April 8, 2018 — Rev. Dr. Barry Downing with Don Ecker

[B.Bell]

I'm not atheist and well learned in religion and esoteric knowledge and understanding, I can say this without doubt, whatever the atheists that you speak of think, the bible is no real authority and never was...

My original point (and post) was not about the Bible’s authority, but that the majority of ufologists claiming that the Bible contains evidence of extraterrestrial visitation need to understand that it doesn’t.

So if the Bible is worthless to you and others, and carry’s no authority or legitimacy, then why do ufologists claim the Bible is authoritative and evidence of alien visitation? Can’t have it both ways.

People who believe the Bible is junk but claim it’s evidence to support their personal belief in aliens must look in the mirror and recognize their hypocracy. That may or may not be you.

 

[B.Bell]

"By equal token, by what authority do you claim it couldn’t be?"

Complete the sentence: "..do you claim it couldn't be [WHAT??]" A person inventing or defending the imaginary entity (i.e. God, Cosmic Authority) has the burden of proof.

So far authorities presented are (1) yourself, (2) your interpretation of ancient scriptures and (3) other "experts”.

So let’s apply your thinking model to other situations to see if it can actually stand on its own.

Evidence of Authority = authorities presented (1) yourself, (2) your interpretation (3) other "experts"

Michael do you believe in extraterrestrial visitation?

I don’t know, but many people do. They base their belief on three things:

1. Their personal UFO experiences.
2. The interpretation of their personal UFO experiences opposite other people’s similar UFO experiences.
3. The opinions of ufologists who claim expertise in UFOs.

What do we get? People who claim that alien visitation is real, it’s happening, and that any skeptical claim otherwise is foolish, illegitimate, and nothing but denying the actual (hidden) truth.

And yet, this is the very same formula you claim makes the Bible “un-authoritative”.

Wouldn’t that approach equally nullify belief in extraterrestrial visitation? And yet it doesn’t.

Also, I would amend your interpretation of my authority as follows:

1. Myself,
2. The interpretation of ancient texts by experts,
3. Additional experts who back the interpretation based on their own independent findings

 

[Michael Allen]

So let’s apply your thinking model to other situations to see if it can actually stand on its own.

Evidence of Authority = authorities presented (1) yourself, (2) your interpretation (3) other "experts"

Michael do you believe in extraterrestrial visitation?

I don’t know, but many people do. They base their belief on three things:

1. Their personal UFO experiences.
2. The interpretation of their personal UFO experiences opposite other people’s similar UFO experiences.
3. The opinions of ufologists who claim expertise in UFOs.

What do we get? People who claim that alien visitation is real, it’s happening, and that any skeptical claim otherwise is foolish, illegitimate, and nothing but denying the actual (hidden) truth.

And yet, this is the very same formula you claim makes the Bible “un-authoritative”.

Wouldn’t that approach equally nullify belief in extraterrestrial visitation? And yet it doesn’t.

Also, I would amend your interpretation of my authority as follows:

1. Myself,
2. The interpretation of ancient texts by experts,
3. Additional experts who back the interpretation based on their own independent findings

Sure...ETH is a belief. Agreed. Now are you saying that these two systems are equivalent (ETH and Biblical beliefs) ?

Edit: Touche btw...

 

[Michael Allen]

So let’s apply your thinking model to other situations to see if it can actually stand on its own.

Evidence of Authority = authorities presented (1) yourself, (2) your interpretation (3) other "experts"

Michael do you believe in extraterrestrial visitation?

I don’t know, but many people do. They base their belief on three things:

1. Their personal UFO experiences.
2. The interpretation of their personal UFO experiences opposite other people’s similar UFO experiences.
3. The opinions of ufologists who claim expertise in UFOs.

What do we get? People who claim that alien visitation is real, it’s happening, and that any skeptical claim otherwise is foolish, illegitimate, and nothing but denying the actual (hidden) truth.

And yet, this is the very same formula you claim makes the Bible “un-authoritative”.

Wouldn’t that approach equally nullify belief in extraterrestrial visitation? And yet it doesn’t.

Also, I would amend your interpretation of my authority as follows:

1. Myself,
2. The interpretation of ancient texts by experts,
3. Additional experts who back the interpretation based on their own independent findings

I don't believe in ETH...but I think it may be a possibility.

Edit: I think ETH is likely true, but I don't "believe" in it...in other words I don't base my decisions in the world on the idea that it might be true (my definition of belief).

 

[Michael Allen]

My original point (and post) was not about the Bible’s authority, but that the majority of ufologists claiming that the Bible contains evidence of extraterrestrial visitation need to understand that it doesn’t.

So if the Bible is worthless to you and others, and carry’s no authority or legitimacy, then why do ufologists claim the Bible is authoritative and evidence of alien visitation? Can’t have it both ways.

People who believe the Bible is junk but claim it’s evidence to support their personal belief in aliens must look in the mirror and recognize their hypocracy. That may or may not be you.

This is a really good argument. Except that ufologists may simply cherry pick passages and interpret them according to their own assumptions ....

Wait...what if orthodox religious people are doing exactly the same thing.

 

[B.Bell]

Sure...ETH is a belief. Agreed. Now are you saying that these two systems are equivalent (ETH and Biblical beliefs) ?

Edit: Touche btw...

At first glance it would seem they are the same, right? But not really.

For one, if you’ve used this approach to conclude in your own mind that the ETH explains UFOs, then you would also have to say the very same method could (should?) conclude that the God of the Bible is actually real.

But you don’t - so that means something else is preventing you from believing it.

Secondly, unlike ETH, we have written and anthropological evidence that what occurred in the Bible is in fact historically accurate.

That evidence supports any conclusions (including beliefs) that come from the formula you provided.

Of course, we do have historians and archeologists who claim that while the events of the Bible are true, none of the “supernatural” events are. They reject those elements entirely.

And yet you believe in the ETH without any evidence equal to that supporting the Bible, AND you accept the “paranormal” or supernatural elements as well.

 

[B.Bell]

I don't believe in ETH...but I think it may be a possibility.

Edit: I think ETH is likely true, but I don't "believe" in it...in other words I don't base my decisions in the world on the idea that it might be true (my definition of belief).

But is your mind also open to other possibilities, prosaic or otherwise?

 

[B.Bell]

This is a really good argument. Except that ufologists may simply cherry pick passages and interpret them according to their own assumptions ....

Wait...what if orthodox religious people are doing exactly the same thing.

Well some orthodox Christians probably do cherry pick, but if they are true to their faith they’d only be cherry picking from established understanding of the textual meaning of scripture.

There are those claiming a Christian faith but in no way do they uphold or believe in the basic tenants of the faith. So...they’re making things up as they go for some other purpose, generally self promotion, noteriety, or some con job on followers.

Note: UFO cults come to mind especially the ones claiming belief in Christ but then murdering all members just before the “space ship” arrives.

UFO skeptics do the same based on their dismissal of evidence that bears “high strangeness”.

 

[Michael Allen]

At first glance it would seem they are the same, right? But not really.

For one, if you’ve used this approach to conclude in your own mind that the ETH explains UFOs, then you would also have to say the very same method could (should?) conclude that the God of the Bible is actually real.

But you don’t - so that means something else is preventing you from believing it.

Secondly, unlike ETH, we have written and anthropological evidence that what occurred in the Bible is in fact historically accurate.

That evidence supports any conclusions (including beliefs) that come from the formula you provided.

Of course, we do have historians and archeologists who claim that while the events of the Bible are true, none of the “supernatural” events are. They reject those elements entirely.

And yet you believe in the ETH without any evidence equal to that supporting the Bible, AND you accept the “paranormal” or supernatural elements as well.

"...without any evidence equal to that supporting the Bible.."

A good question that couches a huge assumption -- by what evidence or |authority" would you consider the corpus of modern UFO stories as "equal" or "less than" that of the Bible?

What do you mean by "historically accurate" -- are you saying that the story that Jesus was resurrected from death and ascended the heavens is more historically verifiable than modern UFO stories about human close encounters?

Edit: I've enjoyed this discussion, but I will gracefully bow out and agree to disagree for now--I feel as though (and corroborated by your observation) I have hijacked this thread and that it should be moved to another.

 

[Constance]

My original point (and post) was not about the Bible’s authority, but that the majority of ufologists claiming that the Bible contains evidence of extraterrestrial visitation need to understand that it doesn’t.

Hello @B.Bell. I have to toss my 2 centavos in and say that imo your claim has as little evidence to commend it as @Michael Allen's claim that all religions are alike and subject to the selfsame ontological 'error'.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Big changes in direction with NASA this year
New NASA Chief Jim Bridenstine Faces "Uphill Climb" after Contentious Confirmation and great news. Lets hope a interview with Don, Gene and Chris would be a great guest with Dr Brandenburg in the future. Also Nick's great work on Cannock Chase and its long history in odd sightings from meteors and UFO sightings.

 

[kanakaris]

[QUOTE="Many religious people assume that "God's word" is an infallible and complete authority -- when you ask them why, they point to the text and say "here is the word of God and with a deeper understanding you will understand it." (again, by what authority?)

By equal token, by what authority do you claim it couldn’t be?

I’ll answer your question bearing in mind that this thread is really about UFOs and what two guest speakers think of them through the eyes of their own religious experiences. There’s no attempt on my part to proselytize on this forum.

Your question on “authority” is a common one. It’s offered frequently by atheists — but surprisingly only towards Christians.

Atheists seem to ignore Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, Buddhism, etc. while preferring only to challenge Christianity. Why is this? Perhaps because they recognize the Biblical message and it’s real authority but desire to refute it because admitting so may require a change in lifestyle and mindset.

A view that affirms the Bible’s divine inspiration and total truthfulness is of little value if a person has no commitment to the Bible’s complete and absolute authority in one’s personal life. In other words if you reject it why do you demand any proof at all?

Any discussion of Biblical authority must of course begin with God Himself, for all authority is located in God. He is the authority by which I can say this.

God has made Himself known in the Scriptures. Revelation and authority are two sides of the same reality. God declares His authority in His revelation—His inspired Word—and God alone is the ultimate source of his own authority.

But if you need more, then perhaps these facts may answer your question:

1. The Bible is a composite of different books written by many people over a very long period of time. The books include eyewitness accounts of historical events chronicling God’s plan for mankind through His people, the Israelites.
2. Non-Christian sources and archaeology confirm these historical facts as written in the Bible. They aren’t made up.
3. The Bible is the oldest known “book” of assembled ancient writings that have been transcribed over and over again through the millennia with intense focus on maintaining consistent accuracy.
4. The authors wrote to different audiences for different reasons — sometimes through varying perspectives. Hence their writing methods intentionally vary (letters, songs, poems, genealogies, testimonials, etc.).
5. The authors are real people many of whom would be considered credible even in our age. They are eye witnesses who in some cases number in the thousands.
6. The Gospels include embarrassing accounts, like the disciples failing at times to understand Jesus’ teachings. Those testimonies would not have been used by those who called Him Lord if they weren’t true.
7. If the authors had wanted to write a fictional “best seller” for their contemporaries to “buy” hook line and sinker, they would have never placed women at the forefront of key revelations since their patriarchal society would have instantly rejected the book as bogus — and yet they did anyway.
8. God used the Bible’s authors to convey His message, guiding them through visions, dreams and their own experiences. God is His own authority.
9. Prophecy - the Old Testament books contain numerous prophesies which all came true exactly as claimed. Not fiction or guesswork. Not by squeezing something into an old story to make it fit — but real events perfectly described centuries before they actually happened.

[/QUOTE]
'1.The Bible is a composite of different books written by many people over a very long period of time. The books include eyewitness accounts of historical events chronicling God’s plan for mankind through His people, the Israelites.'
You agree that none of the 4 authors of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ever saw , met or talked to Jesus ?
'9.Prophecy - the Old Testament books contain numerous prophesies which all came true exactly as claimed. '
Any examples ?

 

[Michael Allen]

My original point (and post) was not about the Bible’s authority, but that the majority of ufologists claiming that the Bible contains evidence of extraterrestrial visitation need to understand that it doesn’t.

So if the Bible is worthless to you and others, and carry’s no authority or legitimacy, then why do ufologists claim the Bible is authoritative and evidence of alien visitation? Can’t have it both ways.

People who believe the Bible is junk but claim it’s evidence to support their personal belief in aliens must look in the mirror and recognize their hypocracy. That may or may not be you.

Binary thinking. You seem to assume (my inference) that the Bible is either infallible or worthless...most books are neither. Lord, Liar or Lunatic...false trichotomy...and most apply false dichotomy to ancient scriptures.
The Bible is not worthless...but it is also not infallible.

And regarding authority...I do not assume any ONE source is an authority. However multiple corroborating sources spanning history and diverse cultural traditions isn't authority...it is science.