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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3

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See also connection to conscience.

Conscience = con "against" science ... so conscience = against science!

Just kidding.

But we also can't confine a word to it's original definition - phenomenology is a good example - as the field of philosophy grows so does the word - current usage in context is definition.

No sense in trying to say what a phenomenologist should or should not study or to confuse a method in phenomenology like bracketing / epoche for the field itself.

Hence the exercise to try and talk about consciousness without using the word consciousness.

conscious (adj.)
c.1600, "knowing, privy to," from Latin conscius "knowing, aware," fromconscire (see conscience); probably a loan-translation of Greek syneidos. A word adopted from the Latin poets and much mocked at first. Sense of "active and awake" is from 1837.

Conscience
early 13c., from Old French conscience "conscience, innermost thoughts, desires, intentions; feelings" (12c.), from Latin conscientia "knowledge within oneself, sense of right, a moral sense," from conscientem (nominativeconsciens), present participle of conscire "be (mutually) aware," from com-"with," or "thoroughly" (see com-) + scire "to know" (see science).

Probably a loan-translation of Greek syneidesis, literally "with-knowledge." Sometimes nativized in Old English/Middle English as inwit. Russian also uses a loan-translation, so-vest, "conscience," literally "with-knowledge."
 
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Duly noted.


In general, (supernatural) dualism has been one of the main models of consciousness.

I don't follow? Dualism is supernatural or supernatural dualism is a main model of consciousness? Not for Nagel, Chalmers etc.

My question was where is it mentioned in the article?
 
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That was a nod to my recent back and forth with @smcder.

It seems the most we can say at this point about phenomenal experience and the brain is that they are related, just how they are related remains to be determined. Thus, the brain/brain processes may generate phenomenal experiences, or the brain/brain processes may manipulate some generic "phenomenal" property that exists external to the brain. Or something else altogether or perhaps some combination of both. Until humans are able to make strong predictions about the brain/mind or manipulate consciousness at will, all options are on the table.

"Until humans are able to make strong predictions about the brain/mind or manipulate consciousness at will, all options are on the table. "

We can already do both in some sense of the words ... poke this neuron in surgery and you get grandmas cookies ... examine this fMRI and read the mind - examine the gross anatomy of the brain to diagnose certain illnesses or predict behavior ( psychopathy).

What predictions and manipulations will we need to determine the exact relationship of brain to mind?
 
I certainly may be, but I don't see how. Sorry.

From the entry on phenomenology at SEP:

Phenomenology is commonly understood in either of two ways: as a disciplinary field in philosophy, or as a movement in the history of philosophy.

The discipline of phenomenology may be defined initially as the study of structures of experience, or consciousness. Literally, phenomenology is the study of “phenomena”: appearances of things, or things as they appear in our experience, or the ways we experience things, thus the meanings things have in our experience. Phenomenology studies conscious experience as experienced from the subjective or first person point of view. This field of philosophy is then to be distinguished from, and related to, the other main fields of philosophy: ontology (the study of being or what is), epistemology (the study of knowledge), logic (the study of valid reasoning), ethics (the study of right and wrong action), etc.

The historical movement of phenomenology is the philosophical tradition launched in the first half of the 20th century by Edmund Husserl, Martin Heidegger, Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Jean-Paul Sartre, et al. In that movement, the discipline of phenomenology was prized as the proper foundation of all philosophy — as opposed, say, to ethics or metaphysics or epistemology. The methods and characterization of the discipline were widely debated by Husserl and his successors, and these debates continue to the present day. (The definition of phenomenology offered above will thus be debatable, for example, by Heideggerians, but it remains the starting point in characterizing the discipline.)

In recent philosophy of mind, the term “phenomenology” is often restricted to the characterization of sensory qualities of seeing, hearing, etc.: what it is like to have sensations of various kinds. However, our experience is normally much richer in content than mere sensation. Accordingly, in the phenomenological tradition, phenomenology is given a much wider range, addressing the meaning things have in our experience, notably, the significance of objects, events, tools, the flow of time, the self, and others, as these things arise and are experienced in our “life-world”.
By describing phenomenology as the study of what its like to be consciousness, I didnt mean phenomenal experience only. I understand that phenomenologists study much more than that.

And I think it's interesting that the author in this entry makes a distinction between "us," our experiences, and consciousness.

Do you think those three things are ontologically distinct?

The entry continues:

The discipline of phenomenology forms one basic field in philosophy among others. How is phenomenology distinguished from, and related to, other fields in philosophy?

Traditionally, philosophy includes at least four core fields or disciplines: ontology, epistemology, ethics, logic. Suppose phenomenology joins that list. Consider then these elementary definitions of field:

  • Ontology is the study of beings or their being — what is.
  • Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
  • Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
  • Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
  • Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.
The domains of study in these five fields are clearly different, and they seem to call for different methods of study. ...
So, again, I don't see where a phenomenologist would necessarily be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. Indeed, I can see why a phenomenologist might think any attempt to explain the origin and/or ontological nature of consciousness as being reductive.

So, again, I don't see where a phenomenologist would necessarily be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. Indeed, I can see why a phenomenologist might think any attempt to explain the origin and/or ontological nature of consciousness as being reductive.

Not neccessarily is probably right - and might think is possibly right (I defer to @Constance on that) but I don't think it goes for all of phenemonology. One of the things you get from a bit of reading in philosophy is that labelling schools of thoughts is mostly for encyclopedic convenience - fortunately for the SEP Thales, et al had the prescience ("before science") to call themselves Pre-Socratics long before Socrates came along. I don't know, but I'll wager few people other than Husserl were pure phenomenologists and Husserl himself had to come out of another tradition before he could invent phenomenology. After that what phenomenology is ... is what people who uses phenomenlogical methods and generally refer to themselves as phenomenologists do. This mentioned in the article in re: Heidegger and how different an idea of phenomenology that is from Husserl.

Here are two more specific counter argumentes:

1. "Philosophers have sometimes argued that one of these fields is “first philosophy”, the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests. Historically (it may be argued), Socrates and Plato put ethics first, then Aristotle put metaphysics or ontology first, then Descartes put epistemology first, then Russell put logic first, and then Husserl (in his later transcendental phase) put phenomenology first."

So Husserl claims phenomenology is "first philosophy", which means phenomenology is

"... the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests."

Then it seems hard to understand why someone claiming to practice the most fundamental discipline - undergirding all philosophy (or all knowledge or wisdom) wouldn't

"... be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. "

That would be to say the foundation on which all knowledge rests has nothing to say about the ontology of consciousness. (or would it ... ? There are counter-arguments)

2. and here I wonder if you actually read the article, because just below where you leave off above:
  • Ontology is the study of beings or their being — what is.
  • Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
  • Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
  • Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
  • Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.
The domains of study in these five fields are clearly different, and they seem to call for different methods of study. ...

... right below this it continues with a more in depth look:

"Consider ontology. Phenomenology studies (among other things) the nature of consciousness, which is a central issue in metaphysics or ontology, and one that leads into the traditional mind-body problem. Husserlian methodology would bracket the question of the existence of the surrounding world, thereby separating phenomenology from the ontology of the world. Yet Husserl's phenomenology presupposes theory about species and individuals (universals and particulars), relations of part and whole, and ideal meanings — all parts of ontology."

If you did read this part, it seems a little misleading not to have quoted it as it adds the nuance that makes an argument a discussion.

Just based on this statement:

"Phenomenology studies (among other things) the nature of consciousness"

As far as I have ever been able to determine, the discipline of phenomenology doesn't concern itself with the ontology of consciousness, but rather on describing what it's like to be consciousness itself.
Thus, a phenomenologist wouldn't be concerned with whether consciousness was ontologically some non-physical substance, an energy field, constituted of an as-yet-unknown particle, a property of certain brain states, a property of certain chemical reactions, information, etc. A phenomenologist is only concerned with describing what its like to be consciousness. Right, wrong, neither, or both?


The answer would be wrong.

Of course ... there are counter-arguments.

This appears to be the exchange that started this:

@Constance:
As a phenomenologist I've objected all along to the basic premise of IIT, that consciousness can be accounted for entirely by information processing and integration in the brain.

@Soupie
As far as I have ever been able to determine, the discipline of phenomenology doesn't concern itself with the ontology of consciousness, but rather on describing what it's like to be consciousness itself.

But @Constance objection to the basic premise of ITT might be supported by this from the SEP:

Consider epistemology. As we saw, phenomenology helps to define the phenomena on which knowledge claims rest, according to modern epistemology. On the other hand, phenomenology itself claims to achieve knowledge about the nature of consciousness, a distinctive kind of first-person knowledge, through a form of intuition.

So if knowledge about the nature of consciousness obtaned phenomenologically contradicts the statement that:

"... consciousness can be accounted for entirely by information processing and integration in the brain."

...

and ... it doesn't neccessariy have to make a final determination of the ontology of consciousness to do so, right? Or ... ?
 
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@Pharoah I'm still very interested in reading your take on the so-called Hard Problem. How do we account for the apparent gap between the objective and subjective poles of reality? Is the gap illusory?

Chalmers is wrong to say that the hard problem of consciousness is the problem of experience. I think the problem of experience is explained by hierarchical construct theory, and that the hard problem is the 'elephant in the room' that no philosophers seem to want to mention:

Facing up to the Hard Problem of Consciousness


'Facing up to the problem of consciousness' is the much debated philosophy paper by David Chalmers that has ploughed not so much a line, but a demarcation trench through the central battleground of the philosophy of consciousness. The article, written in 1995, is celebrated for articulating the view that there is a uniquely "hard problem" in deciphering consciousness in that any theory must adequately explain the specific characteristics and the textural qualities of experience. As an article, it might well have been intended to clarify the problem of consciousness or even to unite opinion. Instead, it has had the effect of entrenching opposing views, heightening the sense that between the ranks lies an inhospitable no-mans-land with an assortment of booby-traps and razor-wire to catch the unsuspecting.
Deciphering the requirements of an explanation of ‘consciousness’ is considered by most, a unique problem. This is evident when examining the plethora of attempts to explain consciousness and explore the enigmatic features of its phenomenal characteristics (e.g., Armstrong, 1968, 1984; Carruthers, 1996; Dennett, 1978, Flanagan, 1992; Gennaro, 1996; Kirk, 1994; Lycan, 1987, Nelkin, 1996; Rosenthal, 1986, 1993; Tye, 1995). Some argue that such a problem does not exist, others that a reductive explanation is impossible (Chalmers, 1996, 1999; Chalmers & Jackson, 2001; Jackson, 1982, 1986; Levine, 1983, 1993, 2001; McGinn, 1991; Sturgeon, 1994, 2000), whilst some claim to have already provided one (Carruthers, 2000a; Dennett, 1991; Dretske 1995; Lycan 1996; Tye, 2000a).
Chalmers (2003) identifies six classes which he says, categorise “the most important views on the metaphysics of consciousness”. Of the six classes, three see consciousness as a physical process that requires no extension of mankind's understanding of what comprises physics, i.e. no expansion of a physical ontology:
i) Type A materialism – There is no epistemic gap between physical and phenomenal truths; or at least, any apparent epistemic gap is easily closed (Dennett, 1991; Dretske, 1995; Harman, 1990; Lewis, 1988; Rey, 1995; and Ryle, 1949);
ii) Type B materialism – There is an epistemic gap between the physical and phenomenal domains, but there is no ontological gap, a gap that exists between a knowable and an unknowable alternative reality (Block & Stalnaker, 1999; Hill, 1997; Levine, 1983; Loar, 1990/1997; Lycan, 1996; Papineau, 1993; Perry, 2001; and Tye 1995); and
iii) Type C materialism – There is a deep epistemic gap between the physical and phenomenal domains, but it is closable in principle (whose sympathisers are Churchland, 1997; McGinn, 1989; and Nagel, 1974).
Three of the six classes regard consciousness as involving some 'thing', irreducible in nature, requiring expansion or the re-conception of a physical ontology:
iv) Type D dualism or interactionism – Phenomenal properties play a causal role in affecting the physical world such that physical states cause phenomenal states, and phenomenal states cause physical states. (Foster, 1991; Hodgson, 1991; Popper & Eccles, 1977; Sellars, 1981; Stapp, 1993; and Swinburne 1986);
v) Type E dualism or epiphenomenalism – Phenomenal properties are ontologically distinct from physical properties. Phenomenal properties have no effect on the physical. (Campbell, 1970; Huxley, 1974; Jackson, 1982; and Robinson 1988); and
vi) Type F monism - Consciousness is constituted by the intrinsic properties of fundamental physical entities (Chalmers, 1996; Feigl, 1958/1967; Griffin, 1998; Lockwood, 1989; Maxwell, 1979; Russell, 1926; Stoljar, 2001; and Strawson, 2000).
Crucially, in this classification Chalmers’ assumption is that the phenomenal domain of 'experience' is consciousness i.e., the concept of 'the phenomenal' encapsulates ‘consciousness’. It is from this incorrect assumption that he concludes that the Hard Problem of consciousness is the Problem of Experience.

The Distinction between Personal Identity and Phenomenal Consciousness

Is an explanation of phenomenal experience truly an explanation of consciousness? HCT informs us that it is not.
One may explain the how and why of the chemistry of ripening apples, but this insight need not by necessity explain what it might be to ripen for an individual apple. Alternatively, the insight of gravity and how it relates to a falling apple does not give insights as to what it is like to be a particular individual falling apple. Now it is true we assume, that it is nothing to be ‘what it is like’ as a individual ripening or falling apple. But this is not the assumption we make of other human individuals. We do assume that there is 'something it is like' to be other individual conscious humans. We assume that human individuals experience phenomena in such a way that gives substance to the quality behind their feelings of experiencing the world.
One can 'imagine' that there is the potential to explain the chemistry of the brain, just as one might explain the chemistry of ripening apples. One can imagine being able to understand the physiology of cerebral structures in great detail. And yet whilst we may be content knowing the chemistry and physiology of ripening and falling apples, or might understand the chemistry and physiology of the brain, there is yet more to answer when it comes to consciousness.
Understanding consciousness is more than understanding the causal or correlative mechanisms and physiology of the organ that appears to produce it (see section 4 below ‘Of Causation, correlation, and explanation’). If philosophers or scientists were to provide an explanation of phenomenal consciousness, it would by necessity tell us with clarity and certainty what it feels like, if anything, to be an apple. Even so, this still is not a sufficient conclusion to the problem of consciousness. To describe why and how individuals with a conscious first-person perspective of experience must exist, is not necessarily to explain how any given individual’s first-person perspective actually exists:
If you decide to recognise your own distinctive conscious identity, then you are also compelled to recognise that there is no current scientific knowledge or philosophical framework that can hope to encompass the identity of your particular self as distinct from anyone else’s; for any such explanation must be not just person specific, but specifically individuated to you. And so, a full account of consciousness, in contrast to an explanation of phenomenal experience, requires an explanation that identifies, not just the uniqueness of the first-person phenomenal perspective, but the distinctly personal consciousness of every viable individual. Such an explanation would have to explain, unlikely as it may seem, you and me individually, rather than merely explain how and why phenomenal of conscious experience, for example, is an emergent consequence of physics.
A reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience, which us humans identify as consciousness, is not going to provide a full account of the conscious identity we each possess about ourselves in contrast to any other selves. This re-enforces the point I made at the conclusion to the book’s Introduction:
When a human looks in a mirror and sees his or her face, he or she sees a material incarnation of an exceptional event that has never before occurred in the history of the universe nor will ever occur in the future of the universe - namely, that particular conscious individual has looked at themselves. What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference?
Whilst I claim that HCT provides a reductive explanation of phenomenal experience, I am of the view that an explanation of every individual’s self requires an additional level of explanation. This additional level requires explaining all that is not yet phenomenal but that which could be. This aspect of consciousness I interpret, as the problem of noumenal consciousness. In chapter 7, I take this particular and additional problem of personal self-identity head on. For now, the point to emphasise is that the problem of consciousness is not entirely encapsulated by the notion of the ‘problem of experience’. It is for this reason that I express the view that the Hard Problem of consciousness is not the problem of providing an explanation of phenomenal experience as Chalmers suggests, but that of providing an explanation of noumenal consciousness. This distinction between the phenomenon of consciousness (which does necessitate the possession of a first-person perspective but is nevertheless, non-self identity specific) and the individuated self (which is curiously affiliated to, specifically us, and only us individually), is what I call ‘The Elephant in the Philosophy of Consciousness Room’ issue because it is not a distinction that is often made. The distinction is important, because, for example, if one were to hold the view as I do, that one can reductively explain phenomenal consciousness without explaining noumenal consciousness, then one must also conclude that such a reductive explanation need not infringe on the dualist’s stance or decisively determine the nature of the battleground to be waged for or against physicalism. In other words, a reductive explanation of phenomenal experience does not prove or disprove physicalism - it has no impact or bearing on the physicalism versus dualism debate whatsoever. It is clear from Chalmers' writing and others, that this distinction is entirely unappreciated (hence the "elephant in the room") - for Chalmers the problem of consciousness is the problem of experience and in being so, pits physicalism up against dualism over the question of phenomenal experience. My stance, which is enabled by Hierarchical Construct Theory, allows one to come to terms with a reductive explanation of first-person phenomenally conscious experiences, and yet still hold dear the mystery of self-existence - the explanation of which might yet be shown to have dual aspects to it or to be entirely physical.
Earlier, I listed the six classes which Chalmers identifies to categorise the most important views on the "metaphysics of consciousness". Here, Chalmers contrasts the materialist positions against the two dualist and one monist positions explicitly illustrating my point. Clearly, Chalmers is of the view that you cannot have a reductive materialist explanation of phenomenal consciousness and yet be a dualist. In his collation of the views expressed by philosophers, Chalmers expresses the mutual incompatibility of the two camps thereby illustrating that the vast majority of philosophers - whichever side of the divide they maintain their affiliation - are mistakenly of the view that phenomenal consciousness is inextricably tied conceptually to the problem of self-consciousness. What I am saying is that philosophical orthodoxy is mistaken. By way of contrast, HCT shows that explaining the phenomenon of consciousness need have no bearing on one’s dualist or monist or materialist leanings.

More on ‘The Elephant in the Philosophy of Consciousness Room’

When we conceive of alternative life scenarios we make certain assumptions.
Conceive of scenario 1 where at birth, a midwife mistakenly placed you in the wrong cot. As a consequence, you were taken home by the wrong parents to live an entirely different life to the one you have actually lived. In our conception of such a scenario, we assume that an alternative life individual would hold alternative views; different beliefs or concepts about the nature of reality to our own. We assume that being such an alternative individual would entail holding different memories. But if you were this alternative individual with these types of differences, you would nonetheless, remain the same individuated identity. Likewise with the following second alternative scenario: you are born of a family that decide to live with a sect that seeks in every way to re-enact the life of 17th century peasants. We assume that such an alternative life individual might possess not just different beliefs or concepts and a different set of memories, but different tastes, sensitivities, and impressions about life. With scenario 2, phenomenal qualities might be more vivid due to a lifestyle that is closer to nature: perhaps a more 'earthy' way of living would have the tendency of more acutely attuning the senses of smell and hearing. It may also be the case that for this individual, the passage of time might feel different: perhaps a life of toil in the fields makes the experience of time differ to that of the individual brought up in a fast-paced twentieth century city.
Of these assumptions perhaps the greatest of all is that we can actually have a conception of any alternative life scenario that holds true validity. For if one were, in reality, to change rather drastically, even one's innately acquired characterisations overnight let alone one's experiential characterisation, one would still be the same individuated identity the following morning. Were this to happen, innate characterisation might make one more inclined to become aggressive or more sensitive, more scatty perhaps, or male rather than female, more or less paternal etc. Similarly, changing the content of the 'feeling' of one's phenomenal experiences would not by necessity, impact on the identity of the individual experiencing the change. Whilst everyone has a first-person perspective - and each and every alternative scenario does undoubtedly have a first-person perspective - and whilst the characterisation of their persona might be altered by degree, they retain their individuated identity. By this, what I am suggesting is that the character of a persona may change greatly, but this need not change their individuated identity: does a patient suffering from acute Alheizmer’s stop being the identity they were? The innate, experiential, or conceptual characterisation of a first-person perspective does not clearly differentiate an individuated identity. What nails our individuated identity to the first-person yet changeable persona that we are? When we conceive of an alternative life scenario, we assume the identity ‘through the eyes of the same person' but imagine different contents of experience, attitude, and the such like. But these imaginings are ignoring that which actually delineates the individuation of an individual from any other many many trillions of alternative life scenarios.

What is it to conceive?

In these alternative first-person scenarios, what is meant by "conceive of a scenario"? Truly, we can conceive the possibilities of these and other alternative-life scenarios, but is it possible to have a true concept of what it would be, to 'actually' be these alternative lives? What is the truth-value of a conception of being an alternative individual scenario? Is not the exercise of conceiving of "actually being" these scenarios, as inconceivable as conceiving being a bat? In truth, we can only imagine what these conceivable scenarios would actually be like, and by imagining find that the further removed from our own experiences and understandings, the more approximate these imaginings or assumptions must be. Though conceivable scenarios, perhaps these modes of living are not conceived truthfully at all.
We think that we can conceive accurately of alternative human lives because as thinking individuals we are in the business of appraising our own learning and our own conceptual worldview, and from this, are in the habit of believing that alternative life scenarios are but an extension of this kind of thinking. Undoubtedly, the further from our ‘selves’ that we conceive, the greater assumptions become by degree. And yet, importantly, fundamental assumptions are necessary for all alternative scenarios regardless of how similar or distant to one's actual life they happen to be.
The language of translating one lifestyle conception to another by "conceiving" is fraught with potential inaccuracies; inaccuracies that are filled in by assumption and imagination. At the heart of this is the problem associated with the meaning of the 'first-person'. There is an assumed meaning guarded by the notion of what it would be like to be another, but there is no objective stipulation of the true nature of individuated first-persons.
What is the true, rather than the assumed differentiation between one first-person perspective and another?

[section ommitted]

Conclusion

Explaining why the first-person perspective must exist in certain complex systems constructs does not provide an explanation for the intrinsic property of the first-person perspective. In other words, one might provide a correlative explanation of consciousness through an understanding of neural anatomy and mechanisms, or articulate a reductive explanation of phenomenal consciousness (with its associated characteristics), but there is no understanding of what is personal identity in the deeper sense of its meaning. A reductively explanation of first-person characterisations does not explain any particular unique frame of reference. Similarly, an explanation of the phenomenon of experience does not explain why you have are associated with your particular phenomenal experiences and I mine. We can understand through various correlative mechanisms, and can understand what creates phenomenal consciousness and how, but everything outside of phenomenal consciousness, is left untouched. An understanding of personal identity entails understanding why it is, that "when a human first looks in a mirror and sees its own face, it sees a material incarnation of an exceptional event that has never before occurred in the history of the universe".
Imagine that in the future, all the properties that lead to the emergence of consciousness are explained. That is, neuroscience has explained all experience and motor processing mechanism. Thus science understands how the brain creates the experience types such that they result in self recognising individuals with all the possible A, B, and C, experience types. Additionally, science has developed a complete understanding of the dynamics of the relationships between all versions of experience types A, B, and C. In this manner, such knowledge will show that the first-person perspective must exist through known processes. It may even show how each first-person perspective differs, one from another. In as much that they would explain how the first-person individual self-aware or self-consciously sentient being emerges from known processes, would such reductions decipher the problem of 'actual' identity? Do people really know to what is being referred when speaking of the first-person, or are they making the assumption that we are all basically the same, except for our different experiential phenomenal perspectives?
The extrinsic nature of 'conscious individuals' may be reductively explained, but why should the intrinsic individual that is you, happen to be you, in the 13.7 billion year history of the universe and 100 trillion year plus future of the universe? This question is the philosopher's 'elephant in the room' question. The elephant in the room question is a question that, whilst relating to consciousness, is I submit, entirely distinct from the problem of the phenomenon of experience.
 
See if this is helpful:

Philosophers have sometimes argued that one of these fields is “first philosophy”, the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests. Historically (it may be argued), Socrates and Plato put ethics first, then Aristotle put metaphysics or ontology first, then Descartes put epistemology first, then Russell put logic first, and then Husserl (in his later transcendental phase) put phenomenology first."

So the first argument is that if phenomenology claims to be first philosophy:

"... the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests."

Then it seems hard to understand why someone claiming to practice the most fundamental discipline - undergirding all philosophy (or all knowledge or wisdom) wouldn't

"... be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. "

That would be to say the foundation on which all knowledge rests has nothing to say about the ontology of consciousness ... or would it?

Very interesting.
I confess to having a problem recognising the distinctions between them. They are entwined in my way of thinking.
 
I certainly may be, but I don't see how. Sorry.

From the entry on phenomenology at SEP:

Phenomenology is commonly understood in either of two ways: as a disciplinary field in philosophy, or as a movement in the history of philosophy.

The discipline of phenomenology may be defined initially as the study of structures of experience, or consciousness. Literally, phenomenology is the study of “phenomena”: appearances of things, or things as they appear in our experience, or the ways we experience things, thus the meanings things have in our experience. Phenomenology studies conscious experience as experienced from the subjective or first person point of view. This field of philosophy is then to be distinguished from, and related to, the other main fields of philosophy: ontology (the study of being or what is), epistemology (the study of knowledge), logic (the study of valid reasoning), ethics (the study of right and wrong action), etc.

The historical movement of phenomenology is the philosophical tradition launched in the first half of the 20th century by Edmund Husserl, Martin Heidegger, Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Jean-Paul Sartre, et al. In that movement, the discipline of phenomenology was prized as the proper foundation of all philosophy — as opposed, say, to ethics or metaphysics or epistemology. The methods and characterization of the discipline were widely debated by Husserl and his successors, and these debates continue to the present day. (The definition of phenomenology offered above will thus be debatable, for example, by Heideggerians, but it remains the starting point in characterizing the discipline.)

In recent philosophy of mind, the term “phenomenology” is often restricted to the characterization of sensory qualities of seeing, hearing, etc.: what it is like to have sensations of various kinds. However, our experience is normally much richer in content than mere sensation. Accordingly, in the phenomenological tradition, phenomenology is given a much wider range, addressing the meaning things have in our experience, notably, the significance of objects, events, tools, the flow of time, the self, and others, as these things arise and are experienced in our “life-world”.
By describing phenomenology as the study of what its like to be consciousness, I didnt mean phenomenal experience only. I understand that phenomenologists study much more than that.

And I think it's interesting that the author in this entry makes a distinction between "us," our experiences, and consciousness.

Do you think those three things are ontologically distinct?

The entry continues:

The discipline of phenomenology forms one basic field in philosophy among others. How is phenomenology distinguished from, and related to, other fields in philosophy?

Traditionally, philosophy includes at least four core fields or disciplines: ontology, epistemology, ethics, logic. Suppose phenomenology joins that list. Consider then these elementary definitions of field:

  • Ontology is the study of beings or their being — what is.
  • Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
  • Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
  • Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
  • Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.
The domains of study in these five fields are clearly different, and they seem to call for different methods of study. ...
So, again, I don't see where a phenomenologist would necessarily be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. Indeed, I can see why a phenomenologist might think any attempt to explain the origin and/or ontological nature of consciousness as being reductive.

Wait ... duh, there is an even more fundamental error here, isn't there @Constance?
 
Very interesting.
I confess to having a problem recognising the distinctions between them. They are entwined in my way of thinking.

Me too ... I'm glad you posted on the origins of the word.
 
Review - Ontology of Consciousness - Philosophy

The twenty essays featuring the book are able to make you realize that several different scientific research areas are eager and ready to expand their theoretical horizons.

This essay collection is therefore trying to satisfy a common yearning, claimed both by the general public and by the scientific community. It is therefore relevant, and not just an exotic eccentricity, that in it,

"thirteen cultures have contributed from a spectrum of twelve research disciplines, ranging from neurophysiology to parapsychology, from medicine to philosophy, and from mathematics to anthropology, with each author making a valiant attempt to grasp the meaning of consciousness". (p. xxiii)

Though there's a wide range they all truly share a common voice, an "integrative discourse". (p. xxiii) Stanely Krippner (Introduction) is not shy when he quotes Michel Foucault "knowledge is not power, as many people assume; rather, powerful institutions determine what can pass for knowledge". (p. xxii)

What this book demonstrates is that a new approach to science is already taking place inside institutions and twenty people testify exactly what changes are already taking place concerning each science filed. This is why it is more important to describe what kind of theoretical background they all share than to focus on each one of the essays individually -- which the Introduction briefly summons accurately allowing the reader to choose whichever order to read them, according to its own interest.

2) The book is said to aim at an "archeological epistemology" and for that to happen all essays agree

that the ontological scope, which science takes for granted now, firstly, is not, and secondly it can actually be expanded. Not only it can, but most of all, it has to be expanded if we expect any progress from science that benefits human kind.

The conscious human mind has a very wide range of unexplored possibilities that science, up until now, has not considered. And the whole point is that it has to consider them, instead of comfortably ignoring them, not only to meet people's expectations (towards science) but also to rescue science from a short fall.
Most essays in Ontology of Consciousness -- Percipient Action do have an East-meets-West kind of attitude. But the end result is not a cheap new age groundless discourse -- which would be legitimate to expect of a book taking such an orientation. All participants are scholars and researchers, not only experienced but also with fully rewarded careers. A good editorial option is that you can access to a brief CV description of everybody collaborating in the book. This not only makes you know a bit better who is writing but also to better grasp the point of view/ area from which the person is standing when dealing with a specific topic.
The variety of topics, almost an anthropological overview of several world cultures aim much more than anthropology. They are anthropological (more than that, 'archeological' in the sense that they aim to access the essence of human consciousness in its full expression and not so much the culture) because each one of the essays is committed to prove that there is much more data to consider and science is not taking it into account.

Many principles don't make sense anymore, some boundaries where set a long ago time ago and now have to be broadened -- and hence the expression "archeological epistemology". The book says exactly this, twenty times, concerning different areas and referring different cultures and thinkers, digging every time a bit deeper.
3) Considering the wide book offer there is nowadays, the option to publish such a book is an important one that MIT Press has taken. Much more than twenty very interesting essays, this book has the ambitious goal of reframing science, broadening horizons, setting both new boarders and ground.

It is clearly a book against the ground in which science stands for since the beginning of the century: positivism.

At the same time, in itself it also indicates the breaking of a new study area that eventually may support that much needed change that science has to undertake. Twenty new possibilities are offered to make us think and they all encourage us to go further, bravely.
 
Table of contents for Ontology of consciousness

Introduction Stanley Krippner

Part 1: Expanding the Ontological Matrix
Introduction
Helmut Wautischer

1. The Emptying of Ontology: The Tibetan Tantric View
E Richard Sorenson

2. The Soul and Communication Between Souls
Edith L. B. Turner

3. Consciousness and Reality in Nahua Thought in the Era of the Conquest
James Maffie

4. Pre-Columbian Artistic Expressions of Indigenous Concepts of Soul
in Cross-Cultural Perspective
Armand J. Labbé

5. Why One Is Not Another? The Brain-Mind Problem in the
Byzantine Culture
Antoine Courban

6. Soul and Paideia: On the Philosophical Value of a Dialectical Relation
Michael Polemis

Part 2: Localizing Subjective Action
Introduction - Helmut Wautischer

7. Language and the Evolution of Mind
Hubert Markl
8. Consciousness Cannot Be Explained in Terms of Specific
Neuronal Types and Circumscribed Neuronal Networks
Mircea Steriade

9. Consciousness as a Relation between Material Bodies
Pavel B. Ivanov

10. The Priority of Local Observation and Local Interpretation in
Evaluating ¿The Spirit Hypothesis¿
David J. Hufford

11. Effects of Relativistic Motions in the Brain and Their Physiological
Relevance
Mariela Szirko

12. A Palindrome: Conscious Living Creatures as Instruments of Nature;
Nature as an Instrument of Conscious Living Creatures
Mario Crocco

Part 3: Experience of Existence
Introduction - Helmut Wautischer

13. The Evolution of Consciousness in Sri Aurobindo¿s Cosmo-Psychology
Matthijs Cornelissen
14. An Existentialist Understanding of Consciousness
Julia Watkin
15. Toward an Ontology of Consciousness with Nicolai Hartmann and
Hans Jonas
Karim Akerma
16. Thinking Like a Stone: Learning from the Zen Rock Garden
Graham Parkes
17. The Concept of Person in African Thought: A Dialogue Between
African and Western Philosophies
Heinz Kimmerle
18. Of Indian God-Men and Miracle-Makers: The Case of Sathya Sai Baba
Erlendur Haraldsson
19. Sentient Intelligence: Consciousness and Knowing in the Philosophy
of Xavier Zubiri
Thomas B. Fowler
20. Ontology of Consciousness: Reflections On Human Nature
Thomas Szasz

Epilogue Christian de Quincey
Index
 
"On the other hand, phenomenology itself claims to achieve knowledge about the nature of consciousness, a distinctive kind of first-person knowledge, through a form of intuition."
So if knowledge about the nature of consciousness obtaned phenomenologically contradicts the statement that:

"... consciousness can be accounted for entirely by information processing and integration in the brain."

...

and ... it doesn't neccessariy have to make a final determination of the ontology of consciousness to do so, right? Or ... ?
Ok.

@Constance What phenomenological insights have allowed you to determine that consciousness cannot be wholly explained as information arising in the brain? That is, what first-person experiences/knowledge allowed you to arrive at that strong conclusion?

I found the following summary of Sarte's work from Wikipedia interesting:

Phenomenological ontology[edit]

In Sartre's opinion, consciousness does not make sense by itself: it arises only as an awareness of objects. Consciousness is therefore always and essentially consciousness of something, whether this "something" is a thing, a person, an imaginary object, etc. Phenomenologists often refer to this quality of consciousness as "intentionality". Sartre's contribution, then, is that in addition to always being consciousness of something, consciousness is always consciousness of itself. In other words, all consciousness is, by definition, self-consciousness. By "self-consciousness", Sartre does not mean being aware of oneself thought of as an object (e.g., one's "ego"), but rather that, as a phenomenon in the world, consciousness both appears and appears to itself at the same time. By appearing to itself, Sartre argues that consciousness is fully transparent; unlike an ordinary "object" (a house, for instance, of which it is impossible to perceive all of the sides at the same time), consciousness "sees" all aspects of itself at once. This non-positional quality of consciousness is what makes it a unique type of being, a being that exists for itself.

In this sense, Sartre uses phenomenology to describe ontology. Thus, the subtitle An Essay on Phenomenological Ontology or, alternatively, A Phenomenological Essay on Ontology: what truly makes Sartre's a phenomenological ontology is that consciousness's structure is the way that it appears. Philosopher Kenneth Williford suggests that Sartre's reasoning turns on a logic of full phenomenal transparency that might not withstand scrutiny. In other words, Sartre implicitly argues that if consciousness "seems" to possess a certain property, then it actually possesses that property. But, conversely, if consciousness does not seem to possess a certain property, Williford argues that it would be hasty to conclude from this "seeming" that consciousness does not actually possess that property. (For example, consciousness might not "seem", upon reflection, to be brain process, but it is not clear from this "seeming" that consciousness is not, in fact, a brain process.)[8]
(1) Consciousness always being conscious of itself:

Interesting. This relates to the concept I was trying to capture with my (confusing) statement, "The mind is green." That is, there may be wavelengths of a certain amplitude "out there," but the corresponding/correlating existence of "green" is consciousness. However, I believe that phenomenal green can exist in the absence of an ego, or a mental self, but there can be a meta-awareness; an awareness of phenomenal green. An awareness of awareness. Sarte seems to assert that there is by default an awareness of awareness...

So would Sarte say "green" is consciousness but also arises within consciousness; so despite manifesting as green, green is still consciousness. Thus, an awareness of green is an awareness of consciousness?

(2) For example, consciousness might not "seem", upon reflection, to be brain process, but it is not clear from this "seeming" that consciousness is not, in fact, a brain process.

As noted, this has been my main criticism of studying consciousness using phenomenology alone.
 
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As far as I have ever been able to determine, the discipline of phenomenology doesn't concern itself with the ontology of consciousness, but rather on describing what it's like to be consciousness itself.

Thus, a phenomenologist wouldn't be concerned with whether consciousness was ontologically some non-physical substance, an energy field, constituted of an as-yet-unknown particle, a property of certain brain states, a property of certain chemical reactions, information, etc. A phenomenologist is only concerned with describing what its like to be consciousness. Right, wrong, neither, or both?

Right, wrong, neither, or both?

I can't believe I missed this invitation to tetralemma!
 
Chalmers is wrong to say that the hard problem of consciousness is the problem of experience. I think the problem of experience is explained by hierarchical construct theory, and that the hard problem is the 'elephant in the room' that no philosophers seem to want to mention:

Facing up to the Hard Problem of Consciousness


'Facing up to the problem of consciousness' is the much debated philosophy paper by David Chalmers that has ploughed not so much a line, but a demarcation trench through the central battleground of the philosophy of consciousness. The article, written in 1995, is celebrated for articulating the view that there is a uniquely "hard problem" in deciphering consciousness in that any theory must adequately explain the specific characteristics and the textural qualities of experience. As an article, it might well have been intended to clarify the problem of consciousness or even to unite opinion. Instead, it has had the effect of entrenching opposing views, heightening the sense that between the ranks lies an inhospitable no-mans-land with an assortment of booby-traps and razor-wire to catch the unsuspecting. . . ."

There's a lot of sturm und drang in your description of the "entrenching [of] opposing views" as a result of Chalmer's identification of the hard problem. Why? The struggle to understand and account for the hard problem is what has made consciousness studies such an absorbing and expanding interdisciplinary inquiry for the past 30 years now.

Is an explanation of phenomenal experience truly an explanation of consciousness? HCT informs us that it is not.

Who claims that "an explanation of phenomenal experience [is] truly an explanation of consciousness? Phenomenal experience is the explanandum, not the explanation, as Varela laboriously demonstrated, as neurophenomenology makes clear. You are oversimplifying phenomenal and cognitive experience, a problem in your presentation that can only be resolved by your reading an adequate amount of phenomenological philosophy and phenomenologically informed science.

One may explain the how and why of the chemistry of ripening apples, but this insight need not by necessity explain what it might be to ripen for an individual apple. Alternatively, the insight of gravity and how it relates to a falling apple does not give insights as to what it is like to be a particular individual falling apple. Now it is true we assume, that it is nothing to be ‘what it is like’ as a individual ripening or falling apple. But this is not the assumption we make of other human individuals. We do assume that there is 'something it is like' to be other individual conscious humans. We assume that human individuals experience phenomena in such a way that gives substance to the quality behind their feelings of experiencing the world.
One can 'imagine' that there is the potential to explain the chemistry of the brain, just as one might explain the chemistry of ripening apples. One can imagine being able to understand the physiology of cerebral structures in great detail. And yet whilst we may be content knowing the chemistry and physiology of ripening and falling apples, or might understand the chemistry and physiology of the brain, there is yet more to answer when it comes to consciousness.
Understanding consciousness is more than understanding the causal or correlative mechanisms and physiology of the organ that appears to produce it (see section 4 below ‘Of Causation, correlation, and explanation’). If philosophers or scientists were to provide an explanation of phenomenal consciousness, it would by necessity tell us with clarity and certainty what it feels like, if anything, to be an apple. Even so, this still is not a sufficient conclusion to the problem of consciousness. To describe why and how individuals with a conscious first-person perspective of experience must exist, is not necessarily to explain how any given individual’s first-person perspective actually exists:
If you decide to recognise your own distinctive conscious identity, then you are also compelled to recognise that there is no current scientific knowledge or philosophical framework that can hope to encompass the identity of your particular self as distinct from anyone else’s; for any such explanation must be not just person specific, but specifically individuated to you. And so, a full account of consciousness, in contrast to an explanation of phenomenal experience, requires an explanation that identifies, not just the uniqueness of the first-person phenomenal perspective, but the distinctly personal consciousness of every viable individual. Such an explanation would have to explain, unlikely as it may seem, you and me individually, rather than merely explain how and why phenomenal of conscious experience, for example, is an emergent consequence of physics.

Here you've changed the subject {the nature of consciousness and mind} and moved the goalposts off the field. And given short shrift to the important physical, biological, and biophysical contributions to the deepening inquiry into the nature of consciousness and mind. I do not see an account in what you've posted of the basis on which you reify 'individual identity' as fixed from birth as some immutable essence that becomes the problem to be solved. This is a position you need to explicate, account for, justify on scientific grounds as well as philosophical grounds.

A reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience, which us humans identify as consciousness, is not going to provide a full account of the conscious identity we each possess about ourselves in contrast to any other selves.

Nor need it. Experience is the ground of what humans and other animals feel, learn, and can think about the nature of reality, i.e., what-is. And there is no viable "reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience" on offer, at least not one to be taken seriously. Experience in and of the world, for any conscious or protoconscious entity, is open-ended, temporal, changing in change.

This re-enforces the point I made at the conclusion to the book’s Introduction:
When a human looks in a mirror and sees his or her face, he or she sees a material incarnation of an exceptional event that has never before occurred in the history of the universe nor will ever occur in the future of the universe - namely, that particular conscious individual has looked at themselves. What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference?

Your points might reinforce one another, Pharoah, but what's needed is reinforcement of their validity. Of course we are all separate individuals, but our 'identities' are not fixed. We live in change as Whitehead makes clear; we experience change and carry it forward in our existence, and we apply our changing perspectives {more or less rational, more or less enlightened} in projects that change the circumstances of the local world, for better or worse, for ourselves and others. The question you ask above -- What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference? -- begs innumerable questions and seems to express an implicit belief that the innumerable experiences had in the world by sentient organisms that interact with one another could all be pre-determined by nature or physics. Where are you going with this? It's really not clear.

Whilst I claim that HCT provides a reductive explanation of phenomenal experience, I am of the view that an explanation of every individual’s self requires an additional level of explanation. This aspect of consciousness I interpret, as the problem of noumenal consciousness. In chapter 7, I take this particular and additional problem of personal self-identity head on. For now, the point to emphasise is that the problem of consciousness is not entirely encapsulated by the notion of the ‘problem of experience’. It is for this reason that I express the view that the Hard Problem of consciousness is not the problem of providing an explanation of phenomenal experience as Chalmers suggests, but that of providing an explanation of noumenal consciousness. This distinction between the phenomenon of consciousness (which does necessitate the possession of a first-person perspective but is nevertheless, non-self identity specific) and the individuated self (which is curiously affiliated to, specifically us, and only us individually), is what I call ‘The Elephant in the Philosophy of Consciousness Room’ issue because it is not a distinction that is often made. The distinction is important, because, for example, if one were to hold the view as I do, that one can reductively explain phenomenal consciousness without explaining noumenal consciousness, then one must also conclude that such a reductive explanation need not infringe on the dualist’s stance or decisively determine the nature of the battleground to be waged for or against physicalism.

Can you explain what you mean by 'noumenal consciousness'? In Husserl's philosophy, from which you are drawing this terminology, the noetic and the noumenal are both implicated in perceptual and cognitive consciousness -- both are expressed in phenomenological consciousness. This paper might be useful to you at this point:

http://faculty.fordham.edu/drummond/Phenomenology%20and%20Ontology.pdf


In other words, a reductive explanation of phenomenal experience does not prove or disprove physicalism - it has no impact or bearing on the physicalism versus dualism debate whatsoever. It is clear from Chalmers' writing and others, that this distinction is entirely unappreciated (hence the "elephant in the room") - for Chalmers the problem of consciousness is the problem of experience and in being so, pits physicalism up against dualism over the question of phenomenal experience. My stance, which is enabled by Hierarchical Construct Theory, allows one to come to terms with a reductive explanation of first-person phenomenally conscious experiences, and yet still hold dear the mystery of self-existence - the explanation of which might yet be shown to have dual aspects to it or to be entirely physical.


I don't think you will ultimately be able to defend a "reductive explanation of phenomenal experience" through HCT, and my advice is that you shouldn't attempt to do so in the first place before you understand the phenomenology of consciousness as developed in the philosophies of Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre, and Merleau-Ponty.

Gotta go, but I'll come back to the rest of your post this evening.
 
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There's a lot of sturm und drang in your description of the "entrenching [of] opposing views" as a result of Chalmer's identification of the hard problem. Why? The struggle to understand and account for the hard problem is what has made consciousness studies such an absorbing and expanding interdisciplinary inquiry for the past 30 years now.

Who claims that "an explanation of phenomenal experience [is] truly an explanation of consciousness? Phenomenal experience is the explanandum, not the explanation, as Varela laboriously demonstrated, as neurophenomenology makes clear. You are oversimplifying phenomenal and cognitive experience, a problem in your presentation that can only be resolved by your reading an adequate amount of phenomenological philosophy and phenomenologically informed science.

Here you've changed the subject {the nature of consciousness and mind} and moved the goalposts off the field. And given short shrift to the important physical, biological, and biophysical contributions to the deepening inquiry into the nature of consciousness and mind. I do not see an account in what you've posted of the basis on which you reify 'individual identity' as fixed from birth as some immutable essence that becomes the problem to be solved. This is a position you need to explicate, account for, justify on scientific grounds as well as philosophical grounds.

Nor need it. Experience is the ground of what humans and other animals feel, learn, and can think about the nature of reality, i.e., what-is. And there is no viable "reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience" on offer, at least not one to be taken seriously. Experience in and of the world, for any conscious or protoconscious entity, is open-ended, temporal, changing in change.

Your points might reinforce one another, Pharoah, but what's needed is reinforcement of their validity. Of course we are all separate individuals, but our 'identities' are not fixed. We live in change as Whitehead makes clear; we experience change and carry it forward in our existence, and we apply our changing perspectives {more or less rational, more or less enlightened} in projects that change the circumstances of the local world, for better or worse, for ourselves and others. The question you ask above -- What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference? -- begs innumerable questions and seems to express an implicit belief that the innumerable experiences had in the world by sentient organisms that interact with one another could all be pre-determined by nature or physics. Where are you going with this? It's really not clear.

Can you explain what you mean by 'noumenal consciousness'? In Husserl's philosophy, from which you are drawing this terminology, the noetic and the noumenal are both implicated in perceptual and cognitive consciousness -- both are expressed in phenomenological consciousness. This paper might be useful to you at this point:

http://faculty.fordham.edu/drummond/Phenomenology%20and%20Ontology.pdf


I don't think you will ultimately be able to defend a "reductive explanation of phenomenal experience" through HCT, and my advice is that you shouldn't attempt to do so in the first place before you understand the phenomenology of consciousness as developed in the philosophies of Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre, and Merleau-Ponty.

Gotta go, but I'll come back to the rest of your post this evening.

1. “There's a lot of sturm und drang in your description of the "entrenching [of] opposing views" as a result of Chalmer's identification of the hard problem. Why?”


Because I think that Chalmers has always sought to unite opinion, but much of writing has led to entrenched stances.


2. ”Who claims that an explanation of phenomenal experience [is] truly an explanation of consciousness?”

When I express this view, I am perhaps making incorrectly inference from Chalmers: “The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of experience. Humans beings have subjective experience: there is something it is like to be them. We can say that a being is conscious in this sense — or is phenomenally conscious, as it is sometimes put — when there is something it is like to be that being. A mental state is conscious when there is something it is like to be in that state. Conscious states include states of perceptual experience, bodily sensation, mental imagery, emotional experience, occurrent thought, and more. There is something it is like to see a vivid green, to feel a sharp pain, to visualize the Eiffel tower, to feel a deep regret, and to think that one is late. Each of these states has a phenomenal character, with phenomenal properties (or qualia) characterizing what it is like to be in the state.” (Chalmers, Consciousness and its Place in Nature)

In other words to explain "experience" is to explain consciousness (the hard bit of it - the other bits are “easy”)

3. “Here you've changed the subject {the nature of consciousness and mind} and moved the goalposts off the field.... I do not see an account in what you've posted of the basis on which you reify 'individual identity' as fixed from birth as some immutable essence that becomes the problem to be solved. This is a position you need to explicate, account for, justify on scientific grounds as well as philosophical grounds.”

No I haven’t moved the goalposts off the field. I am saying Chalmers is confusing the philosophy that targets an individual’s personal and individuated inflection of experience, with the philosophy concerned with the generalisable phenomenon of phenomenal experience. Something you do also which is why you think I have moved the posts. It is a different problem I grant you, it is just that you and Chalmers do not realise it.

4. “there is no viable "reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience" on offer, at least not one to be taken seriously.”

You are wrong. Hierarchical Construct theory does provide a powerful reductive explanation. You need to open your mind to the possibility without fear that it, in some way, attacks your beloved phenomenological leanings.

5. “Your points might reinforce one another, Pharoah, but what's needed is reinforcement of their validity.”

I disagree. It is incumbent on others to analyse my work and to identify its flaws. I don’t have to prove anything - there is no existing theory of consciousness that is valid. I will defend my theory when someone is serious enough to come up with a reasonable challenge to it and I will try to improve my explication of it where there is misunderstand.

6. “What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference? -- begs innumerable questions and seems to express an implicit belief that the innumerable experiences had in the world by sentient organisms that interact with one another could all be pre-determined by nature or physics. Where are you going with this? It's really not clear.”

It’s kind of rhetorical. It is saying that I can say why phenomenal consciousness exists and has its characteristics, but I can’t explain why our individuated consciousness happens to be the one that it is, rather than any other. Perhaps I am unclear.

7. “Can you explain what you mean by 'noumenal consciousness'?”

I first found out about this forum because you referenced my article about noumenal consciousness (and attributed it to Frank Jackson - which was rather complementary) 2 Noumenal Consciousness | Philosophy of Consciousness
In is the article where I take a stab at the problem of individuated identity through a speculative exploration of noumenal consciousness. I think of noumenal as everything that is not phenomenal, but that which is not nothing, but could be. Incidentally, I borrowed the terminology from Kant not Husserl.

8. “I don't think you will ultimately be able to defend a "reductive explanation of phenomenal experience" through HCT”

Well... lol... I await to be challenged by a coherent argument that attacks it.
 
So, again, I don't see where a phenomenologist would necessarily be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness. Indeed, I can see why a phenomenologist might think any attempt to explain the origin and/or ontological nature of consciousness as being reductive.

Soupie, the discoveries and recognitions of the phenomenology of perception and consciousness produced a new ontology, worked out in the philosophies of Heidegger, Sartre, Merleau-Ponty and others. Here's a paper that illuminates MP's later ontology {before his untimely death from a heart attack at 53} built on his concept of the 'flesh' of the world [in which living organisms participate] and the consequent chiasmic relationship of consciousness/mind with nature, discussed in the paper as these concepts have been further analyzed by more recent philosophers. (You might have to join the website to download the paper, but as I recall joining is free).

Flesh and Nature: Understanding Merleau-Ponty's Relational Ontology | Bryan Bannon - Academia.edu

Not neccessarily is probably right - and might think is possibly right (I defer to @Constance on that) but I don't think it goes for all of phenemonology.

Steve is right. Phenomenology has been applied as a method in many fields, including psychiatry and psychology, anthropology and archaeology, aesthetics, cultural theory, and literary theory and criticism, where its ontological significance is not always of major concern. But the philosophy itself is inherently ontological, and phenomenological ontology has been most fully expressed by Sartre and especially by Merleau-Ponty.

One of the things you get from a bit of reading in philosophy is that labelling schools of thoughts is mostly for encyclopedic convenience - fortunately for the SEP Thales, et al had the prescience ("before science") to call themselves Pre-Socratics long before Socrates came along.

;)

I don't know, but I'll wager few people other than Husserl were pure phenomenologists and Husserl himself had to come out of another tradition before he could invent phenomenology. After that what phenomenology is ... is what people who uses phenomenlogical methods and generally refer to themselves as phenomenologists do. This mentioned in the article in re: Heidegger and how different an idea of phenomenology that is from Husserl.

I think it's fair to say that Husserl was a 'pure phenomenologist' to the extent that he concentrated on developing the method, but he also shared in contemplating the philosophical significance of the method's recognitions concerning the situated nature of consciousness, mind, and meaning and developed the recognition of the radical temporality of all of these and the lived experience in the world that produces them. You might want to see his Phenomenology of Internal Time Conciousness.

Here are two more specific counter argumentes:

1. "Philosophers have sometimes argued that one of these fields is “first philosophy”, the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests. Historically (it may be argued), Socrates and Plato put ethics first, then Aristotle put metaphysics or ontology first, then Descartes put epistemology first, then Russell put logic first, and then Husserl (in his later transcendental phase) put phenomenology first."

So Husserl claims phenomenology is "first philosophy", which means phenomenology is

"... the most fundamental discipline, on which all philosophy or all knowledge or wisdom rests."

Then it seems hard to understand why someone claiming to practice the most fundamental discipline - undergirding all philosophy (or all knowledge or wisdom) wouldn't

"... be concerned with, or needs have an opinion about, the ontology of consciousness."

That would be to say the foundation on which all knowledge rests has nothing to say about the ontology of consciousness. (or would it ... ? There are counter-arguments
)

Yes, it would. But most scientists and many philosophers of science (and philosophers of mind) coming from analytic (formerly called positivist) commitments and premises (and presuppositions) have not read phenomenological philosophy -- and resist doing so because it runs counter to their presuppositions.


2. and here I wonder if you actually read the article, because just below where you leave off above:
  • Ontology is the study of beings or their being — what is.
  • Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
  • Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
  • Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
  • Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.
The domains of study in these five fields are clearly different, and they seem to call for different methods of study. ...

... right below this it continues with a more in depth look:

"Consider ontology. Phenomenology studies (among other things) the nature of consciousness, which is a central issue in metaphysics or ontology, and one that leads into the traditional mind-body problem. Husserlian methodology would bracket the question of the existence of the surrounding world, thereby separating phenomenology from the ontology of the world. Yet Husserl's phenomenology presupposes theory about species and individuals (universals and particulars), relations of part and whole, and ideal meanings — all parts of ontology."

If you did read this part, it seems a little misleading not to have quoted it as it adds the nuance that makes an argument a discussion.

Yes, I noticed that too. Also Soupie, you include some of your own comments as part of the SEP article, which is misleading.

Just based on this statement:

"Phenomenology studies (among other things) the nature of consciousness"

As far as I have ever been able to determine, the discipline of phenomenology doesn't concern itself with the ontology of consciousness, but rather on describing what it's like to be consciousness itself.
Thus, a phenomenologist wouldn't be concerned with whether consciousness was ontologically some non-physical substance, an energy field, constituted of an as-yet-unknown particle, a property of certain brain states, a property of certain chemical reactions, information, etc. A phenomenologist is only concerned with describing what its like to be consciousness. Right, wrong, neither, or both?


The answer would be wrong.

Of course ... there are counter-arguments.

This appears to be the exchange that started this:

@Constance:
As a phenomenologist I've objected all along to the basic premise of IIT, that consciousness can be accounted for entirely by information processing and integration in the brain.

@Soupie
As far as I have ever been able to determine, the discipline of phenomenology doesn't concern itself with the ontology of consciousness, but rather on describing what it's like to be consciousness itself.

But @Constance objection to the basic premise of ITT might be supported by this from the SEP:

Consider epistemology. As we saw, phenomenology helps to define the phenomena on which knowledge claims rest, according to modern epistemology. On the other hand, phenomenology itself claims to achieve knowledge about the nature of consciousness, a distinctive kind of first-person knowledge, through a form of intuition.

So if knowledge about the nature of consciousness obtaned phenomenologically contradicts the statement that:

"... consciousness can be accounted for entirely by information processing and integration in the brain."

...

and ... it doesn't neccessariy have to make a final determination of the ontology of consciousness to do so, right? Or ... ?

Counter-arguments need to address and dismantle phenomenology's analysis of the phenomenal appearances of things as that which conscious beings encounter in the first place. And in the second place they need to address the logical consequences that follow for our possible conceptions of nature and of meaning available in existence.
 
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...I can say why phenomenal consciousness exists and has its characteristics, but I can’t explain why our individuated consciousness happens to be the one that it is, rather than any other.
Well, this certainly has my attention. I'm 150 pages into your book (yes, still 150 haha) and I haven't a clue how HCT closes the subjective-objective gap.

And how the gap can be closed physically but the sense of self remain unexplained baffles me.
 
1. “There's a lot of sturm und drang in your description of the "entrenching [of] opposing views" as a result of Chalmer's identification of the hard problem. Why?”


Because I think that Chalmers has always sought to unite opinion, but much of writing has led to entrenched stances.

I don't think Chalmers created the 'entrenched stances' between analytical and phenomenological philosophy; they existed before. I think he upset a lot of people because, given his position in POM, he effectively forced them to consider perspectives on consciousness and mind that they'd long resisted -- challenges to their own systems of 'thought'.


2. ”Who claims that an explanation of phenomenal experience [is] truly an explanation of consciousness?”

When I express this view, I am perhaps making incorrectly inference from Chalmers: “The hard problem of consciousness is the problem of experience. Humans beings have subjective experience: there is something it is like to be them. We can say that a being is conscious in this sense — or is phenomenally conscious, as it is sometimes put — when there is something it is like to be that being. A mental state is conscious when there is something it is like to be in that state. Conscious states include states of perceptual experience, bodily sensation, mental imagery, emotional experience, occurrent thought, and more. There is something it is like to see a vivid green, to feel a sharp pain, to visualize the Eiffel tower, to feel a deep regret, and to think that one is late. Each of these states has a phenomenal character, with phenomenal properties (or qualia) characterizing what it is like to be in the state.” (Chalmers, Consciousness and its Place in Nature)

In other words to explain "experience" is to explain consciousness (the hard bit of it - the other bits are “easy”)

'Easy' only by comparison with the hard problem. Mind and the consciousness that enables it are immensely complex, which is why I wrote that "phenomenal experience is the explanandum, not the explanation, as Varela laboriously demonstrated, as neurophenomenology makes clear. You are oversimplifying phenomenal and cognitive experience." Phenomenal experience is not simply 'how things feel' or 'what it's like to be a human or a bat'. It is the ground of our thinking as well as of our feeling in a world whose essential meaning is not given and might not exist. Indeed, in the circumstances the meaning is ours to make. If we don't begin with the ground of our experience {what we can know within all that we cannot know} our interpretations of reality easily become 'just so' stories about reality built on presuppositions -- including those of physicalist science as well as religion.


3. “Here you've changed the subject {the nature of consciousness and mind} and moved the goalposts off the field.... I do not see an account in what you've posted of the basis on which you reify 'individual identity' as fixed from birth as some immutable essence that becomes the problem to be solved. This is a position you need to explicate, account for, justify on scientific grounds as well as philosophical grounds.”

No I haven’t moved the goalposts off the field. I am saying Chalmers is confusing the philosophy that targets an individual’s personal and individuated inflection of experience, with the philosophy concerned with the generalisable phenomenon of phenomenal experience. Something you do also which is why you think I have moved the posts. It is a different problem I grant you, it is just that you and Chalmers do not realise it.

What is "the philosophy that targets an individual’s personal and individuated inflection of experience"?



4. “there is no viable "reductive explanation of the phenomenon of experience" on offer, at least not one to be taken seriously.”

You are wrong. Hierarchical Construct theory does provide a powerful reductive explanation. You need to open your mind to the possibility without fear that it, in some way, attacks your beloved phenomenological leanings.

I'm not afraid of HCT. I do wish you could find a more accessible way to define and explicate your theory because I have not found in parts of it that I've read a destruction or deconstruction of phenomenology, which appears to be what you'll need to provide if you wish to present a "powerful reductive explanation" of consciousness.


5. “Your points might reinforce one another, Pharoah, but what's needed is reinforcement of their validity.”

I disagree. It is incumbent on others to analyse my work and to identify its flaws. I don’t have to prove anything - there is no existing theory of consciousness that is valid. I will defend my theory when someone is serious enough to come up with a reasonable challenge to it and I will try to improve my explication of it where there is misunderstand.

Many of your potential readers will not see it that way without your demonstrating the inadequacy of other theories of consciousness.



6. “What elements of nature or physics could possibly determine one’s own specific frame of reference? -- begs innumerable questions and seems to express an implicit belief that the innumerable experiences had in the world by sentient organisms that interact with one another could all be pre-determined by nature or physics. Where are you going with this? It's really not clear.”

It’s kind of rhetorical. It is saying that I can say why phenomenal consciousness exists and has its characteristics, but I can’t explain why our individuated consciousness happens to be the one that it is, rather than any other. Perhaps I am unclear.

Or perhaps no single individuated consciousness can be completely accounted for. And perhaps no one else is trying to do so, contemplates that it would be possible to do so. I would guess that's the reality. But in that case, why raise the issue?


7. “Can you explain what you mean by 'noumenal consciousness'?”

I first found out about this forum because you referenced my article about noumenal consciousness (and attributed it to Frank Jackson - which was rather complementary) 2 Noumenal Consciousness | Philosophy of Consciousness
In is the article where I take a stab at the problem of individuated identity through a speculative exploration of noumenal consciousness. I think of noumenal as everything that is not phenomenal, but that which is not nothing, but could be. Incidentally, I borrowed the terminology from Kant not Husserl.

Was Kant's the last word then? If so, why has there been such an industry in interpreting his philosophy from a variety of perspectives, including the phenomenological?


8. “I don't think you will ultimately be able to defend a "reductive explanation of phenomenal experience" through HCT”

Well... lol... I await to be challenged by a coherent argument that attacks it.

Well, I'm sorry my comments and questions were not helpful. I do think some of them could help to improve the work and prevent attacks.
 
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