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Consciousness and the Paranormal
- Thread starter Tyger
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smcder
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My reservations on the theory that psychic powers are inherent but latent, are that if psychic powers evolved over millions of years as a natural part of our being, it would be a huge advantage and therefore in theory it should have become dominant rather than latent, and with all the people there are ( billions now ) it should be as unambiguous as any other of our five primary senses.
Asimov made this argument and I believe explored it in some of his books. But I'm not so sure it's that straightforward. After all, aren't there genes that remain in the population at a very small but constant rate - they never get stamped out or spread? Some of these may even be useful in certain times and places or be leveraged by their owner for individual success but don't confer universal success or prove to be unattractive to mates. Extremely physically attractive men and women may provoke distrust and jealousy for example and so have a hard time finding mates.
Have a look at Mephisto in Onyx by Harlan Ellison for another possibility. The main character had nothing but contempt for most people around him and could only find solace with someone whose mind he could not read.
People have evolved both the ability to deceive and to detect deception - even persons with extreme guile are usually caught out. Serial killers may charm some victims and cause the hair to stand up on others. Someone always sees through the demagogue, even with true charisma. Nietzsche talks about his grandmother who was able to see through people and how people hated her for it. I bet we all know someone who makes us uncomfortable because we feel like they know what we and everyone else is thinking. I'm not claiming a paranormal explanation here to make the point, it's enough that someone be naturally gifted in body language and other skills, but still that person gets "detected" by others.
So, would Psi necessarily have an open field to develop and spread or would it be stamped back? Maybe.
Another possibility is that gene(s) for Psi are linked more directly to mental illness or autism or other traits that confer a disadvantage. Or that genes for Psi are elicited (epigenetics) only in certain conditions (this might tie in with the Trickster theory of eruption of Psi events in de-stabilized social conditions).
Of course, these are just possible counter-arguments to the above - not positive arguments that psychic powers are inherent.
Another possibility is to look at the idea of developing these abilities. A mundane example is strength training. The average man can increase his strength significantly with modern weight training techniques. There have always been traditional ways of strengthening the body but it's safe to say these generally don't compare to modern weight training. And not just training, compare the average steroid and growth-hormone enhanced bodybuilder to the Greek ideal and he (she) could be considered some type of mutant if not an alien being or God. Some athletes who would never be competitive with training alone may possess a superior genetic response to chemical enhancement and be a "champion" by today's standards, whereas someone of naturally superior physical potential may simply not respond to the drugs available . . .
Specifically grip training is relevant here. With modern technology (spring loaded grippers of anodized aluminum) we have discovered that there is a remarkable potential for training human grip strength. Even weightlifters who do not specifically train the grip come nowhere near maximizing this potential and might exhibit less strength than an average man who focuses on this kind of training.
Similarly, we have developed abilities unheard of in previous generations (computer programming, driving, flying an airplane) because there was no call for them, the technology not extant or through biofeedback we can alter what was assumed to be unconscious aspects of physiology (of course there was some traditional training in these areas too) but biofeedback now might be used to treat illnesses or to control prosthetic limbs and probably results in a faster training response compared to traditional methods.
A small inherent Psi ability (if it could be brought under consistent control) perhaps amplified by chemical or other enhancement might be all that would be needed to control practically any device.
And if this Psi effect occurred despite time, distance and shielding . . .
Finally, if Psi is not like a primary sense but is a complex cognitive skill (or requires a complex cognitive skill to utilize) then it would be appropriate to compare measurement of Psi in the laboratory with measurement of other complex cognitive skills in the laboratory.
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smcder
Guest
I was sensing this idea emerging earlier in the thread as I was starting to think about Colin Wilson's book on a number of occasions in the course of reading through the forum recently, specifcally this thread. The third party broadcaster/manipulator that is from within or internalized just coalesced for me here in the above passage from Constance.
The Mind Parasites is a wonderful look at human history as under control by the alien Mind Parasites that control humanity & stop us from living in our natural state, loaded with natural psi power. Below is a sequence from the book where five humans have managed to dismiss the alien parasitic control over their own brains:
There are free ebooks available online. If you haven't read it yet then please do as it's a lovely complement to this discussion, and a fine analogy for much of this discussion. It's a page turner written by a smart writer.
http://selfdefinition.org/colin-wilson/Colin Wilson - The Mind Parasites.pdf
According to Wikipedia:
The story is about Professor Gilbert Austin's conflict with the Tsathogguans, invisible mind parasites that menace the most brilliant people on earth.
. . . whew!! . . . ;-)
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
See, that's how they get you in the end. You can't even recognize your own brilliance.
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smcder
Guest
@Constance
213. John Hagelin, Ph.D. - Buddha at the Gas Pump
John Hagelin, Ph.D., is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, author, and leading proponent of peace.
Dr. Hagelin has conducted pioneering research at CERN (the European Center for Particle Physics) and the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. He is responsible for the development of a highly successful grand unified field theory based on the superstring—a theory that was featured in a cover story of Discover magazine.
In addition, Dr. Hagelin has spent much of the past quarter century leading a scientific investigation into the foundations of human consciousness. He is one of the world’s pre-eminent researchers on the effects of meditation on brain development, and the use of collective meditation to defuse societal stress and to reduce crime and social violence.
213. John Hagelin, Ph.D. - Buddha at the Gas Pump
John Hagelin, Ph.D., is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, author, and leading proponent of peace.
Dr. Hagelin has conducted pioneering research at CERN (the European Center for Particle Physics) and the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. He is responsible for the development of a highly successful grand unified field theory based on the superstring—a theory that was featured in a cover story of Discover magazine.
In addition, Dr. Hagelin has spent much of the past quarter century leading a scientific investigation into the foundations of human consciousness. He is one of the world’s pre-eminent researchers on the effects of meditation on brain development, and the use of collective meditation to defuse societal stress and to reduce crime and social violence.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Dr. Hagelin was featured in the hit movie What the Bleep Do We Know!?
And that is supposed to make what he says credible? See this review of What the Bleep Do We Know!? in this post: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/philosophy-science-and-the-unexplained.14196/page-27#post-175456
And that is supposed to make what he says credible? See this review of What the Bleep Do We Know!? in this post: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/philosophy-science-and-the-unexplained.14196/page-27#post-175456
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smcder
Guest
Lol - you are so predictable. I've actually seen What the Bleep Do We know!? and no, I don't think that makes what he says credible. But folks are free to Google him or have a look at his entry on Wikipedia or actually listen to the podcast I linked above. I have not listened to it yet, so I have not formed an opinion. If there is anything that makes what he has to say credible, it could be this part of the Wikipedia entry:
"During his time at CERN, SLAC and Maharishi University of Management (MUM), Hagelin worked on supersymmetric extensions of the standard model and grand unification theories.[14] In the years 1979–96, Hagelin published more than 70 papers about particle physics, electroweak unification, grand unification, supersymmetry and cosmology, most of them in academic scientific journals.[14]His work on the "flipped SU(5), heterotic superstring theory," is considered one of the more successful unified field theories or "theories of everything"[20] and was once highlighted in a cover story in Discover magazine.[21]
Hagelin co-authored a 1983 paper entitled "Weak symmetry breaking by radiative corrections in broken supergravity,"[22] which is included in a list of the 103 most-cited articles in the physical sciences in 1983 and 1984.[23] By 2007, "Supersymmetric relics from the big bang," a study Hagelin published in 1984, had been cited more than 500 times.[24] In a 2012 interview in Science Watch, coauthor Keith Olive said that the work he had done on this 1984 study was among that which had given him the greatest sense of accomplishment.[25]"
But I am content to let folks do their own research and decide . . . I don't know anything about the guy, I just thought Constance might be interested in the podcast, which is why I tagged her at the top of the post.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Are PSI characteristics even actually desirable or advantageous in the long run? I have to wonder why they are suppressed and not fully realized. If telepathy and so forth were naturally occurring human characteristics why hasn't the extremely effective and intelligent evolutionary processes active on this planet brought them to the forefront? Could it be that they are not advantageous for human survival? Could human society survive telepathy in common everyday use? Probably not.
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smcder
Guest
And it goes on what telepathy is - is it a full scan of another's mind? Or only certain things get picked up? And there is also the question of whether another mind would even be comprehensible? This gets a bit into the what it's like to be . . . question; in Ellison's Mephisto in Onyx the lead character gets the stream of consciousness of everyone around him, every stray thought, every impulse and emotion - much of which is probably just background noise to the owner and in the book (Ellison being Ellison) everyone had a filthy mind and the result is the man can hardly stand to be in public. And so maybe that's how we weeded out the telepaths - simply get rid of anyone who blushes all the time for no apparent reason. Still, it's possible that it exists as a very rare trait.
Could human society survive telepathy in common everyday use?
With the NSA scandal and with Google-glasses and extensive surveillance, with Persinger and others working on "telepathy", with these kinds of devices:
The airport security scanner that can read your mind | Mail Online
or even in the hyper-connected world Jeremy Rifkin explores in The Empathic Civilization perhaps we will have occasion to find out. It may be that we simply have yet to evolve it.
Steve, thanks for tagging me in your post on Hagelin. I purchased a book of his about four years ago and his thinking is obviously significant given his accomplishments in physics. Your next post detailing some of those is most appreciated too. I purchased a general interest book of his about four years ago in which he attempted to apply his insights into the inherently interconnected processes maintaining balance in nature to the social, economic, and ethical problems of our civilization at this stage in our history. Others here concerned with the present state of human culture might want to have a look at it:
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smcder
Guest
236. Rome Viharo, Wikipedia, We Have a Problem | Skeptiko - Science at the Tipping Point
Interview with social media expert and Wikipedia critic, Rome Viharo exposes cyber bullying tactics employed by dogmatic Skeptics on Wikipedia.
Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with social media consultant and Wikipedia cyber bullying victim Rome Viharo. During the interview Viharo discusses the changes he sought to make in the bio page of biologist Rupert Sheldrake:
Rome Viharo: Personally I have no interest in promoting Rupert Sheldrake’s ideas or his hypotheses and I really can’t say scientifically if they’re valid or invalid. That was never my argument. My arguments were always on what’s called the “lead section,” which is just describing the basic information about the man. Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, author, and lecturer.
I was offended because these editors were basically abusing the metadata, the first sentence of the paragraph, to immediately frame Rupert Sheldrake in a light that is just biographically not true but in a way where he has no credibility after the first sentence.
So when I joined the page, what I found offensive was “Rupert Sheldrake is a former biologist,” right? So I just found that offensive and I was like, “Where is the source that he’s a former biologist? Where is the evidence of this?” So all I was trying to do was really just change the lead section. There are so many scientific publications that refer to him as a biologist.
Interview with social media expert and Wikipedia critic, Rome Viharo exposes cyber bullying tactics employed by dogmatic Skeptics on Wikipedia.
Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with social media consultant and Wikipedia cyber bullying victim Rome Viharo. During the interview Viharo discusses the changes he sought to make in the bio page of biologist Rupert Sheldrake:
Rome Viharo: Personally I have no interest in promoting Rupert Sheldrake’s ideas or his hypotheses and I really can’t say scientifically if they’re valid or invalid. That was never my argument. My arguments were always on what’s called the “lead section,” which is just describing the basic information about the man. Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, author, and lecturer.
I was offended because these editors were basically abusing the metadata, the first sentence of the paragraph, to immediately frame Rupert Sheldrake in a light that is just biographically not true but in a way where he has no credibility after the first sentence.
So when I joined the page, what I found offensive was “Rupert Sheldrake is a former biologist,” right? So I just found that offensive and I was like, “Where is the source that he’s a former biologist? Where is the evidence of this?” So all I was trying to do was really just change the lead section. There are so many scientific publications that refer to him as a biologist.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
And there in lies the rub, as he said. Is this further "evolution" really just a pipe dream? Did humanity peak some time ago and now, through artificiality, we have begun the long slow slide from vitality, to static existence, to choking in our own shit? Are the vaulted dreams of transcendence just another rearranging of the deck chairs?
Whether psi characteristics are "actually desirable or advantageous in the long run" is a moot question, trained observer. We're stuck with them to the extent to which they function, and what we need is broader knowledge of them, which requires our learning a great deal of their history in human life and philosophy beyond the limitations of current Western consensual concepts of 'reality'.
You ask an interesting question: "If telepathy and so forth were naturally occurring human characteristics why hasn't the extremely effective and intelligent evolutionary processes active on this planet brought them to the forefront?" It could be that what you call the "intelligent evolutionary processes active on this planet" -- no doubt also active on other planets where biological life takes root -- contain built-in temporal boundaries to the levels of possible interaction of fields and forces in nature. If I understand this correctly, it has become clear in systems theory that interacting fields and forces exchange information with one another which temporarily causes chaos in the interacting systems and then attains a further level of balance between the systems, a further-integrated order -- processes repeated endlessly in the evolution of the universe or cosmos.
You also ask and answer this interesting question: "Could human society survive telepathy in common everyday use? Probably not." I agree, and I think this points to the primary reason, likely embedded in nature, why psi is limited. In our brief history, psi points the way, gradually, to further human evolution of consciousness, and we should be following the signposts along the way toward understanding what it is and how to use it beneficially for ourselves and the planet we control to such a great extent. Our ability to use, exploit, and destroy natural resources and processes indicates that our comprehension of nature -- including our own nature -- has not kept up with our ability to do vast damage. Reported encounters with what seem to be advanced extraterrestrial beings have consistently referred to telepathic communications received from these beings (which, note, we are able to receive) and consistently expressed the recurring message that we are destroying the ecosystem of this planet. Makes sense to me.
Hitting the nail squarely on the head, trained observer: "through artificiality, we have begun the long slow slide from vitality, to static existence, to choking in our own shit?"
The "vaulted dreams of transcendence" arising from "artificiality" are nightmares, and some of the original engineers of AI have recognized that that way lies madness. I posted some links to Bill Joy and other insider critics of the AI project on my facebook page a half-year ago and will try to recapture them and post those links here.
An important post, Steve. No doubt the US 'intelligence' agencies have their grubby fingers on what gets promulgated on wikipedia as they do on the mass media. Real 'critical thinking' would enable many more people to recognize the tools by which our western materialist/objectivist worldview is maintained against all scientists who see the flaws in it.
"The Power of the Collective," an essay by John Hagelin, provides a general outline of his reasoning from the interconnected quantum and subquantum levels of reality to the way in which our interconnected consciousnesses and minds appear to influence our collective behavior. See especially the last section on the fifth page of the essay.
http://istpp.org/pdf/Shift-PoweroftheCollective.pdf
http://istpp.org/pdf/Shift-PoweroftheCollective.pdf
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Evolution? Evolution is generational. The individual experiences growth and then decline. What are we experiencing?
If the human species can continue to evolve, which is highly debatable, then whatever it evolves into, will eventually not be human at all.
Doesn't the evidence indicate that humanity is in some stage of its decline, not ascension? This is a strategically important distinction. Realizing what direction you are going in is paramount in effective navigation. Any navigation of humanities future trajectory must take this basic guidepost into consideration. Have we demonstrated our inadequacy to successfully thrive within the system parameters, actually crashing the system itself? Humanity, for all intents and purposes, appears to be at an evolutionary dead-end enamored with our own death dream where we escape the noose and make our escape as the trap falls beneath us. (shutters)
Why restrict the meaning of the term 'evolution' to the evolution of species? Do you think that you have not evolved as a person over your lifetime to date? I doubt you'll say you haven't if you spend some time reflecting on your own past history as only you fully know it. Systems in nature evolve, trained observer. Relationships between and among individuals evolve within our species and also in our cross-species relationships. The exploitation, even savaging, of other species by our own species in the past -- based in objectivist categorical thinking, selfishness, and indifference borne of insensitivity (actually a form of blindness) -- are matters about which our generation of adults and the children coming behind us have experienced a recent raising of consciousness that is beautiful and encouraging to observe. We see evolution in living systems such as ourselves, as individuals and as a collective, and also in nonliving physical systems. Our greatest challenge resides in the great artificially divided numbers of our species whose consciousnesses have been variously repressed concerning a wide variety of issues and realities concerning which we feel -- and to a great extent are -- nearly powerless. But we are not completely powerless to change ourselves and thus the world we have made badly if we recognize that what we must change first is the way we think about ourselves and others and behave accordingly. On the basis of insight and evolution of values we might indeed proactively learn what we need to learn and act to bring about the critical changes needed in the way life is managed on this planet counter to the interests of ourselves, other creatures, and the ecosystem that sustains us. People cannot act wisely out of ignorance of the conditions of their lives. The only productive and progressive path is obvious and there are many organized bodies of people around the planet working toward common rational goals.
That will depend on what we do in our collective interests now. If we do what's needed, we will improve as a species.
I think the reasons for the current degraded state of humanity are perfectly obvious and remediable with great effort.
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trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
That's the real problem isn't it? To understand the problem and to see the solution is one thing, the execution is another.
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