August 23, 2015 — Red Pill Junkie with Curt Collins

[LeBombette]

Great episode and as a possessor of a distinctive accent I really love hearing RPJ and Curt's accents create a symphony of phonetic culture...now add Goggs to that and it would be almost too much for a linguistic junkie like myself. Wondering if RPJ could list some of the books he mentioned on the podcast?

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Great episode and as a possessor of a distinctive accent I really love hearing RPJ and Curt's accents create a symphony of phonetic culture...now add Goggs to that and it would be almost too much for a linguistic junkie like myself. Wondering if RPJ could list some of the books he mentioned on the podcast?

As soon as I finish writing the Daily Grail news briefs, I'll do it [emoji6]

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[LeBombette]

As soon as I finish writing the Daily Grail news briefs, I'll do it [emoji6]

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Thankee sai, and certainly no rush...I only have a queue of about a zillion books to read, but I was really intrigued, especially by the owl one.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Thankee sai, and certainly no rush...I only have a queue of about a zillion books to read, but I was really intrigued, especially by the owl one.

The 'owl one' is Mike Clelland's, which (I think) he hasn't finished yet, and hence has not defined release date. I guess it will probably be published next year *fingers crossed*

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[LeBombette]

The 'owl one' is Mike Clelland's, which (I think) he hasn't finished yet, and hence has not defined release date. I guess it will probably be published next year *fingers crossed*

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Just read some of his excerpts from the book and love what I've read so far...hope it gets published and soon. Tangentially to the owl book, but not much else here - anyone that loves folklore and myth should check out the podcast Lore, but only after you have subscribed to Paracast+. It's certainly not for everyone, but folks that love story, myth, folklore and all things Fortean might find it intriguing.

 

[Burnt State]

If you haven't listened to Clelland's Hidden Experience then you are missing out on some very unique alternative approaches to the abduction phenomenon and the many odd threads and avenues that spill out from it.

 

[LeBombette]

If you haven't listened to Clelland's Hidden Experience then you are missing out on some very unique alternative approaches to the abduction phenomenon and the many odd threads and avenues that spill out from it.

I haven't, but I will now

 

[Sub-light]

"Theories"?? More like ramblings, really. These are all speculations for which I cannot offer evidence. At least I hope they are entertaining, though

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One thing we all have to own up to is the entertainment value of these types of shows. While we are all genuinely interested in finding out what the hell it is all about, I guess the speculating and the wondering and the discussing it can be fun and sometimes frustrating LOL. I guess one of the problems with ufology over the years is that to me it's like a snowball continuously collecting more stuff as it rolls down the hill. It's not far-fetched to believe that many cultural things influence it over time. Things like early 1950s movies and even more recent things like the Barney and Betty hill case and all of the other cases on TV and various sci-fi movies as well. Add to it things like near death experience is an other traumatic events in peoples lives and you have a whole host of interesting stuff to mix into the experience soup. Oh yeah, let's not forget all those fine boys and girls at DARPA and all the fun military toys that have come out over the years too...
Although I am interested in and curious about various paranormal/UFO experiences and theories in more recent times, my real fascination and interest is in the earliest cases. I feel sometimes like people who believe in "flying saucers" are kind of put down on the show. I feel like I'm being told "Oh you're one of those people that still believe in flying saucers, well, we've moved way beyond that. It's something so much more exotic and spiritual and paranormal and ????"
To me it seems implied that what was going on and the early days, is the same thing that's been happening since, it was just interpreted differently and I don't believe that. I believe that when these things first started to appear they were solid objects and were aerodynamic vehicles that were intelligently controlled. As time moved on the snowball effect began and with each year more and more junk climbed on board the UFO snowball to the point to where it's just a big giant weird complex thing. Not that that's not interesting to discuss or "Theorize" or ramble as you call it.

Maybe it's because I am a history nut or I am too mechanical? I guess for me going over the early history is more concrete for me. I've just started reading Ted Blochers book (again) and read Donald Keyhoe stuff. I know that is meaningless in today's context when you consider some of the weird stuff people are reporting more recently.

I can see how it would be easy to believe that some kind of weird portal to another dimension or universe opened up and ever since then all this weird stuff has come out of it.... But then here we go with another modern influence. A little "Stargate" anyone...

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Although I am interested in and curious about various paranormal/UFO experiences and theories in more recent times, my real fascination and interest is in the earliest cases. I feel sometimes like people who believe in "flying saucers" are kind of put down on the show. I feel like I'm being told "Oh you're one of those people that still believe in flying saucers, well, we've moved way beyond that. It's something so much more exotic and spiritual and paranormal and ????"
To me it seems implied that what was going on and the early days, is the same thing that's been happening since, it was just interpreted differently and I don't believe that. I believe that when these things first started to appear they were solid objects and were aerodynamic vehicles that were intelligently controlled. As time moved on the snowball effect began and with each year more and more junk climbed on board the UFO snowball to the point to where it's just a big giant weird complex thing. Not that that's not interesting to discuss or "Theorize" or ramble as you call it.

Maybe it's because I am a history nut or I am too mechanical? I guess for me going over the early history is more concrete for me. I've just started reading Ted Blochers book (again) and read Donald Keyhoe stuff. I know that is meaningless in today's context when you consider some of the weird stuff people are reporting more recently.

I can see how it would be easy to believe that some kind of weird portal to another dimension or universe opened up and ever since then all this weird stuff has come out of it.... But then here we go with another modern influence. A little "Stargate" anyone...

You say the first flying saucer reports were of 'aerodynamic vehicles', and yet some of those sightings describe things which were so *completely* against the laws of aerodynamics, they wouldn't have been able to lift from the ground. Also, it's interesting how we have reports of metallic objects with 'rivets' and 'portholes'; something which would seriously compromise the integrity of a vehicle coming in and out our atmosphere --not to mention how we ourselves have moved on from such primitive construction methods and now are delving into the use ceramic materials, composite materials and even 3d-printing [emoji6]

Granted, some 'nuts-and-bolters' feel that moving from the ETH to the IDH is only a sly sleight of hand, while we remain as ignorant as ever about the true origin and intention of the phenomenon. And they may have a point; but nevertheless, I guess it's still important to point out the many holes the ETH has, and to remind the UFO community how, as valid as it may have been or still is, it nevertheless remains an unproved hypothesis.

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[red_pill_junkie]

Great episode and as a possessor of a distinctive accent I really love hearing RPJ and Curt's accents create a symphony of phonetic culture...now add Goggs to that and it would be almost too much for a linguistic junkie like myself. Wondering if RPJ could list some of the books he mentioned on the podcast?

Apologies for the tardiness. So let's see about those books I mentioned (as I remember them, since I haven't listened to the episode yet [emoji16] )

- Final Events, by Nick Redfern --although I'd also recommend his books abput Contactees, named (appropriately enough) Contactees
- Project Beta, by Greg Bishop
- Magic, Mysticism & the Molecule, by Micah Hanks --I'd also recommed The UFO Singularity
- The Cryptoterrestrials, by Mac Tonnies
- A Trojan Feast, by Joshua Cutchin -- again I'd recommend Josh as a future guest on The Paracast.
- Silver Screen Saucers, by Robbie Graham (soon to be published)
- Mike Clelland's owl book (soon to be published, and title remains to be specified)

Here's another one I *should* have mentioned: Paul Kimball's The Other Side of Truth

And if you happen to like graphic novels/comic books, I urge to check out Grant Morrison's The Invisibles, and Alan Moore's Promethea [emoji41]

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[Azz7092]

i think what people are now saying is that we need to be broader minded in this field, its not as simple as it once was theres so many avenues to go down.

 

[Sub-light]

You say the first flying saucer reports were of 'aerodynamic vehicles', and yet some of those sightings describe things which were so *completely* against the laws of aerodynamics, they wouldn't have been able to lift from the ground. Also, it's interesting how we have reports of metallic objects with 'rivets' and 'portholes'; something which would seriously compromise the integrity of a vehicle coming in and out our atmosphere --not to mention how we ourselves have moved on from such primitive construction methods and now are delving into the use ceramic materials, composite materials and even 3d-printing [emoji6]

Granted, some 'nuts-and-bolters' feel that moving from the ETH to the IDH is only a sly sleight of hand.

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I'm not talking about any and all reports that were made in the 40s/50s . When I say early reports I'm talking about only the first few reports taken during the Saucer wave of the summer of 1947. The reports between June and July. And even most of those I throw out. Now I know there were these blue lights that people were seeing and they operated in a more exotic way but I still feel that they were real objects too.
The majority of reports between the end of June and the first week of July 1947 described metallic disks that did not spin and had a flat or concaved piece cut out of the back. Whenever I talk about this, people come at me with yeah but what about the football shaped ones and the round shaped ones and the ones that looked like this and that... I think that people were seeing the same nine (?) objects it was just their perspective or how they saw them or even their eyesight but I think that during those few weeks people were saying the same thing. But after that everybody wanted to be "in the club" and so they went looking for stuff.
So what I am trying to say here is that I am curious about that wave and wish there was more detail.
I am not trying to suggest that all of the other reports and the rest of ufology isn't worth looking into. All I know is that in the summer of 1947 no one was looking for Aliens or UFOs or spaceships. In fact if you were to go back in time and asked somebody on July 7th what these things are, none of them would say, "oh they're aliens" most people that back then would probably tell you "they're some kind of new jet aren't they?"
When it comes to Visual reports; the analogy I like to use is that of the police looking for a suspect vehicle. They look for a consistent trend. When most of the reports suggest a blue car for example they tend to be interested in reports of a blue car. But when people start calling him about every other car they see they have to throw those examples out.
Over the decades The reports of gotten stranger and more exotic and I don't know what people are seeing if they're even seeing thing? maybe they're just looking for attention or who knows.
As for the initial wave in 47 what's my personal theory? I think it's entirely possible that they were. extraterrestrials. Why not? And maybe they are something else?
The problem with this field of study is questions, questions, questions and almost no answers. Ufology reminds me of astronomy, before the invention of the telescope.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Great episode and as a possessor of a distinctive accent I really love hearing RPJ and Curt's accents create a symphony of phonetic culture...now add Goggs to that and it would be almost too much for a linguistic junkie like myself. Wondering if RPJ could list some of the books he mentioned on the podcast?

You will be hearing from me again sooner than you might think!

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

Just thought about this-RPJ's skype was kind of off. I listened to the ad-free Paracast+ version and it was hard to hear him. Not because of his accent it was the audio. Thought it might help to know for next time.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

I'm not talking about any and all reports that were made in the 40s/50s . When I say early reports I'm talking about only the first few reports taken during the Saucer wave of the summer of 1947. The reports between June and July. And even most of those I throw out. Now I know there were these blue lights that people were seeing and they operated in a more exotic way but I still feel that they were real objects too.
The majority of reports between the end of June and the first week of July 1947 described metallic disks that did not spin and had a flat or concaved piece cut out of the back. Whenever I talk about this, people come at me with yeah but what about the football shaped ones and the round shaped ones and the ones that looked like this and that... I think that people were seeing the same nine (?) objects it was just their perspective or how they saw them or even their eyesight but I think that during those few weeks people were saying the same thing. But after that everybody wanted to be "in the club" and so they went looking for stuff.
So what I am trying to say here is that I am curious about that wave and wish there was more detail.
I am not trying to suggest that all of the other reports and the rest of ufology isn't worth looking into. All I know is that in the summer of 1947 no one was looking for Aliens or UFOs or spaceships. In fact if you were to go back in time and asked somebody on July 7th what these things are, none of them would say, "oh they're aliens" most people that back then would probably tell you "they're some kind of new jet aren't they?"
When it comes to Visual reports; the analogy I like to use is that of the police looking for a suspect vehicle. They look for a consistent trend. When most of the reports suggest a blue car for example they tend to be interested in reports of a blue car. But when people start calling him about every other car they see they have to throw those examples out.
Over the decades The reports of gotten stranger and more exotic and I don't know what people are seeing if they're even seeing thing? maybe they're just looking for attention or who knows.
As for the initial wave in 47 what's my personal theory? I think it's entirely possible that they were. extraterrestrials. Why not? And maybe they are something else?
The problem with this field of study is questions, questions, questions and almost no answers. Ufology reminds me of astronomy, before the invention of the telescope.

I see your point. Bit the thing is IMHO UFOlogy (and other fringe fields) have erred over the years of nit-picking the types of cases which might reinforce their particular pet theory. Meanwhile there are few people willing to look at this phenomenon in its totality. Something John Keel pointed out in Operation Trojan Horse when he said the 'soft' UFO sightings (the boring ones of undescriptive lights) not only comprise the majority of our database, but should be looked further, since it may very well be the TRUE appearance of the phenomenon --before it 'transmogeifies' to suit our given expectations [emoji12]

But I agree the ETH shouldn't be discarded entirely. Only that people should be aware of other hypothesis. Especially skeptics! Did you guys read Seth Shostak's op-ed on the Huffington Post? Sheeeesh...

You wanna find ETH fanatics? Go to SETI and the JREF [emoji41]

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[Gene Steinberg]

Just thought about this-RPJ's skype was kind of off. I listened to the ad-free Paracast+ version and it was hard to hear him. Not because of his accent it was the audio. Thought it might help to know for next time.

He just has a poor Internet connection. We did the best we could.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

Just thought about this-RPJ's skype was kind of off. I listened to the ad-free Paracast+ version and it was hard to hear him. Not because of his accent it was the audio. Thought it might help to know for next time.

We did suffer a few technical problems on my end, and for that I apologize [emoji29]

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[Mr. Fibuli]

He just has a poor Internet connection. We did the best we could.

You guys always do a great job

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

We did suffer a few technical problems on my end, and for that I apologize [emoji29]

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No apologies-you're a cool fella

 

[Burnt State]

I'm not talking about any and all reports that were made in the 40s/50s . When I say early reports I'm talking about only the first few reports taken during the Saucer wave of the summer of 1947. The reports between June and July. And even most of those I throw out. Now I know there were these blue lights that people were seeing and they operated in a more exotic way but I still feel that they were real objects too.
The majority of reports between the end of June and the first week of July 1947 described metallic disks that did not spin and had a flat or concaved piece cut out of the back. Whenever I talk about this, people come at me with yeah but what about the football shaped ones and the round shaped ones and the ones that looked like this and that... I think that people were seeing the same nine (?) objects it was just their perspective or how they saw them or even their eyesight but I think that during those few weeks people were saying the same thing. But after that everybody wanted to be "in the club" and so they went looking for stuff.
So what I am trying to say here is that I am curious about that wave and wish there was more detail.
I am not trying to suggest that all of the other reports and the rest of ufology isn't worth looking into. All I know is that in the summer of 1947 no one was looking for Aliens or UFOs or spaceships. In fact if you were to go back in time and asked somebody on July 7th what these things are, none of them would say, "oh they're aliens" most people that back then would probably tell you "they're some kind of new jet aren't they?"
When it comes to Visual reports; the analogy I like to use is that of the police looking for a suspect vehicle. They look for a consistent trend. When most of the reports suggest a blue car for example they tend to be interested in reports of a blue car. But when people start calling him about every other car they see they have to throw those examples out.
Over the decades The reports of gotten stranger and more exotic and I don't know what people are seeing if they're even seeing thing? maybe they're just looking for attention or who knows.
As for the initial wave in 47 what's my personal theory? I think it's entirely possible that they were. extraterrestrials. Why not? And maybe they are something else?
The problem with this field of study is questions, questions, questions and almost no answers. Ufology reminds me of astronomy, before the invention of the telescope.

If I decided I was only interested in abductions that took place in the 70's, or that series of abductions in Tujunga Canyon during just the 50's but not the 60's would it make much of a difference? The phenomenon is continuous. The phenomenon has shifted from rivets and portholes to triangles with glowing red centres and now shimmering, enormous triangular arced objects.

But they also appear as tanks, as odd miniature geometric shapes, as honeycombed spiderwebs, like brick hotels, or translucent objects that float through trees or raise hell with wind and noise and terrify witnesses, or haunt them for years. If only one case or series of cases were examined it could be easily defined as ETH, as IDH or as pilgrims, or as hallucinations of the mind. But you can't help but look at the history if it all and recognize that the phenomenon appears to have multiple truths, to be paradoxical in nature, to be shy, perhaps invitational, but certainly extremely complex. Do you think an initial pilgrim set is currently responsible for the ephemeral, interdimensional and hallucinatory experiences we have had since that 1947 romantic era of flying saucers?

What about all these bizarre cases the predate this time period and stretch on back in time? There are many other cases that are part of this continuum of which '47 is a critical high point. I think you raise some very interesting sociological aspects, especially regarding the effects of the phenomenon and of cultural belief, and the clustering of sighting reports as part media induced. Highlighting various points in time does ask us to reconsider the nature of the mostly elusive boundaries of the phenomenon.

More than rambles, these odd comparisons and juxtapositions cause further thinking around the nature of methodologies to be pursued and to sideline theories and ideologies in favor of new perspectives and approaches. But I do think it will be this kind of push and pull tension, along with sudden cutting of said rope, that will move things forward.