Are Crop Circles all Bunk??

[trainedobserver]

I submit the following information to establish that select crop formations consist of unusual energy deposits and plant abnormalities on a cellular level:

The simple fact that alleged anomalies and abnormalities have been found in crop circles known to have been created by human beings makes these findings pretty inconsequential. That combined with the confessions of crop circle makers and the revelation of their methods renders any return on the pursuit of such research highly questionable in my view.

If people want to believe in some mysterious origin for crops circle they have to ignore the confessions of the makers and the overwhelming evidence that crop circles can and are made by human beings. They are certainly free to do that if they wish but they shouldn't expect to be taken seriously by those who do not ignore those things.

 

[trainedobserver]

There are more possibilities, arguably even more likely possibilities, than are allowed by flawed 'either/or' thinking that must conclude that either all crop circles are hoaxes or aliens are among us.

I would agree with you. They are not really "hoaxes" since the makers do not make any claims about them. The researchers do. They are neither hoaxes or paranormal creations, they are simply a graffiti-like art form. A human created complex crop circle is not a "hoax" it is the genuine article. The language used by researchers use is pretty telling.

 

[mike]

I conceed that some CC's are man made, the circlemaker.org site is evidence enough for that.
Is it evidence that ALL CC's are man made...... No its not
In addition there is evidence that clearly suggests some of them are unlikely to be the work of man.

The shredded wheat example took a back breaking 14 hours work, when you compare those "facts" to this case

“This event is especially noteworthy for several reasons; a pilot flying a light aircraft from Exeter to Thruxton flew over the field opposite Stonehenge at on the afternoon of Sunday 7 July with a passenger taking photographs, at which time the field opposite on the A303 was unmarked. The pilot disembarked at Thruxton, completed the necessary landing and flight forms, refuelled and then got back into the same plane to fly back to Exeter. Imagine his surprise on when flying over the same field opposite Stonehenge some 40 - 50 minutes later he observed an enormous formation measuring 915.2 X 508 ft imprinted in the wheat below. A gamekeeper and a guard at Stonehenge both confirmed that it had not been there that morning.
The formation was named the `Julia Set` as it represented a complex computer generated fractal image to the mathematicians; to musicians, a base clef, and to marine biologists the cross section of a nautilus.
Veteran researcher Colin Andrews tells me "The formation was first spotted from an aircraft at 6.15 PM. The pilot crossed over the field with a passenger (a medical doctor taking photographs) at 5.30pm”
There was nothing in the field at that time but “When the pilot returned at 6.15 PM he saw the formation in the field. “

It seems unlikely to me, that this is a MMCC.
Multiple witness's confirming a very complex pictogram put down in a very short time.
when you compare something simple like the shredded wheat pictogram which took 14 back breaking hours, with a complex julia set that took a maximum of 50 mins (it may have taken less time for all we know) that the MM parameters as stated by the makers themselves, that is these things even the simple one take a long time to lay down

We have people who believe that they are MM, we have people who believe they are ET made, we have no absolute proof they are all MM
Imo the phenomena is still an ongoing and genuine mystery because there are aspects of some cases that defy the MM explanation

 

[jjflash]

A well conceived rebuttal, lancemoody. I appreciate the time you invested in posting the link to the paper authored by Grassi, Cocheo and Russo.

Further review will show us that Haselhoff, among others, responded to the criticisms set forth. A reasonable argument could additionally be made that the criticisms were neither conclusive nor all inclusive of some very curious circumstances not addressed by the trio of researchers. This does not change the fact, however, that you indeed provided a professional rebuttal as I requested. Thank you.

I would like to clarify my current stance on the crop circle issue. As is the case with most circumstances in which debate is ongoing, I am suspending judgment on a conclusion pending more information.

It is of course well established and clearly evident that quite human beings can create complex formations within the cloak of a single evening. I do not dispute this in the least, as it is a verified fact.

I personally do not suspect that any previously discovered downed crops, geometrical or non-geometrical in shape, will ever prove to be the work of a non-human intelligence. I just do not think so.

I do think further research is justified that some crop formations may be related to military weapons testing and the perfecting of propaganda techniques. My reasons for this perspective have been stated in links previously posted in this thread to sites such as my blog and the work of Vallee. I think mass deception operations researched by individuals such as Carrion and Lundberg and Pilkington (Mirage Men) further justify suspending judgment. I do not think a final conclusion has yet been established.

All of that stated, lancemoody, your point is valid. The source is credible as recognized by the professional research community and I therefore appreciate your effort.

 

[trainedobserver]

I do think further research is justified that some crop formations may be related to military weapons testing and the perfecting of propaganda techniques.

While I would agree that there is reason to think that various military intelligence organizations of various countries and other groups have viewed Ufology (a large umbrella term in this case) as something else to be used and influenced for their own purposes. I will use my psychic abilities to predict that Lance does not.

Now, having said that. I have to ask "Why is further research justified?" The outside chance that some crop circles might be related to military testing of some sort seems a poor justification to search for further significance in the patterns or in the study of the physical properties of the bent crops themselves. It might be interesting to study the social phenomena surrounding crop circles as an extension of the contactee phenomena though, which I would imagine would be the target of any intelligence manipulation if any. Looking for exotic ways to bend crops down in a pattern in a field seems a colossal waste of time and not something I would imagine anyone spending real money trying to develop much less the military.

 

[mike]

As I revealed in my film, Lundberg is working for MI5. He was recruited by them in 1992 when he was at Slade art college, they also pay the rent on his London apartment. He has been paid since then to make the crop circles. This is a deliberate tack by the intelligence agency to divert attention away from unexplained circles and has been going on for at least 20 years.

http://www.richplanet.net/cropcircles.php

John Lundberg
We revealed in the television documentary “Crop Circles: The Hidden Truth” that Lundberg was probably recruited by MI5 in 1992. Since then he has been paid by British Intelligence continually. We believe that due to the anomalies about the property where he lives, MI5 have also been providing him with free lodgings in London since around 1995.
As many people know, Lundberg’s activities have been in making crop circles throughout the UK, and sometimes travel to foreign countries such as Italy, to trample down fields there too. We believe MI5 has funded these activities for almost 2 decades and have been giving him money to pay the rest of the crop circle team. There would typically be 5 or 6 in a team.
We believe MI5 made a big mistake in 2004 by paying for Lundberg to re-train as a film maker. This we believe was a gross miscalculation on their part and provides even more evidence that MI5 disinformation is what Lundberg is part of

http://www.richplanet.net/detail.php?dbindex=209

 

[mike]

These linked videos are stupidity personified: they make claims without bothering to support them in any way. Only a very dull person could be fooled by this crap. Additionally, they are the epitome of why amateur filmmakers are called amateurs.

Lance

And the same can be said of you Lance, your claims are also unsupported, Your "belief" that they are all man made is just an opinion, you have no proof that your opinion is correct.
You too make claims without being able to support them, so you fall back on insults and vitriol.

Its the typical response of your ilk, unable to discredit the data, you attempt to discredit the personalitys instead.
Its a poor argument, and indicative of someone who has nothing, but their own personal belief to back their opinion.

Attacking the personalitys instead of the data is telling........ Its a childish schoolyard response, and its not worth much as such

You post your opinion the data is "crap" but not one link, not one quote, not one scrap of data to support that claim, Just its all crap and anyone who doesnt agree with my opinion is dull/stupid.
Take that into a proper debate, and you'd be laughed off stage.
You need to provide compelling data and examples to support your premise, posting they are stupid crap and anyone who doesnt agree with me is dull, is worthless as a counter argument.

The label amateur, cuts both ways

An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without pay and often without formal training. Amateurism can be seen in both a negative and positive light.
On the other hand, an amateur may be in a position to approach a subject with an open mind (as a result of the lack of formal training) and in a financially disinterested manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amature

You didnt address a single data point from the videos, instead resorting to the sandpit tactic of "they all stinky poo poo" and anyone who thinks otherwise is stinky poo poo too......

Your opinion couched in sandpit level nomenclature, doesnt an absolute irrefutable fact make, on the contrary

Insults are the last refuge of those without a counter argument, your last post demonstrates this adage, most succinctly

 

[mike]

While using his compass in the Ridgeway crop formation, U.K., Dan noticed that the compass would no longer find true North. From the compass' point of view, North and South were only separated by ninety degrees which is impossible! This occurred while we were standing in the formation and Dan had been walking around quite a bit inside. The compass took about an hour to begin working properly again and functioned perfectly for the rest of the trip. It had never malfunctioned like this before.

Anomalous effects

There are numerous reports of electronic and mechanical equipment breaking down in crop circles. Cameras frequently malfunction, and even when they do work, the results may be overexposed, streaked, smeared, or entirely black. Video equipment is also very vulnerable, and often picks up severe interference. Battery draining is quite common, and even fresh power packs can die. Cell phones often fail to operate within a formation but sometimes work perfectly again if taken outside it.

A combine harvester short-circuited as it crossed the Milk Hill Koch fractal (fig. 3.12). At Warminster, a tractor’s entire electrical system failed the moment it crossed a circle’s perimeter, but sprang back to life as it was towed out of the circle. In another incident, a tractor was seized by ‘static discharges which shone like sparks over the body of the vehicle’. The next day, a circle appeared at the same spot in the field. Farmers have also reported the deflating of perfectly sound, heavy-duty tyres inside crop circles.

The morning after the appearance of the ‘Beltane wheel’ (fig. 9.2), the BBC was conducting a radio interview inside the glyph but the tape speeded up so much that it stopped. When the interview was continued 50 yards outside the formation, the equipment worked normally again. The experiment was then repeated inside the formation, but the technical problems returned. Later in the day a crew from ITV Bristol Television arrived, but their sound system later turned out to have been so disrupted that most of the recording was unable to be broadcast that evening.

Magnetic compasses frequently behave erratically both inside crop formations and when flying directly over them. Witnesses sometimes report TV, cell phone, smoke alarm and security device interference or malfunctions during nights when a crop circle forms nearby. The night before the appearance of the 1991 Barbury Castle tetrahedron (fig. 3.6), residents in the nearby village of Broughton experienced a power blackout and many residents reported balls of coloured light flying above the field where the formation later manifested, along with a low rumbling noise.

Watches and clocks may run fast or slow in crop circles. Some writers see this as evidence that ‘time itself’ has slowed down or speeded up, and have linked crop circles to ‘time warps’ and ‘space warps’!

Certain photographic distortions have been attributed to the same alleged causes. It’s quite conceivable that anomalous energies and atmospheric conditions can affect the behavior of watches, clocks, cameras and also light. But warped notions such as ‘bent’ space and time are simply mathematical abstractions and explain nothing. There is also a case of a pendulum being pulled 15 to 20 degrees off the vertical in the centre of a crop formation by some unknown force.

The effects of crop circles on humans vary widely. Many people experience heightened awareness, elation, and a sense of peace and wellbeing inside crop formations, and there are also many reports of healing. But in certain formations some people experience nausea, headaches, dizziness, disorientation, abnormal menopausal bleeding, lack of mental clarity, and excessive fatigue. However, both positive and negative effects have also been experienced in man-made formations. Distinguishing subjective, psychosomatic factors from possible objective factors (ranging from pesticide residues to unusual energies) is no easy matter.

Unlike humans, animals are not very susceptible to suggestion, but there are many accounts of them behaving strangely in or near crop formations. Dogs sometimes refuse to enter crop circles, others become either cowed and nervous or uncontrollable inside them, and some become sick afterwards. Other dogs show no adverse effects at all. Before the manifestation of a nearby crop circle, dogs have been known to bark incessantly in the early morning hours, and in one case a sheepdog tried to bite a hole through a thick wooden door.

Sheep sometimes try and move as far away as possible from a field where a crop formation later appears. Horses may refuse to cross the perimeter of crop circles, or become nervous in their vicinity. Flocks of geese have been observed to break formation directly over crop circles, and deer have been seen avoiding crop circles blocking game trails.

Birds, too, tend to stay away from genuine crop circles, even though the downed plants offer easy access to seeds.

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

Is your response really gonna be, "Well, you are just as bad"?

Well if the shoe fits.................

But its simple enough to resolve.

You state your opinion as absolute fact that all crop circles are man made...............

Wheres the proof ?

Can you prove all crop circles are man made , with evidence to a beyond a shadow of a doubt standard ?

 

[trainedobserver]

Mike, you should watch the Matthew Williams videos. He specifically addresses the richplanet videos in a couple of them. If I'm not mistaken the formation you brought up is also addressed specifically. I couldn't recommend his videos more.

 

[mike]

Its funny how you dodge the hard questions, like how does the shredded wheat CC take according to the makers 14 hours back breaking work, while the stonehenge julia set shows up in 40-50 mins or less.

or

Wheres the proof all crop circles are man made as you assert as a statement of absolute fact.

 

[trainedobserver]

Its funny how you dodge the hard questions, like how does the shredded wheat CC take according to the makers 14 hours back breaking work, while the stonehenge julia set shows up in 40-50 mins or less. or Wheres the proof all crop circles are man made as you assert as a statement of absolute fact.

I'm not dodging anything Mike. If you watch Matthew Williams videos and listen to his crop circles tv show, you'll get clued in pretty quickly. Also, if you'll search here in the forum for "crop circles" and my handle you'll see where I've posted several of those videos addressing various things about CC.

This is a good starting point.

Here are some more.


I certainly do believe that Complex Crop Circles are man-made. Why? Because I have not seen any evidence that convinces me otherwise. In fact, the evidence overwhelmingly points to human beings. Human beings who can write concertos, paint photorealistic paintings, and send objects to distant planets can most certainly create geometric patterns and pictographs in a field of crops. The claims about miraculous sudden appearances can be explained without the need for calling on the paranormal.

 

[trainedobserver]

Explanation of July 7, 1996 Julia Set crop circle at Stonehenge

http://www.circlemakers.org/la.html

Excerpt from above referenced article:

I pointed out that the Stonehenge Julia Set had evidently appeared in broad daylight, in a span of perhaps 45 minutes.

RD: "That isn't true," Rod insisted. "It was made the previous night, by three people, in about two and three-quarters hours, starting around 2:45 am (on Sunday morning, July 7). It was there all that day. When that doctor flew over, he just didn't see it the first time. That happens a lot. His report was wrong. He just didn't see it."

ML: "You mean, it sat there next to that highway all day, and no one saw it? Are you kidding?"

RD: "If you went there, you'd see how the field slopes down and away from the road. The formation was in a kind of bowl, below the level of the road. Going by in a car, you couldn't see it. You would have to get out and walk toward it and look down into that bowl-shaped area to see it."

ML: "But there is a lot of air traffic in that area. Planes must have flown over it many times that day."

RD: "Sure, but lots of them just didn't see it, and the rest didn't think to report it, until that doctor reported it in the evening. I know this can happen, because I've made quite a few big formations and then waited for a day, even several days, before they're discovered."

ML: "OK, so you say that the Stonehenge Julia Set was created in less than three hours, in pitch darkness, by three people, and you know who they are...

RD: "Yes"

ML: "Can you tell me how this was done? This wasn't a free-hand glyph. They must have had a diagram or something..."

RD: "Yes, they had a diagram."

ML: "It has a very precise geometry, following a Fibonacci series..."

RD: "Well, for the first three-quarters of its arc, it does follow a Fibonacci series,* but the last quarter doesn't. It just becomes a circular arc."

That stopped me for a moment, because it was such a precise bit of information, so confidently delivered. Sensing my interest, he asked for a piece of paper from my note pad and drew a rough sketch.

---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

Wheres the proof all crop circles are man made as you assert as a statement of absolute fact.

I don't have to prove that all crop circles are man made. I just have to prove to myself that human beings can and do make crop circles and that the crop circle I'm viewing at the moment is man-made. Which is easy enough to do.

Once you dispel the unreasonable arguments that crop circle researchers want to put forth you are left with the obvious answer. Human beings make crop circles.

Some of these unreasonable arguments are:
1. They are not too complex for human beings to make.
2. They require something other than simple tools to make.
3. Crop Circles of unknown origin display attributes not found in known human made ones.

Each of these core arguments have been demonstrated to be false in the videos I have referenced.

 

[mike]

Heres my problem with the MMCC aspect, If it is deliberate disinfo, if it is designed to drown signal with noise, then it has the advantage of being able to say "i made that one last night"
We have one person claiming we made it last night, and four other witness's saying it wasnt there that morning.
The doctor taking photos, the pilot of the plane, the security guard and the gamekeeper..............

Ultimatly claiming "i made it" doesnt prove anything.

heres a classic example

This person "claims" they made this the largest crop cirle ever (at that time), but the video is all claim, and no proof.

You could apply the same tactic to a hypothetically "genuine" one too.

It would be like me putting up a vid with the mona lisa in it, cutting to a few shots of me mixing some paints, then claiming i painted the masterpeice..........................

In addition the MMCC scenario doesnt reconcile the high strangeness aspects reported like equipment maulfunction inside a formation which resolves outside the formation, and then starts again when taken back in.

One of the most interesting circles to appear in recent years appeared during early August this year at Milk Hill, Alton Barnes, Wiltshire that has been named 'The Galaxy'. This particular circle comprised of more than 400 circles, perfectly aligned in a psychedelic swirl. The whole formation measured a mammoth 1500 feet across with the circles ranging in size from a few feet in diameter to more than 70 feet across! John Lundberg, who is a self-confessed crop circle hoaxer, said 'If this formation was man-made, allowing for time to get into and out of the field under cover of darkness, the construction time should be around four hours.'

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+0]'Given that there are 400 circles, some of which span 70ft, that would mean that one of these circles would need to be created every 30 seconds and that's not even allowing time for the surveying, purely for flattening. This formation pushes the envelope, and that's a massive understatement.'[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+0]Karen Douglas, 31, who is a crop circle expert from Gosport, Hampshire, added: 'This is very, very exciting. Even the people who usually debunk the formations think this one is incredible. It is the sheer size and complexity that sets it apart. There have been big formations before but never as many circles. People are really astounded by it.'[/SIZE][/FONT]

Notice that lundberg says "if" this formation was man made...........................
Doesnt that strike you as a strange thing to say ?

And their own site has a section for high strangness

http://circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html

For me at least these "weird" factors mean the phenomena remains a mystery in my book, its not in my mind fully resolved with an all man made answer

 

[jjflash]

An interesting discussion, including info about previously referenced crop circle artist and Mirage Men co-author John Lundgren, is unfolding at:

http://www.realityuncovered.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2078

 

[mike]

I don't have to prove that all crop circles are man made. I just have to prove to myself that human beings can and do make crop circles and that the crop circle I'm viewing at the moment is man-made. Which is easy enough to do.

Once you dispel the unreasonable arguments that crop circle researchers want to put forth you are left with the obvious answer. Human beings make crop circles.

Actually you do if the claim is all circles are manmade

it would be akin to saying

I don't have to prove that all men are rapists. I just have to prove to myself that men can and do commit rape

To prove all men are rapists.

That we know for a fact that some CC's are MM, is not in of itself proof ALL CC's are MM
Anymore than the fact some men are rapists is proof all men are rapists.

 

[trainedobserver]

I said that I was convinced that all complex crop circles are man-made.

It is entirely possible for some other intelligent being to make them if such a thing were to exist. Is it probable? I don't think so.

What I am saying Mike, is that I have reviewed the entirely of the evidence (that I could get my hands on) over a period of years and arrived at the conclusion that all complex crop circles are man-made. The likelihood that something else is responsible is so remote and so improbable that I do not find it interesting in the slightest.

I think crop circle research is a dead-end. You are of course free to think otherwise. Good luck.

 

[trainedobserver]

Matthew Williams excellent show provides insight into the real corp circle makers and weird things that happen around them. Fascinating stuff!

 

[boomerang]

I said that I was convinced that all complex crop circles are man-made.

What puzzles me about complex crop circles is the very involved choreography, in terms of coordinated movements, that would be necessary to make them. Let's say you are a dedicated hoaxer/artist with a design in your head, or even on paper ready to present to the world. Consider the relatively precise series of movements that must be executed by a team, in the dark, without mistakes, and presumably without a full scale "rehearsal". Human ingenuity is boundless, so I would never say never. But thinking about the nuts and bolts of doing this makes for some head scratching.

 

[trainedobserver]

Consider the relatively precise series of movements that must be executed by a team, in the dark, without mistakes, and presumably without a full scale "rehearsal". Human ingenuity is boundless, so I would never say never. But thinking about the nuts and bolts of doing this makes for some head scratching.

That is part of the myth as well you see. Mistakes are made. The crop circle formations are not perfect. The good ones that get all the researcher attention are made by experienced teams for the most part. Also, you must realize that regardless of how this gets trumped up by researchers, Crop Circles are not rocket science.

Matthew Williams has recently posted a series of interviews with real crop circle makers on his youTube channel. Anyone with even a passing interest in crop circles should watch them. Also, if you have not watched his 3 hour documentary on his channel you should. I cannot recommend it enough. In the recent videos crop circle formations are discussed and several of them recount the mistakes made in fields and how the pattern was simply adjusted to incorporate them. Other fascinating insights into the whole maker/researcher conflict are also offered up.

 

[trainedobserver]

Andrew Pyrka's website Cropcircle Wisdom. He is of the "Crop Circles are made by people but weird things happen in and around them" camp.

An interview with Andrew Pyrka

Invisible UFO filmed in crop circle at Barbury Castle formation.