's possible that all this is true, this isn't at all what I'm saying. I honestly don't know why you waste your time with this shit.

Do you honestly believe that you'd be interested in this subject matter to this extent if you had never had any of the experiences you talk of? I know you can't definitively answer that, but it's a question worth asking. How do you imagine yourself doing the interviews on your show if you had none of your experiences?
 
Articulated it pretty well? That's a laugh. His prose is absolute rubbish. David Biedny thanked me because my post was full of bitter sweet irony.
I found your post as far from ironic as I can imagine. It was sarcastic and unnecessary. And I'm still unsure what precipitated it.

My point is this; Rob is entitled ( I thought!) to express an opinion, even one with which you or I or even David disagree, without being subjected to a personal attack. And what you did was absolutely nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Such attacks hardly buttress your position. Particularly in a forum which claims to be a platform for open dialogue on subjects which can hardly be called mainstream or provable to engage as you did is the only thing I found ironic about it. Discussion here can either be conducted on a level of mutual respect for ALL opinions or let's just have a declaration as to which opinions and points of view will be tolerated so everyone will know which "truths" are acceptable and which will be treated with contempt and derision. If the objective is to reinforce a predetermined set of beliefs and assumptions, that would be good to know. Otherwise, every opinion offered thoughtfully and respectfully should be treated in kind.

I offer this, of course, as purely my opinion and the basis on which I'll decide how and when to participate or not in the future. But there are simply too many message boards (especially, it seems, on topics related to "paranormal" and "political" issues, and I find THAT to be ironic) in which the dialogue devolves into the basest and ugliest sort of name calling and attempts to browbeat uniformity of thought. And if that's the case here, I'd just as soon get ahead of that curve and leave than waste time on that sort of empty, unproductive and meaningless nonsense.
 
I found your post as far from ironic as I can imagine. It was sarcastic and unnecessary. And I'm still unsure what precipitated it.

My point is this; Rob is entitled ( I thought!) to express an opinion, even one with which you or I or even David disagree, without being subjected to a personal attack. And what you did was absolutely nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Such attacks hardly buttress your position. Particularly in a forum which claims to be a platform for open dialogue on subjects which can hardly be called mainstream or provable to engage as you did is the only thing I found ironic about it. Discussion here can either be conducted on a level of mutual respect for ALL opinions or let's just have a declaration as to which opinions and points of view will be tolerated so everyone will know which "truths" are acceptable and which will be treated with contempt and derision. If the objective is to reinforce a predetermined set of beliefs and assumptions, that would be good to know. Otherwise, every opinion offered thoughtfully and respectfully should be treated in kind.

I offer this, of course, as purely my opinion and the basis on which I'll decide how and when to participate or not in the future. But there are simply too many message boards (especially, it seems, on topics related to "paranormal" and "political" issues, and I find THAT to be ironic) in which the dialogue devolves into the basest and ugliest sort of name calling and attempts to browbeat uniformity of thought. And if that's the case here, I'd just as soon get ahead of that curve and leave than waste time on that sort of empty, unproductive and meaningless nonsense.

Although I agree with some of what you stated, and recognize your comments are toward Chuck. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut and wanted to state a couple things.

You came here thinking there was going to be no insults? ATS still has them, and it's against the rules. Good luck finding a forum where everything is koombayah.

You're last remarks could be seen as insulting. Not that I mind, just thought I'd mention it since irony has been stated.

Ok, carry on.
 
David, on the question and definition of existence, you're almost there. It's possible to make the argument that you neither exist nor not exist. The same goes with this asshole, everyone else, the universe itself and everything in it. Nothing ultimately exists. Things, people and objects only have the appearance of existence. On the surface that sounds crazy, but it's a well understood part of reality. I'm not sure of it's relevance here, and I'm not making any argument from that perspective that has any direct consequence to your claims, but I could explain what it means to exist if you want. It's not complicated.

I don't know why you waste your time with this shit either, and I'm not sure your emotional outbursts are helping much. If I wanted to be a true asshole, I'd openly state that you're fully conscious of your actions, that you create all your stories from your own imagination, that you deliberately recount these stories as true, and that you essentially and intentionally lie about the whole lot. That's what I'd say, if I were a true asshole. The motivation for doing such a thing on your part is open to question, from simple attention and interest of the subject to an all-out, full-on highly planned marketing scheme to make yourself a fortune... and/or simply some element of mental illness. Whilst it's possible that all this is true, this isn't at all what I'm saying. I honestly don't know why you waste your time with this shit.

Do you honestly believe that you'd be interested in this subject matter to this extent if you had never had any of the experiences you talk of? I know you can't definitively answer that, but it's a question worth asking. How do you imagine yourself doing the interviews on your show if you had none of your experiences?

Wow, so you totally understand "what it means to exist"? Impressive. Must be amazing to have all the answers to life, the universe and everything. How humble of you. Me, I don't have many answers at all, I'm searching, in spite of all the setbacks, believers, troglodytes and know-it-alls I find along the path.

Yeah, I'm doing this for the big financial fortune that awaits... yesiree. BIG BUCKS. Warren Buffet, watch out, I'm gonna clean up with UFOs. And my brother and two friends have come on here, corroborating my stories, because they want part of the billions of dollars I will be raking in with my disclosures. How can I deny this? You've caught me red-handed. These people have come on the show, under their actual names, exposing themselves to ridicule, for some kind of financial gain - or the groupies, the hot UFO girls who pound down my door late at night, hoping to absorb some of my greatness via my precious bodily fluids.

If I didn't have my experiences, no, I would NOT spend any time in this realm. I've not had a single experience, or even a couple - I've had more than I care to ponder, but yes, I do indeed ponder them, all the time. Hard not to do, and whether or not all this has had an effect on my mental health, that's certainly in the realm of possibility. The fact that I'm typing these words right now, trying to justify myself to some faceless, anonymous yutz on these forums might be the best argument yet that I'm not exactly right in the head.

dB
 
David, your emotionally charged outburts are robbing you of your reason.

I don't claim to "have all the answers to life", I only said that I could explain what it means for something to exist. Hardly the same thing.

The personal insults are noted, I'll be complaining to the relevant authorities. Oh, wait...
 
I would suspect that maybe in this instance David had no collaborative witnesses (as in his other accounts) and being one of the most rational people I know of, therefore won't relate the experiance because it's naturally subjective, I'm sure it would be no less valid an account, but there you go.
 
Its all a journey, each and every one of us is on one, it looks to me like Mr Biedny has decided to pursue his passion, and actively seek the answers to his questions.
and in doing so has graciously and bravely chosen to share that with the people who listen to the show, and participate in the forums.


Yes he can be emotionally "reactive" , but who is to say thats a right or wrong thing. in this fasion some of the guests then become catalysts, which in turn creates the conditions for new ideas and thus an evolution in the journey, both for him and those hes graciously chosen to share with.

is the show therapy, a coping mechanism ? it might be, but if the end result is this persons journey is progressed by the experience then who could begrudge that. especially if they have bravely chosen to share that journey with everyone else.

never be afraid to say it like you see it, in that you'll share common ground with Mr Beidny, its been my experience that as long as you are honest and polite, he will process it.

my advantage is im not looking at his moment of now, i can see his whole journey, past present and future........

that he is pursuing his passion, actively taking whater means he thinks necessary to further his journey is whats significant, not the individual steps we see from moment of now, to moment of now

everything happens for a reason, the confusion we somethimes get from "events" is because the reason hasnt arrived with the happening (it often comes much later)

in the big picture its all good......................
 
David, your emotionally charged outburts are robbing you of your reason.

I don't claim to "have all the answers to life", I only said that I could explain what it means for something to exist. Hardly the same thing.

Your arrogance and ignorance keeps you from having any reason to rob, Rob. You can explain what it means for something to exist? Pray, do explain, Mr. Universe. I wonder, can you climb to the top of a mountain and turn yourself into light, too?

It's possible to make the argument that you neither exist nor not exist. The same goes with this asshole, everyone else, the universe itself and everything in it. Nothing ultimately exists. Things, people and objects only have the appearance of existence. On the surface that sounds crazy, but it's a well understood part of reality.

How about I punch you in the face and then you tell me if my fist exists. Let us call it a scientific experiment.

How much more pseudo-intellectual garbage are you going to regurgitate for us from Philosophy 101? This is all so fascinating to me.
 
What annoys me about Rob is the fact that because he cant bring himself to accept any of David's experiences as something that happened the way David presents them, he chooses to make David feel like an asshole for for even telling them at best, and an accuses him of being an outright psychotic liar at worst.
 
Chuckleberryfinn, is there some personal animosity between you and Rob? I was really put off by the tone of your note and definitely by the content. And why did David Biedny "thank you"?

Have you been reading this thread from the beginning, or did you just plug in recently? Perhaps it was because the first time Rob posted on this thread he said just a few words ending with "Get over yourselves!" a haughty and unnecessary rebuke to a discussion about Biedney's experiences--totally unnecessary. Rob was chastized for this post--and rightly so. Now he comes back with a generalist and nearly meaningless epistle attempting to sound as academic as possible--without saying anything. I won't bother taking it apart because Chuckleberry did such a wonderful lampooning of Rob's attempt at impressing the proletariat. I'm thinking Rob really has a deep seated need to feel superior to everyone and he's chosen this thread to do it, much like theHelix did a couple of weeks ago. If I can't see it with my own eyes than, dad gum, it don't exist! The same old same old rationalist/reductionist reactionism we see time and time again.

As to 'why' David thanked him, I have no idea what goes on in David's head, but I am thanking him for doing such a good job showing up Rob to be the prig he is. If you were "really put off by the tone of your note and definitely by the content" then why the fuck don't you press 'Delete'? Nobody gives a shit whether or not you were "put off." Rob had a pretty good conclusion in his first post: "Get over yourselves!" He just didn't understand that it applied to himself. and you, more than the people who were simply discussing the issue.
 
Chuckles, we define how something exists by comparing it to what it is not. For example, this keyboard I'm typing on has a form, it has an appearance. There are a certain number of individual elements that make up the keyboard; the keys, various electronic components, wires etc. The keyboard isn't anything else except the keyboard, it isn't the mouse placed next to it, for example, and it presents a finite appearence. This is basic logic, the law of identity, A=A, meaning that thing is what it is, it isn't anything other than itself. I am me and you are you, I am not you and vice versa. We can say that anything we observe, anything that presents an appearance to us, exists.

This appearance of existing things however is illusory and arbitrary. No matter how closely you observe an object, whatever that object is, you cannot precisely define it's boundary. When you look closely enough, down to the level of the atom and beyond, it becomes impossible to distinguish the actual physical beginning or end of any object or any thing. The keyboard has a definite boundary to our limited perception of it, but when you look close enough you'll see that there's no real boundary between it's edge and the surrounding air. This goes for everything around us, even ourselves. A direct consequence of this is the simple fact of the interconnected nature of everything, nothing truly has a clearly defined beginning or end. With this in mind, when we observe objects around us, we can start to make some interesting observations, such as that nothing has inherent existence, meaning that no thing can exist independently of everything else, since for a thing to exist it has to have at least another thing for it to be relative to to give it identity, for instance an observer to consciously make the observation. We can also say that no particular thing exists in an absolute sense, but only the appearance of existence as it is presented to us. Things around us, you and me, exist in a practical sense, but not in an ultimate, absolute sense due to the arbirary nature of their nonexistant boundaries.

Before you throw that punch, Chuckles, have a look at that fist of yours. What happens to the fist when you unclench it and open your hand? Does the fist still exist? What about the hand itself, where does it begin and end? What about the fingers, where would you say your thumb begins (once you've taken it out of your ass)? Can you, in absolute certainty, point to the place where your middle finger ceases to be the middle finger?

As far as the criticisms of my posts go and my perceived attacks on Biedny, fair enough, I'm guilty as charged. But what is it I'm being charged with? Is it the manner of the attack, and not the content? How non-sceptical do you have to be not to ask some pertinent questions, like "where's the proof"? If you all ask that of everyone else except David, who makes equally extreme statements, don't be surprised when some asshole like me comes along once in a while and asks him for you.
 
What do you mean "If you ask that of everyone else except David"? We dont ask that of ANYONE. What are you talking about?

Because someone seems untrustworthy and is labelled a charlatan or a hoaxer on this board, dont extrapolate that the reason for that is because they had no "proof". There could be many reasons. But proof DOESNT EXIST FOR ANY PARANORMAL ACCOUNT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS PLANET.
 
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