Are Crop Circles all Bunk??

[HotSoup]

Whether or not the crop circles are made by entities other than human, the question rises, with so many mathmeticians on this planet, when is that crop circle language going to be deciphered...Its strange in and of itself that people haven't really sat down and tried to add them up.

 

[trainedobserver]

Whether or not the crop circles are made by entities other than human, the question rises, with so many mathmeticians on this planet, when is that crop circle language going to be deciphered...Its strange in and of itself that people haven't really sat down and tried to add them up.

The NSA exists for that sort of thing. If these things were messages from somewhere else I think we can be fairly certain that they deciphered them already. However, if its essentially yard-art created by several different graffiti artists or groups of artists over the years, (which is the case I'm afraid) then its all a gigantic waste of time. I'd also say that its a gigantic waste of time if they really are messages from somewhere else since whoever is sending them seems incapable of making themselves clearly understood. It all falls into the absurdity of all contactee messages, which is essentially what crop-circles are alleged to be, messages. If a superior intelligence from elsewhere is trying to send messages by destroying food crops they don't seem all that superior to me in either the method or content of their messages.

 

[HotSoup]

we could also take into account that only people intelligent enough are meant to decipher them.

 

[mike]

They may not contain much of a message either, any more than a graffiti "tag" contains much more than a "I/we were here" message

 

[jjflash]

I have some doubts about whether or not they (crop circles) are all matters of recreation and art, though, as I suspect some may be related to covert military activity, but nonetheless man made.

What do you see as evidence for that and what do you suppose the motivation for their involvement might be?

http://ufotrail.blogspot.com/2011/04/crop-circles-part-three.html

http://ufotrail.blogspot.com/

I think situations such as described in the above referenced posts justify further research into the likelihood of military involvement in what has become known as the crop circle phenomenon.

 

[trainedobserver]

I think situations such as described in the above referenced posts justify further research into the likelihood of military involvement in what has become known as the crop circle phenomenon.

I really don't. Levengood and Greer's work amounts to nothing but pseudoscience upon close inspection. The military certainly has other things to do rather than concern themselves over what amounts to yard-art.

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena and have little to do with reality outside of the closed community creating and promoting (under the thin veil of research) the trampled crop patterns as something otherworldly. The crop circle makers are the gods, the crop circles are their mystical communication, the researchers are the priests, and the believers are the typical seekers found in any religious or spiritual pursuit. The geometric patterns in the crops are interpreted to have consciousness raising cosmic meaning like every other sacred text studied by seekers throughout human history.

 

[mike]

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena and have little to do with reality outside of the closed community creating and promoting (under the thin veil of research) the trampled crop patterns as something otherworldly. The crop circle makers are the gods, the crop circles are their mystical communication, the researchers are the priests, and the believers are the typical seekers found in any religious or spiritual pursuit. The geometric patterns in the crops are interpreted to have consciousness raising cosmic meaning like every other sacred text studied by seekers throughout human history.

By that logic, if i can call it that, the same could be said for Santa Claus.

I don't men for that to sound overly critical of you TO, and while i concede there are some who ascribe a mystical attribute to the phenomena, the CC's themselves cant imo be described as religious phenomena.
It would depend on what they actually are, If they are simply works of art, created by people with boards and rollers, then thats all they are , art. they would then be an artistic phenomena, not a religious one.

Santa is a good cross example, A mystical being with magic powers (he knows whos naughty, and he knows whos nice)
The rituals associated with setting up the shrine, complete with idols like reindeer on the lawn and ritual decorations.
The offering or sacrifice of milk and cookies
But at the end of the day Santa is more a cultural phenomena than a religious one, yet in terms of the cultural uptake of the meme, and its associated trappings, its far closer to a religious phenomena than the CC's are.

 

[trainedobserver]

By that logic, if i can call it that, the same could be said for Santa Claus.

In a manner of speaking it is.

I don't men for that to sound overly critical of you TO, and while i concede there are some who ascribe a mystical attribute to the phenomena, the CC's themselves cant imo be described as religious phenomena.

My reference to it as a religion has nothing to do with any alleged or assumed paranormal/mystical components. In fact it really has nothing to do with the crop circles themselves so much as the belief system that has sprung up in response to them.

It would depend on what they actually are, If they are simply works of art, created by people with boards and rollers, then thats all they are , art. they would then be an artistic phenomena, not a religious one.

I am convinced that they are human created works of art and nothing more. The fact that a folk religion has sprung up around them really doesn't have anything to do that, in fact it is in total denial of it.

Santa is a good cross example...

I agree. Santa Claus can be viewed as a religious belief/practice. The crop circle community has conformed to a form of religiosity. The unkind word for it is cultism.

 

[mike]

In fact it really has nothing to do with the crop circles themselves so much as the belief system that has sprung up in response to them.

I agree but thats not what you initially said.

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena

The belief systems of some people (not all) associated with the CC's might be a religious phenomena, but the CC's themselves are not.

That elements of the crop circle community behave in this manner, doesnt mean we can tar the whole of the comunnity with the same brush as per this statement

The crop circle community has conformed to a form of religiosity

Its akin to saying everyone interested in UFO's is a heavens gate cultie...............

 

[mike]

You've missed my point Lance

Crop circles are not in of themselves a religious phenomena.

Not everyone ascribes a paranormal explanation to them.

What we are left with then is a small set of people who might behave in a manner that could be construed as religious.

To tar everyone with an interest in CC's with this brush, is the same as saying every UFO researcher subscribes to Marshall Herff Applewhite's take on UFO's.

Some people think they are simply man made crop art, given this fact, to ascribe sweeping generalities to the whole subject is ridiculous

Nor do i think that terms like "priest" apply to those who have made a study of them, anymore than you could apply the term priest to a scientist or doctor who has made a study of their own speciality of interest.

As an example someone who has studied CC's and concluded they are all man made could not be defined as a priest

You're attempting to take a minority mindset, and apply it as a sweeping generalisation to discredit the subject, imo its not intellectually honest to do so, anymore than it would be to claim all UFO researchers are heavens gate culties

 

[mike]

Perhaps you should have read the thread, and the context of what i posted Lance
I was replying to trained's statement

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena

The circles themselves are not a religious phenomena, if some people choose treat them as such, thats a reflection on those people, not the circles themselves.

and again generalisations like

The crop circle community has conformed to a form of religiosity.

Are blanket generalisations, and therefore false, there is an entire crop circle community that makes and takes credit for some circles, to them its art and a bit of a lark, not a form of religiosity.

You may think its pedantic of me to point this out, but as far as i'm concerned, correcting false data is less of an issue than stating it

Clear ?

The fact is you dont know for a fact that they are all manmade, anymore than someone knows for a fact some are created by Et's or whatever, your "belief" your opinion is just that, its not an absolute fact.
As such you could be accused of the same religiosity, since you only have "belief" they are all manmade.

Insisting as fact what they are not, is no different to insisting what they are.
Without proof of either scenario it all boils down to personal belief, does this make you a "priest" of scepticism ?

Preaching to all and sundry your assertion of what it is or isnt, based on no more than your belief ?

What makes your "belief" any more or less right or factual than anyone elses ?

 

[mike]

Of course I read the thread. Did you really think Trained was saying that Crop Circles themselves were a religious phenomena?

Well either you didnt read the thread or you are being deliberately obtuse, because thats exactly what he said, word for word.

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena

i am glad you found the manner in which i cleared this up "useful"

performed or rendered in a loyal, valiant, useful, or workmanlike manner, especially in situations that involve a great deal of effort or labor: He did a yeoman job on the problem.

 

[mike]

No, he used those examples to back his initial and very clear claim the Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena.

And indeed the criteria he cites is just as absurd, that the (human ?) makers of the circles are gods.......
that researchers are priests......

Thats just as silly as the claim the Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena.

9/11 was the date of the terrorist attack on the US............ Sept 11.

And jesus wont save you, he couldnt even save himself lol
Why you would invoke him at this point is beyond me, still trying to reduce this to a religious phenomena i guess

 

[mike]

I thought it was an apt summation of crop circles and the morons who believe that they are something beyond manmade. But I can see how the idea might sail right over certain kinds of heads. There's no shame in that. If you are limited, you're limited.

Party On.

Lance

It may have been an apt summation of some of the people involved in CC's, but not of the CC's themselves.
That was my point, and i can see its sailed over your head.
Never mind, as you say no shame in that, an honest mistake


But as i said earlier your "belief" without proof that some CC's are not made by ET's is no different from that of those who believe some are made by ET's.
As such it your stance is just as religious, as theirs.
And based on your own criteria just as nutty...................

You can no more prove they are all man made, than they can that some are made by ET's , your "faith" in your opinion is no different than their faith in theirs.
Your both "believers", from my perspective comparing you to the croppies is like comparing an anglican to a catholic priest.
Those who "religiously" cling to the fervent and zealous belief some are created by ET's, are no different to you clinging to your fervent and zealous belief that they are all man made. neither side can prove their case.
You're a crop circle nut too, in that you have a strong belief without proof of an absolute fact.................

Its like comparing a christian with a satanist, they are just opposite sides of the same coin. a satanist is a christian, a christian is a satanist.
The satanist believes in the existance of god and christ, but choses satan as his focus of worship, a christian believes in the existance of satan but his focus is on JC. they both are from the exact same theological framework, just opposite poles.
Neither satanist or christian is a hindu or a taoist or hare krishna......

You are a crop circle "believer" you firmly believe that they are all man made, but you have no more proof of that than do the other "nuts" as you put it, who "believe" like you do, only with an opposite focus.

As such you cross the line from being an open minded sceptic, to a zealous debunker...........

I on the other hand, "dont know" what the answer is, i wont make the mistake of insisting as absolute fact (as you do) what it is, or what it isnt.

Oh i see youve gone back and removed your thanks, and edited the word "troll" into your posts LMFAO
When Don wanted to bounce you i argued your input though contrary was still valid, but now you try and intimate my input is invalid by use of the word troll........ you are a very small man Lance i suspect in more ways than one

 

[jimp]

In short, yes I believe they are bunk.

I have heard that the people who made them have confessed. They have shown how they can make the most elaborate and complex circles.

But the people who "want to believe" are still trying to get around the confession of hoax. They say that maybe the human makers of these crop circles were actually guided by aliens or otherworldly beings. So now the hoaxers must be saying to themselves: "We tried to confess but people still want to believe -- so what the heck, let's go along with it."

Then there is the Roswell effect: this is where new researchers go back to old cases and research them as if no one else has ever done so. They completely ignore the previous evidence that has been impeached and witnesses who have been discredited. This happens over and over again with famous cases.

 

[mike]

Wow, that's the first time I have heard this argument.

Today.

The burden of proving a negative is one of the most pitiful and common of logical fallacies by poor thinkers everywhere.

I know this is pearls before swine, but let me submit:

I don't believe in the Easter Bunny.
I don't have proof there is not one (because one cannot prove a negative).
Therefore, using your hilariously dumb logic, I am just as much believer as any 8 year kid.

The reason I don't believe that Crop Circles are paranormal is because the evidence for this idea (which I am quite familiar with) is lacking. When the evidence is lacking, I don't hitch a ride on that nut wagon.

Again, I am well aware that this is likely beyond your ability to understand. But don't feel bad. Many, many ill-eqippped little believers make the same mistake.

And like you, they still come away SURE that they have a made a really clever gold star point.

Proving a negative... maybe look it up?

Lance

Crop circles are real, the easter bunny is not.................

Thats not the debate though the debate is what makes these "real" circles

The Man made Hypothesis, has flaws. there are still aspects that remain unexplained even in the MMH.
The speed at which some are allegedly put down.

this simple MM CC took "14 hours of back breaking work"

http://circlemakers.org/shredded_wheat.html

Yet julia sets much larger and far more complex have appeared overnight.......

There is also this from the circlemakers site

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL][FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]Whilst making what was at the time the most ambitious crop circle ever attempted Julian Richardson and his team were witness to a strange orange ball of light. [/FONT]<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->
[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]John Lundberg recalls several anomalies he and others witnessed whilst out making circles in Wiltshire.[/FONT]

[/FONT]<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL][FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]Rod Dickinson describes how he inadvertently photographed a small white disk in 1991. The negatives were subsequently analysed by Ufologist Andy Collins. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]http://circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]The photographs on this page were taken on April 26th 1996 by Rod Dickinson at Chibolton Observatory, the following account describes the conditions under which they were taken. This is the first time these photographs have been in a public forum: [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]

[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]I took this sequence of photographs on April 26 1996 at about 9.20pm over the Chibolton Observatory, Chibolton, Hampshire, England. [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]After a prearranged meeting with a friend close to the observatory we witnessed a luminous orb consisting

of six smaller red lights arranged around a yellow/orange light, which appeared in the sky above and to the southwest of the observatory. It was twilight and the weather was fine with a clear sky and light wind. [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]The light moved slowly towards us passing above the dish of the observatory, it then banked and began to move North, allowing a clear view of the configuration of lights underneath it. It did not make any sort of sound. After a short distance it disappeared, as if the lights had been turned off. The whole sighting lasted a few minutes, as I had my camera with me I took a number of photographs in quick succession as the lights banked and moved North. [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]The photographs were taken on a 35mm SLR camera, using standard 100 ASA slide film. The exposure was at 1/60 of a second for all the photographs. [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]There have been several other sightings at Chibolton observatory in recent years. [/FONT]

http://circlemakers.org/chibolt.html

Even those who make circles describe what they call "weird shit" happening.....................

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]Then there is this grizzly aspect[/FONT]
[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]"Dead wild animals are rarely found in crop formations, but there have been a few exceptions. Some birds had apparently been caught up in the creation of a 1993 formation, and had been blown apart and disintegrated by the force. Mixed in with the blood and feathers were minute bits of flesh, but there were no bones, or any distinguishable or recognizable parts. Laboratory tests on some of the remains confirmed that they belonged to an ‘exploded bird’.[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]Two dead porcupines were found in two different Canadian crop circles. One had almost disintegrated into blackened parts and the other had been squashed like a pancake. Scrape marks and a row of standing broken quills indicated that the latter porcupine had been dragged to the centre of the formation from the perimeter. The flow of flattened quills on its body went in the same direction as the lay of the fallen crop. Analysis of the other porcupine showed that the blackness of the remains was not due to burning. Most animals probably sense something is about to happen and run away, but porcupines respond to danger by simply raising their spines and sitting tight." [/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]The MMH doesnt explain this stuff.[/FONT]

[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]But again im absolutely certain CC's are real, and pretty sure the easter bunny is not.[/FONT]
[FONT=GENEVA, VERDANA, HELVETICA, ARIAL]Whats being debated here is the cause behind this very real phenomena, my observations therefore stand[/FONT]
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

[trainedobserver]

I agree but thats not what you initially said.

I think you are misunderstanding me when I said:

Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena and have little to do with reality outside of the closed community creating and promoting (under the thin veil of research) the trampled crop patterns as something otherworldly.

I was unclear. When I said "Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena" I was guilty of using the term Crop Circles to include the entirely of the phenomena which includes the crop circle researchers, the makers, the believer, and the crop patterns themselves. My bad.

The belief systems of some people (not all) associated with the CC's might be a religious phenomena, but the CC's themselves are not.

Exactly. The Crop Circles themselves are just plants trampled in patterns.

That elements of the crop circle community behave in this manner, doesnt mean we can tar the whole of the comunnity with the same brush as per this statement

Driving in this morning I mulled over this topic and I realized I was really not communicating very well. It was never my intention to say that people who are interested in Crop Circles for whatever reason, consciously or unconsciously, belong to some sort of formal religion or cult. While some can reasonably argue that elements of it and the UFO community have cult-like characteristics, that really wasn't the point I was trying to make.

What I am trying to point out is that you can look at the Crop Circle phenomena as a whole. This includes:
1. The human makers and their beliefs.
2. The crop circles.
3. The enthusiasts and their beliefs.
4. The researchers and their beliefs.

My suggestion is that the development of the modern Crop Circle phenomena parallels the development of religion and religious belief. It isn't a stretch to interpret it as a new type of religious expression. The pattern is simply this:
1. Extraordinary event interpreted as supernatural or part of the great mystery of life.
2. People form beliefs surrounding it. - believers.
3. Experts emerge. - priests.
4. The belief system is perpetuated and added to by the priests.

It's an oversimplification but that is the thrust of one way I've come to think of this thing. It doesn't mean that anyone is actually thinking of it that way or even consciously behaving in a religious manner.

---------- Post added at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------

The ones who keep the silly paranormal idea alive for circles are the ones I am speaking of. And in that sense the whole thing is much like religion, with beliefs that are scientifically unsupported but still held as some holy truth to believed through faith. And it is this group (whom you describe as small without evidence) that keeps circles alive as a paranormal belief.

Exactly. The refusal of that group to acknowledge reasonable explanations including the confessions of the makers while employing elements of pseudo-science and superstition in alternative explanations for the crop circles origins undeniably parallels religious belief and conforms to a template.

Now, I found Crop Circles interesting enough to wonder what was really going on with them and to find out. I don't think that made me a cultist. What I found out was that they are nothing but an incredible distraction, a destruction of private property, and a joke. The modern era originated with a practical joke by a couple of artists. It has been perpetuated by artists, practical jokers, and the deluded and mistaken.

I've been amazed at the number of people who should have seen through Crop Circles by now but haven't. When people like Dolan and Vallee say something alluding to there being some mystery surrounding them I just shake my head. Surely, they would know better if they just looked at "the mystery" a little closer.

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

The fact is you dont know for a fact that they are all manmade, anymore than someone knows for a fact some are created by Et's or whatever, your "belief" your opinion is just that, its not an absolute fact. As such you could be accused of the same religiosity, since you only have "belief" they are all manmade.

I am willing to change my mind given the evidence. If you have a Crop Circle that you think is not man-made I would be glad to take a look at it. Do you have an example?

 

[jjflash]

Hi, all -

Regarding the crop circle debate, I empathize with the skeptics in that critical thinking is the way to truth. I empathize with those who lean toward open-mindedness in that they are not willing to be told by anonymous posters on Internet forums what they should believe. I invite consideration that healthy balance might be most beneficial, as well as supportive of productive discussion.

Perhaps it would be helpful to initially agree on a definition of admissable evidence. I suggest we adhere to standards established and recognized by the professional research community.

I submit the following information to establish that select crop formations consist of unusual energy deposits and plant abnormalities on a cellular level:

http://www.iccra.org/levengood/ccpub.htm

The above referenced papers were published in scientific journals and should therefore be properly debunked in order to be voided. Counterpoints such as other professional research papers published in similar trade journals would be reasonable rebuttals, but simply refusing to recognize the reports as evidence until proven otherwise neither adheres to professional research practices nor critical thinking.

I strongly urge consideration that both the debunkers and believers may be right and wrong to certain extents when it comes to crop formations. There are more possibilities, arguably even more likely possibilities, than are allowed by flawed 'either/or' thinking that must conclude that either all crop circles are hoaxes or aliens are among us. I defer to a quote from Martin Cannon, "The myth of the UFO has provided an effective cover story for an entirely different sort of mystery. Remove yourself from the Believer/Skeptic dialectic, and you will see the third alternative."

 

[tyder001]

I was unclear. When I said "Crop Circles are actually a religious phenomena" I was guilty of using the term Crop Circles to include the entirely of the phenomena which includes the crop circle researchers, the makers, the believer, and the crop patterns themselves. My bad.

You were not unclear. You simply are arguing with a zealot.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

Hi jjflash. Although I personally don't think crop circles are alien in origin I appreciate the links you have provided and I am going to read through them before I comment.

 

[jjflash]

Hi, tyder001 -

[/COLOR]...I personally don't think crop circles are alien in origin...

Neither do I.