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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

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Will your revised paper lay out a detailed account of Nagel's support for his theory (in The View from Nowhere) of how subjectivity is produced from objectivity {"the mere objectiveness of things" that consciousness can never reach}. What are Nagel's grounds for understanding "the subjective-objective gap" though what he and you refer to as 'a rationalist epistemology'? What are the assumptions or presuppositions of that epistemology?

In what I'm understanding so far in your recent exchanges with Soupie it seems there is still no grappling with how and at what point in evolution the subjectivity of protoconsciousness and consciousness show up in nature, either in terms of the physiological evolution of species or in terms of 'primordial consciousness' as we contemplate its expression in human infants/toddlers and in proto-humans or early humans.

Does Nagel address 'sense-data' characterizations of phenomenal consciousness and the objections to them [laid out clearly in the IEP article linked below]? Does he or do you directly respond to the question "Does phenomenal consciousness respond to 'sense-data' [e.g., with color, respond to EM frequencies] or instead respond directly to visible and other phenomena encountered in the physical world?"

What are sense data? . . . What is sensing?

Sense-Data | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I think u would find the first 60 pages of his book will answer ur qs re obj/subj. the view from nowhere is the obj view. He explores it's relation to mind. Self. Knowledge. Subj. free will. Value. Ethics. None of his arguments are water tight but r thought provoking
I will not detailing it for my paper.
Why the interest in sense datum?
 
The 'sense datum' issues are raised by Soupie's perennial questions and hypotheses about what is perceived and how it is perceived, and by his interest in 'information theory' as a potential explanation for consciousness, and also by the extent to which you also seem to share, at least in part, in those approaches.

I think u would find the first 60 pages of his book will answer ur qs re obj/subj. the view from nowhere is the obj view. He explores it's relation to mind. Self. Knowledge. Subj. free will. Value. Ethics. None of his arguments are water tight but r thought provoking
I will not detailing it for my paper.

I've ordered The View from Nowhere and will read the first 60 pages as soon as it arrives, but I doubt that it will respond to the questions I've asked today. We'll see.

I wonder if you won't need to cite this book as support for your own presentation of a theory that "the view from nowhere is the obj view". Also, has Nagel written anything in the years since he published The View from Nowhere in which he qualifies the theory he presented there?
 
He specifically directed me to this book.
Sense datum is nonsense in my view and I think the arguments against r solid
I do cite nt's book
I could type out extensive section pp. 39-40 on obj. Completion when I get home
 
Sense datum is nonsense in my view and I think the arguments against r solid

I agree, but the sense-data approach to the problems of phenomenal experience and consciousness seems to me to remain implicit in information theory and standard neuroscience. In your own theory as you characterize it in this introductory paper you seem to me to be incorporating 'sense-data' premises in your argument conflating the second and third stages of your hierarchical constructs.
 
I agree, but the sense-data approach to the problems of phenomenal experience and consciousness seems to me to remain implicit in information theory and standard neuroscience. In your own theory as you characterize it in this introductory paper you seem to me to be incorporating 'sense-data' premises in your argument conflating the second and third stages of your hierarchical constructs.
My idea of information is v different to orthodox positions. Unrelated even.
I confess to seeing no relation between my stance and sense datum. I reject sense datum with enthusiasm
 
Nothing in hct undermines the phenomenological approach or the 'infinite' richness of phen experiential content
 
I wrote:

I agree, but the sense-data approach to the problems of phenomenal experience and consciousness seems to me to remain implicit in information theory and standard neuroscience. In your own theory as you characterize it in this introductory paper you seem to me to be incorporating 'sense-data' premises in your argument conflating the second and third stages of your hierarchical constructs.


Pharoah wrote:

My idea of information is v different to orthodox positions. Unrelated even.
I confess to seeing no relation between my stance and sense datum. I reject sense datum with enthusiasm

Nothing in hct undermines the phenomenological approach or the 'infinite' richness of phen experiential content.


Both of your statements may well be true from your point of view, but it remains to be seen in the development of your paper whether we can all agree. That will probably depend on just what your idea of 'information' is. It seems to me in the foregoing several pages that you attempt to substitute 'representation' taking place within materiality/the physical process of the world for what Tononi and others have in mind re 'information'. We need to explore the 'sense-data' issues to sort out what each of you propose.

Re your second statement {"Nothing in hct undermines the phenomenological approach or the 'infinite' richness of phen experiential content.}, that might also be the case in your view [which is constructed on the basis of your hierarchical constructs theory itself] but, in what you represent in your paper, phenomenal experience/subjectivity/consciousness come into your hierarchy too late, too far along the path of evolution in which experience is phenomenal and thus already proto-conceptual.
 
As early as 'it' shows up, 'it' being primordially expressed, as Panksepp and his colleagues in 'affective neuroscience' observe, in the 'affectivity' and 'seeking behavior' seen in even primitive organisms. That takes us far back in the evolution of living organisms -- of life -- to 'protoconsciousness' as Varela et al refer to the developments from germinal forms of self-other senses in autopoiesis. Self-other senses are protoconscious and they contribute to the exploration of the environment by organisms within which evolution operates over time. Our protohuman--human ability to develop concepts (now being pushed farther back in current archaeological and anthropological investigations) was germinated still farther back in the evolution of species.
 
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How does that differ to my account?
Are u saying that the neuron is not necessary for consciousness to exist?
 
How does that differ to my account?
Are u saying that the neuron is not necessary for consciousness to exist?

I've been referring to protoconsciousness as distinguished from consciousness. Do you think that once neurons are present in an organism it becomes 'conscious' in the sense in which we ascribe consciousness to members of our species and some others present in the world we live in today?
 
Oh, perhaps cs=consciousness and protocs = protoconsciousness.

Are neurons necessary for both/and? Could be, but that still leaves you with protoconsciousness in very primitive organisms, very gradually evolving and developing, changing, over eons of evolution.
 
I don't know enough about bacteria to hazard a guess. I would say, on the basis of Panksepp's
hypotheses concerning affectivity and seeking behavior in very primitive organisms, that it might be an open question, perhaps to be answered one day by further developments in affective neuroscience.
 
Ok. I could certainly work with that

Next q
What would u say distinguishes protocs from cs?
Is it a material difference. Measurable or behavioural difference. Or what?
 
As Panksepp's work falls within affective neuroscience—which is the study of the neural mechanisms of emotion—I would assume that Panksepp might say neurons were necessary for an organism to possess affective experience/consciousness. (As noted, that's just an assumption.)

Re: sense datum. I thought the follow excerpt from the SEP was interesting:

Sense-Data (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"3.1. The Appeal to Physicalism

One reason the sense data theory has lost favor is no doubt the ascendance of physicalism in the philosophy of mind. Physicalists believe that the world is entirely physical; in particular, they believe that mental states either do not exist or are reducible to physical states, such as brain states. Physicalism is contrasted with dualism, which holds that mental states/events are distinct from physical states/events.

For various reasons, most contemporary thinkers in philosophy of mind embrace some form of physicalism and reject dualism. If they are right to do so, then there is a reason for rejecting sense data: namely, that sense data do not seem to fit into the physicalist picture (Martin [2000, p. 222] discusses but does not endorse this line of thought).

Sense data are supposed to have the properties that perceptually appear to us. But, in cases of normal perception, the only physical things that have the properties that perceptually appear to us are the external objects that the direct realists say we are perceiving; and in cases of illusions and hallucinations, there are no physical things that have the properties that perceptually appear to us. In particular, our brain states manifestly do not ordinarily have the properties that perceptually appear to us (except in the odd case that we happen to be looking at a brain). So sense data, if they exist, must be non-physical things. ..."

And yet, as noted, its hard to see how phenomenal qualities (colors, smells, tastes, etc) can be physical. The hard problem.

Much easier to see it how physiological mechanisms/processess can be about (or "represent") relevant physical stimuli.

[ @Constance, as ive noted in the past, your approach is most curious to me. You appear to favor a natural, embodied explanation of consciousness while at the same time seemingly rejecting physical, reductionist explanations. You seem to reject the idea that consciousness emerges from physical processess. Other comments you've made seem to indicate a belief or affinity for dualism—obes, ndes, past lives, etc. And your latest comment re neurons is very interesting as well.

When I consider all these things together, some exotic form of panpyschism seems to be the only approach that could fit the above parameters. Perhaps a model in which primative, physical organisms don't generate consciousness but instead "channel" it in some way. Having been established at an early stage of the emergence of life, the relationship between the two—organism and consciousness—evolves as life evolves. In this manner, physical organism and consciousness beget mind. ]
 
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