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Banned From The UFO Collective Google Group

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
#1 Tonnies was a far more skillful writer than Keel was in my opinion.
#2 Keel blatantly made some stuff up in the name of a good story. Tonnies didn't as far as I'm aware.
#3 Tonnies didn't necessarily believe his crypto terrestrial theory, I think he just wanted to make people think.
Could you please provide substantiation for this bald faced lie?
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
There was much, MUCH, more to the phone communications in the mothman than what you are simplifying for us here. Sure you're not confusing Richard Greer with John Keel here Burnt? Sounds like it. Keel NEVER immediately, as you are insinuating here, lied and jumped to "profitable" conclusions concerning the mothman. That's just BS. Keel is far and away not the only one, right up to this day among present UFO researchers, that make claims that malevolent forces interfered with phone conversations.
Here's a smattering of Keel's increasing paranoia about the many phone calls. They indicate someone who is randomly stringing together acasual events and drawing inferences from them. In some cases, IMHO, he's just making stuff up to fulfill his hard boiled detective novel feeling. He repeats ominous references to the devil visiting, demons, witchcraft and the marks of the devil being found on contactees.

Then there's his "system" that he created with contactees to get info from the demonic entities, along with the strange literary collage work he does with random insertions of UFO and paranormal lore from other writers, and his retelling of utterly bizarre, unverifiable contactee reports - it all demonstrates Keel's approach to confabulation. Reads well with a great pacing but mostly just weird unsubstantiated imagination. I find the anti-Asian sentiment regarding the suspicious looking characters with oriental features that the locals keep having contact with to be fear-mongering and borderline racist. It's hard to tell with all his own biographical insertions where the line between fiction and reality starts and stops, except where it's obviously invention.

1. Today "heavy breathers" plague telephone subscribers from coast to coast and are usually assumed to be sex nuts. When I received many such calls in 1967-68 I recorded some of them and studied the tapes. The sound is more mechanical or electronic than human and is probably caused by the introduction of a modulated current into the telephone line. This phenomenon is not isolated to the cities. People in remote towns with a population of only twenty-five or so also get these calls. The heavy breathing of the sex nut who (supposedly) masturbates while he listens to a female voice on the line contains certain recordable vocal characteristics which are totally absent in the heavy breathing calls I taped. Played at a slower speed, the recorded "breathing" was an evenly spaced series of pulses resembling the swishing sound of a phonograph when the needle reaches the end of the record and does not reject. Heavy breathing would not be so uniform.

2. "My phones have gone crazy," Mary Hyre noted, "even my unlisted numbers. Strangers call me at all hours of the day and night. Sometimes I get funny beeping sounds. Did you ever hear about anything like that?"
I had to admit I had. However, it had become my policy to say very little about these matters to anyone, even close friends.

3. Like everyone else, I was caught up in the games, mystery piling upon mystery. Someone somewhere obviously knew every move I was making, or so it seemed. I became very secretive, not even telling my closest friends where I was going or where I had been. Nevertheless, something seemed to be following me. I would drop in unannounced on a remote farm and soon after I settled down to chat with the residents their phone would ring and there would be no one on the line, or a series of loud beeps would ring out. The farmer would act astonished.
"We've never had a call like that before!"
The phone would ring repeatedly until I left.
This happened several different times in several different places.

4. I was now receiving many messages phrased in biblical terms. Some came from unknown elderly ladies who phoned me late at night claiming to be from Western Union. Then they would read long Bible quotations that were supposedly telegrams. But Western Union disavowed any knowledge of these messages. I had hooked up a tape recorder to my own phone so I could keep track of all these things.
"If it is the days of darkness," said a message received on July 23, "behold there will be voices, thunder and earthquakes and disturbances upon the earth. And at their cry all nations shall fight one against the other. And fear shall fall upon the earth and the sky shall be darkened except for the illuminating round lights that will be the only sparks of light. And rain shall come at the end of the happening.
"John: Do not trouble yourself over trivial matters such as strange calls. We're in greater danger than you can imagine. Not only is your world involved, but many others too."

5.Now they were even controlling my phone conversations!
Convinced that Pope Paul was about to be knifed to death at the Istanbul airport, I rented a car, loaded it with flashlights, candles, food, and bottled water, and drove out to the Mount Misery area to await the blackout. On the way I stopped to see one of my contactees and he informed me that a spaceman had just been to see him and had left a silly message.
"Tell John we'll meet with him later and help him drink all that water."
The contactee had no idea that I had several quarts of spring water in the trunk of the car.

It speaks for itself.
 
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Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
Yes, I think the David Lynch connection is very strong. Lynch persistently works to create sensations of dread underneath banal everyday events. Lynch's construction of hallucinatory experiences, psychological breaks and other paranoid manifestations of monsters, all swimming in the milieu of reality, is very Keelian indeed.

The owls were really Mothmen visiting town to learn how to twist
cherry stems into knots with their tongues to impress the ladies.
 
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Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
Here's a smattering of Keel's increasing paranoia about the many phone calls. They indicate someone who is randomly stringing together acasual events and drawing inferences from them. In some cases, IMHO, he's just making stuff up to fulfill his hard boiled detective novel feeling. He repeats ominous references to the devil visiting, demons, witchcraft and the marks of the devil being found on contactees.

Then there's his "system" that he created with contactees to get info from the demonic entities, along with the strange literary collage work he does with random insertions of UFO and paranormal lore from other writers, and his retelling of utterly bizarre, unverifiable contactee reports - it all demonstrates Keel's approach to confabulation. Reads well with a great pacing but mostly just weird unsubstantiated imagination. I find the anti-Asian sentiment regarding the suspicious looking characters with oriental features that the locals keep having contact with to be fear-mongering and borderline racist. It's hard to tell with all his own biographical insertions where the line between fiction and reality starts and stops, except where it's obviously invention.

1. Today "heavy breathers" plague telephone subscribers from coast to coast and are usually assumed to be sex nuts. When I received many such calls in 1967-68 I recorded some of them and studied the tapes. The sound is more mechanical or electronic than human and is probably caused by the introduction of a modulated current into the telephone line. This phenomenon is not isolated to the cities. People in remote towns with a population of only twenty-five or so also get these calls. The heavy breathing of the sex nut who (supposedly) masturbates while he listens to a female voice on the line contains certain recordable vocal characteristics which are totally absent in the heavy breathing calls I taped. Played at a slower speed, the recorded "breathing" was an evenly spaced series of pulses resembling the swishing sound of a phonograph when the needle reaches the end of the record and does not reject. Heavy breathing would not be so uniform.

2. "My phones have gone crazy," Mary Hyre noted, "even my unlisted numbers. Strangers call me at all hours of the day and night. Sometimes I get funny beeping sounds. Did you ever hear about anything like that?"
I had to admit I had. However, it had become my policy to say very little about these matters to anyone, even close friends.

3. Like everyone else, I was caught up in the games, mystery piling upon mystery. Someone somewhere obviously knew every move I was making, or so it seemed. I became very secretive, not even telling my closest friends where I was going or where I had been. Nevertheless, something seemed to be following me. I would drop in unannounced on a remote farm and soon after I settled down to chat with the residents their phone would ring and there would be no one on the line, or a series of loud beeps would ring out. The farmer would act astonished.
"We've never had a call like that before!"
The phone would ring repeatedly until I left.
This happened several different times in several different places.

4. I was now receiving many messages phrased in biblical terms. Some came from unknown elderly ladies who phoned me late at night claiming to be from Western Union. Then they would read long Bible quotations that were supposedly telegrams. But Western Union disavowed any knowledge of these messages. I had hooked up a tape recorder to my own phone so I could keep track of all these things.
"If it is the days of darkness," said a message received on July 23, "behold there will be voices, thunder and earthquakes and disturbances upon the earth. And at their cry all nations shall fight one against the other. And fear shall fall upon the earth and the sky shall be darkened except for the illuminating round lights that will be the only sparks of light. And rain shall come at the end of the happening.
"John: Do not trouble yourself over trivial matters such as strange calls. We're in greater danger than you can imagine. Not only is your world involved, but many others too."

5.Now they were even controlling my phone conversations!
Convinced that Pope Paul was about to be knifed to death at the Istanbul airport, I rented a car, loaded it with flashlights, candles, food, and bottled water, and drove out to the Mount Misery area to await the blackout. On the way I stopped to see one of my contactees and he informed me that a spaceman had just been to see him and had left a silly message.
"Tell John we'll meet with him later and help him drink all that water."
The contactee had no idea that I had several quarts of spring water in the trunk of the car.

It speaks for itself.
I still don't see this as "paranoiac" in the least providing that Keel was as straight and accurate about these matters, as he was about all that could and has been substantiated in terms of what he wrote.

I know you think Keel was basically what I credit Strieber with. The combination of a highly talented author mixed in with researcher equals self styled cartoons, right? Well, after having just watched all four parts of the sse talk that MR. Clark did, now I am CERTAIN it's Keel that was more so spot on in his assessments.

What Clark has done is to reduce all anomalous experience to subjectivity. If you have anything other than a basic pedestrian UFO sighting, you're having an experience anomaly, which in simple terms by the time the talk is complete, he basically states that he doesn't have a clue what that is, but it may be tied in with consciousness. Where have you heard that before? Again, we have a very honest man who is living by his own code. I respect that completely but certainly can't state with any conviction that Jerry knows anything that you or I don't. Truth.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Could you please provide substantiation for this bald faced lie?
#1 This very show:
Andy Colvin Talks About John Keel and More | The Paracast Community Forums

#2 I'm no liar, and with that I'm done with this forum. You've called me brainwashed and any number of things, completely made stuff up, ramble on and on thinking you've proved something when you haven't, are accusatory and rude. Now when I attempt to counter your assault with compassion you give more assault.

Why the forum mods let you go on like this I have no idea.
 
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trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
I would think that anyone who has studied Keel for any length of time would realize he was an imaginative writer prone to exaggeration and not above padding a story. I mean, really Jeff, you aren't hip to that?

I'd hate to see you go marduk.
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
#1 This very show:
Andy Colvin Talks About John Keel and More | The Paracast Community Forums

#2 I'm no liar, and with that I'm done with this forum and this show. You've called me brainwashed and any number of things, completely made stuff up, ramble on and on thinking you've proved something when you haven't, are accusatory and rude. Now when I attempt to counter your assault with compassion you give more assault.

Why the forum mods let you go on like this I have no idea.
Seems you can dish it out but have a hard time swallowing the same pills that you recommend. It's OK to call people liars because someone else did, right? The educated ARE brainwashed. Sorry. Just a fact. You're too sensitive to even participate on an internet forum. Have a nice day.
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
I would think that anyone who has studied Keel for any length of time would realize he was an imaginative writer prone to exaggeration and not above padding a story. I mean, really Jeff, you aren't hip to that?

I'd hate to see you go marduk.
All I have asked for is substantiation. There is NOTHING wrong with that when someone calls someone else a liar. We all do it constantly on this forum. This person is being exceedingly petty and over sensitive to an obvious degree. Take some Midol. Ridiculous. You want me to go? I'll go. NO problem in the least. I don't wish to ever be bad for business.
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
I'm no liar, and with that I'm done with this forum.
And that would be a shame. Those willing to consistently inject new ideas into this forum is what drives the environment. Without members like yourself providing that balanced, curious voice, that doesn't yell or insult, is quite valuable. I've enjoyed your fresh perspectives and hope you'll continue to participate in the dialogue, heteroglossia, polyphony etc.. Of course you're not a liar. Don't let the cacophony drive you away.
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
"Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.'" (Genesis 11:4)
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
And that would be a shame. Those willing to consistently inject new ideas into this forum is what drives the environment. Without members like yourself providing that balanced, curious voice, that doesn't yell or insult, is quite valuable. I've enjoyed your fresh perspectives and hope you'll continue to participate in the dialogue, heteroglossia, polyphony etc.. Of course you're not a liar. Don't let the cacophony drive you away.
Or more so precisely, one big loud mouthed and paranormally deranged individual named Jeff Davis. :oops: Whose fear based and thereby instinctually driven, gut level image based assertiveness that is often perceived as rude or aggressively inappropriate. So Sir Marduk, upon further reflection, and much cooler overhead, (hot air) it is with my fair complected, yet soiled Scotch/Irish smile, bowing in all the humility of my newly found shame, that I bid you apologies of the sincerest nature possible. peace/out.

Ps. I should use those emoticons more often as quite often the tower of the internet does have a way of making my fish Bable. Especially mine. :)
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
2) I would think that anyone who has studied Keel for any length of time would realize he was an imaginative writer prone to exaggeration and not above padding a story. 1) I mean, really Jeff, you aren't hip to that?
1) Back to the meat. No I am not hip to that, nor is anyone else, for that matter. I have heard the accusations all my life from as far back as I can remember. The truth is, I have yet to hear one shred of substantiation that really stands up. Clark is presently just plundering a left over ripple effect that was started by the pro UFO nuts n bolts authorship guild some 50 years ago. That's where 100% of these accusations were born, fed, and raised.

2) I would like you to tune into what is some legitimate insight. I know what false rumors can do to those innocently impressioned by their "sensible appeal". :D I would like you to listen first hand to what the world's foremost authority on John Keel has to say about John making things up. Then zero in on Gene as he lays bare the actual underworking's of one of the greatest and most enigmatic interlocking paranormal puzzle pieces ever pondered. The entity know as the Gray Moseley.

I will repeat that the ignorant might hear. Keel was extremely truthful and ultimately serious about conveying the truth to the very best of his ability.

Please start listening to this Paracast episode at 1:21:10 http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect....theparacast.com/podcasts/paracast_140112.mp3
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
All I have asked for is substantiation. There is NOTHING wrong with that when someone calls someone else a liar. We all do it constantly on this forum. This person is being exceedingly petty and over sensitive to an obvious degree. Take some Midol. Ridiculous. You want me to go? I'll go. NO problem in the least. I don't wish to ever be bad for business.
Don't be silly Jeff.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
My takeaway on Keel is that he was an entertainer first and foremost. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for him, however I recognize him for what he was, a sensationalist writer. You are welcome to your own opinion of him, of course.

Don Ecker did an excellent interview with him in which he makes a few surprising admissions. I don't have a link, but I 'm sure it can be easily found.
 


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