Alexander - UFO's are real

[mike]

He's a former Army intelligence officer, well known to 8 News NOW viewers, who used his contacts in government to track down saucer rumors."They are very real phenomena. I think we need to understand this will lead to a different understanding of how the universe is built," said Dr. John Alexander.
Dr. Alexander is skeptical by nature, but not about UFO's. After many years of stalking the topic through the corridors of power in Washington and the far-flung nooks and crannies of the military industrial complex, the former military intelligence officer is convinced that some of the objects seen in the skies are alien in origin and deserve to be studied.
"UFO's are real and I'm talking about physical reality. There are craft that are seen, balls of light flitting around, to craft -- some of them a mile and a half across. They show up on radar and are really here," he said.
I-Team: Former Intelligence Officer Speaks of UFO's

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/15387087/i-team-former-intelligence-officer-speaks-of-ufos

 

[Randall]

I've read Alexander's book and think it would make a good addition to any UFO library. I have it posted on my site at www.ufopages.com right next to Keans book. I don't buy into the position that Government agencies don't have a policy of secrecy regarding what information they have about UFOs. It's a known fact that they've claimed to have no information and then when forced under FOIA provisions to look for it, they find it, but then they black out huge sections of it to make it useless.

It's also just plain logical. If we civilians know they are real then so do the military, and they have the means to track and investigate them. So they definitely must know more than we do, and the fact that Alexander didn't turn up anything more significant than we already know means he simply wasn't given access to "every nook and cranny" as the video interview claims.

 

[paulb2b2]

Although Alexander rejects ETH. So when he says "UFO's are Real" he means it in such a way as to leave a great deal unanswered. For example he says that he doesnt think that we know enough about the way the Universe is constructed to even know the right questions to ask. So he even rejects the question of "what are they?" Infact I think he hates the question because he passionately believes that its unanswerable.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

There's some serious Kool-Aid being sloshed down in this thread. The government conspiracy thing makes no sense...AT ALL. Haven't y'all noticed how reports differ in various parts of the world? America is all about the bug-eyed scientists, Europe the attractive, ever-so-kindly-Nordics, and S. America? My goodness, many of their UFO occupant descriptions are hardly distinguishable from Bigfoot sightings. Are we to believe that different alien species have laid claim to different parts of the world?

And exactly what do governments of the world agree on? They're all out for their own interests. A global UFO cover-up would be the ultimate weapon for blackmail, "Don't go my way on this and I'll expose everything!" They should be getting along a lot better than they are if they were sitting on something like that. Sanctions get passed, invasions occur, sometimes leaders even get killed, yet there is never a peep.

I don't know if any UFO report has been the real thing or not but all it takes is the ability to be mildly observant of the world around you to know that there is no big conspiracy.

 

[mike]

For me all of those issues are resolved by the deliberate deception aspect.
There may be a good reason why we (individuals and govts) MUST NOT KNOW the actual facts behind the phenomena.

I suspect he has hit on a very deep truth when he says

UFO's are not necessarily extraterrestrial. The ultimate truth, he says, could be much more complicated

I can envisage scenarios where we, both individuals and collectives like govts MUST NEVER KNOW, the detailed reality (at this point in time)

 

[Sean Elifritz]

For me all of those issues are resolved by the deliberate deception aspect.
There may be a good reason why we (individuals and govts) MUST NOT KNOW the actual facts behind the phenomena.

I suspect he has hit on a very deep truth when he says



I can envisage scenarios where we, both individuals and collectives like govts MUST NEVER KNOW, the detailed reality (at this point in time)

Uggh, what? Are you implying that guys like Saddam Hussein might allow themselves to be hanged before exposing what they know (Not to mention that his sons were gunned down months after he knew what was coming...plenty of time to cut a deal to keep the UFO "secret" intact and save his skin)? Or are you saying that even government officials don't know...in which case...what the fuck does that mean?! If government leaders don't know then it isn't a government cover-up, rather sounds like a fantasy where the dreamer pushes things up and then higher and higher to the point where even they can't make a lick of real sense of what the hell it is they're subscribing to.

 

[mike]

No you got it right, no one knows, and thats what alexander says, there is no cover up, they dont know either.
The ones doing the covering up, the ones holding the cards are the ones in the craft.
This makes perfect sense if the occupants of the craft dont want us to know the detailed nature of who and what they are.
And again Alexander makes the same point, that the true reality may be more complicated than ETs in spaceships, it may then be that making us think they are ET's in spaceships is deliberate deception on their part


Indeed one of the alledged narratives involving one of the presidents runs along the line of "we dont know what they are, where they are from and what they want" , "you want me to tell the public that ?"

I must add my usual caveat "i dont know", im not saying this is the case, just that as a possible scenario it resolves many of the issues raised.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

No you got it right, no one knows, and thats what alexander says, there is no cover up, they dont know either.
The ones doing the covering up, the ones holding the cards are the ones in the craft.
This makes perfect sense if the occupants of the craft dont want us to know the detailed nature of who and what they are.
And again Alexander makes the same point, that the true reality may be more complicated than ETs in spaceships, it may then be that making us think they are ET's in spaceships is deliberate deception on their part

That's not what the thread is about though. It's been alleged in here (And millions of other pages on the web) that the "government" (As though there's only one. For it to work the 200+ governments of the world would have to be working together) are sitting on some ultimate UFO secret that only they know. All one has to do is watch a bit of news on the 24 hour cable networks (And they don't have to be talking about UFOs. It's all the other shit that lets you know a secret like that is impossible) or even just walk outside their doors and look to the left and the right to know that it is nonsense.

 

[mike]

i beg to differ

Alexander's blasphemy is that he doubts there is an active cover up by the government

If he is correct, one explaination for a lack of cover up is they have nothing to cover up, that they know no more than we do.
That something is happening, end of story, no futher detail than that, no covered up details.

This would be consistant with the theme that those holding the cards dont want us to know the details, and that what little we do surmise, might be totally incorrect as a result of deliberate deception on their part

But despite his acceptance of the basic UFO story, Alexander is viewed with suspicion and scorn by the pro-UFO crowd, "a real life man in black" someone called him. His frequent trips to UFO conferences are often met with overt hostility and tough questions.
"The true believers are even more hostile than the skeptics. If you don't believe their particular brand, whatever that is, you become the enemy. You've got to buy every bit of it otherwise you are part of the cover up, and blah, blah, blah,"

"My premise is we're not even to the point of asking the right questions. But the UFO community has decided what the answers should be," he said.
To extend his blasphemy even further, Alexander thinks UFO's are not necessarily extraterrestrial. The ultimate truth, he says, could be much more complicated

Again he may be spot on the mark here, and this would fit the deliberate deception scenario

 

[Randall]

That's not what the thread is about though. It's been alleged in here (And millions of other pages on the web) that the "government" (As though there's only one. For it to work the 200+ governments of the world would have to be working together) are sitting on some ultimate UFO secret that only they know. All one has to do is watch a bit of news on the 24 hour cable networks (And they don't have to be talking about UFOs. It's all the other shit that lets you know a secret like that is impossible) or even just walk outside their doors and look to the left and the right to know that it is nonsense.

Actually, what this thread is about is Alexander's claim that he found no evidence of a unified covert UFO investigative group during his search for one. To this I say so what? If there were a bunch of specialists dug in at some undisclosed base, Alexander would never have been given access to it anyway, let alone be permitted to write a book about it. Even Ruppelt's classic had to be screened by the USAF prior to publication.

The other thing is that the process of investigation and monitoring can be spread around throughout the various agencies in such a way that they all do their jobs according to the regulations and no special "department" needs to exist for the work to get done. In security it's called decentralization & compartmentalization. The individuals involved wouldn't even necessarily know they were part of the system. They'd just file their reports according to the existing rules for such ... of which we know there are ( or at least were ) e.g. AFR 200-2, JANAP 146 etc. Whatever they are called now I don't know, but you can be sure they must have a procedure for reporting them, and that those reports are seen only by certain people, and those people can be widely separated within the "defense network" and still be working in concert. Furthermore this entire network can be extended out to allies through secret channels.

So let's ask what evidence do we have of this going on? Again ... I point to the numerous cases where documents have been requested, denials have been given, only to find out that there are indeed documents, and as researchers like Friedman have pointed out, these documents give even more clues to other documents from numerous other agencies.

To sum up, a decentralized & compartmentalized model for monitoring, tracking, collecting and collating military UFO reports seems to be the way it is being handled, therefore it is not suprising that Alexander didn't find the "Majic" door behind which exists the labyrinth of offices for those involved. All he would find is exactly what he did find, scattered bits and pieces of an incomplete picture that he assumes means that no coordinated effort exists.

 

[Ron Collins]

Although Alexander rejects ETH. So when he says "UFO's are Real" he means it in such a way as to leave a great deal unanswered. For example he says that he doesnt think that we know enough about the way the Universe is constructed to even know the right questions to ask. So he even rejects the question of "what are they?" Infact I think he hates the question because he passionately believes that its unanswerable.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this whatsoever. I just bought his book and haven't cracked the cover, but if that is what he is saying then I think I might really like him.

---------- Post added at 06:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 AM ----------

There's some serious Kool-Aid being sloshed down in this thread. The government conspiracy thing makes no sense...AT ALL. Haven't y'all noticed how reports differ in various parts of the world? America is all about the bug-eyed scientists, Europe the attractive, ever-so-kindly-Nordics, and S. America? My goodness, many of their UFO occupant descriptions are hardly distinguishable from Bigfoot sightings. Are we to believe that different alien species have laid claim to different parts of the world?

And exactly what do governments of the world agree on? They're all out for their own interests. A global UFO cover-up would be the ultimate weapon for blackmail, "Don't go my way on this and I'll expose everything!" They should be getting along a lot better than they are if they were sitting on something like that. Sanctions get passed, invasions occur, sometimes leaders even get killed, yet there is never a peep.

I don't know if any UFO report has been the real thing or not but all it takes is the ability to be mildly observant of the world around you to know that there is no big conspiracy.

Well stated.

---------- Post added at 07:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 AM ----------

To sum up, a decentralized & compartmentalized model for monitoring, tracking, collecting and collating military UFO reports seems to be the way it is being handled, therefore it is not suprising that Alexander didn't find the "Majic" door behind which exists the labyrinth of offices for those involved. All he would find is exactly what he did find, scattered bits and pieces of an incomplete picture that he assumes means that no coordinated effort exists.

I think this is absolutely correct. To expand on it a bit I would say that due to the nature of security compartmentalization there may not exist any methodology for any one person or group to show a need to know broad enough to gain access to all the data and lines of research. Furthermore, each line of inquiry could be following the rules laid out in their own mandate and when necessary creating exponentially more layers with more security. So basically, a viral series of compartmentalization could create many government sponsored and government funded groups with no mechanism for a centralized command and control structure. No brooding secret cabal of knowledge mongers. Just lots of code named projects spawning other code named projects. I don't think that is too far fetched to consider.

 

[Ezechiel]

Although Alexander rejects ETH. So when he says "UFO's are Real" he means it in such a way as to leave a great deal unanswered. For example he says that he doesnt think that we know enough about the way the Universe is constructed to even know the right questions to ask. So he even rejects the question of "what are they?" Infact I think he hates the question because he passionately believes that its unanswerable.

The behavior of some UFO's can't be explained by our current physics, therefore we are not ready to answer the question 'what are they'.

Organizing the statement this way makes a whole lot of sense and better underscores what he's really saying: humans are plagued with a fundamental lack of humility and a centrist attitude that corrupts their judgement. We are the best of the best of the best....... Not

What do you do with this 'stuff' then ? Store all the cases away until we can decode them ?

The main flaw in his approach is that some cases may be decodable, why put everything in the same basket ?. Some visitors may be using technologies that we will soon be exploring (fusion propulsion) while others may be altering the fabric of space which is much further down the road for us.

He'd make a great guest

 

[softbeard]

Actually, what this thread is about is Alexander's claim that he found no evidence of a unified covert UFO investigative group during his search for one. To this I say so what? If there were a bunch of specialists dug in at some undisclosed base, Alexander would never have been given access to it anyway, let alone be permitted to write a book about it.

Ufology, of course, there is no way to prove a negative. It's like the old adage of a teacup orbiting Venus; you can't prove it's not there. But be careful when buying into conspiracy theories; the line between 'us' and 'them' is often a lot less distinct than you might think. And though conspiracies do occur, they never stand the test of time. These are just general principals I have found do much in clearing muddy situations.
BTW @Wickerman1972: Re that Belgium triangle UFO picture; I told you "10 minutes in Photoshop".

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Stan Friedman responds to Knapp's article--(btw: We've extended an invitation to have a debate on an episode of the Paracast--chris)

From the UFOUpdates List:

"I have known George and John for more than 20 years and respect
them both.I think George is one of the most informed main stream
jourmnalists on UFOs in the country. However, having read John's
book, and heard an hour discussion between him and George, and
heard him in Phoenix at Open Minds and had a sort of debate with
him there, I must say I think he has reached wrong conclusions
partly because he has a number of false claims in the book.


1. His claim that there is no secret data collection or
investigative effort is based on the fact that he and his
associates were unable to find it. One of those absence of
evidence is evidence for absence arguments. We know from the NSA
and CIA TOP SECRET Code word UFO documents, it would have taken
a need to know besides such a clearance. No evidence is provided
that any of the people searching had such a need to know.Why
would anybody with the clearance and need to know have breeched
security by talking to people, even those with a TS
clearance,who didn't have the n-t-k.?

2. John claims that President Truman had already stated that
UFOs were real and not from here, supposedly at a press
conference. No evidence was provided that such a press
conference was held or such a statement was made. The Truman
Library did a search at my request and could find no such
evidence. Claims without evidence aren't worth much.

3. John claims that USAF Secretary Sheila Widnall, as part of
the GAO investigation re Roswell had offered amnesty to any
former military person, who thought the information he had was
classified, to speak out openly..That simply isn't true. She
said they could speak with Colonel Richard Weaver who had access
to all special access programs. He is the disinformation
specialist who wrote "The Roswell Report: Truth vs Fiction in
the NM Desert." He provided the fiction. Her letter is on the
internet.

4. John dismissed the MJ-12 documents based on false claims made
by The National Archives early on which were later changed as I
noted in "TOP SECRET/MAJIC" (2005). For example, the GAO itself
later said they had found documents classified TOP SECRET
RESTRICTED despite earlier claims that that designation..was not
in use at the time...

5. There was no mention of the Bolender memo clearly
establishing that there were separate communications channels
for the USAF for reports which could affect national security
and that these were not part of the Blue Book System contrary to
contiinuing claims that there was no National Security aspect to
UFOs

In conclusion I think the evidence really does indicate that
there is a Cosmic Watergate, that Roswell involved an alien
saucer, that there is a group akin to Majestic 12.

Be happy to do a formal debate with John,

Stan Friedman"

 

[Trajanus]

I didn't read Alexander's book but heard he says Roswell was a balloon. Wonder if he'd like to debate Stan and KDR on that, lol.

 

[paulb2b2]

I am in-contact with John Alexander. I think that I like his views but he keeps leaving me with questions swirling around my mind. I have asked him how he thinks that Ufology should advance given the fact that he says that people within the field do not even know the right questions to ask.

He seems to do alot of interviews and so on (hence he might be busy and unable to answer anytime soon) so I do not know when he will respond to my latest questions. But when he answers the question above... (assuming that he does) then I will post his answer here.

 

[Ron Collins]

I don't think Roswell was a balloon. I think anyone debating Stan Friedman on that front is in for a long night. However, I think there are serious problems with the testimony/credibility of certain prominent individuals in the he Roswell story. Stan ardently defends a few of those and supports a fair amount of the story with this testimony. These things weaken his argument a bit. His habit of retreating into oft repeated canned phraseology doesn't help either.

A further distinction though. Most of Freedman's argument pertains to the world and the phenomena as it existed 1947-1953. It is possible that in the beginning a group met to decide how best to deal with whatever it was that happened outside of Roswell. However, that may or may not translate into a continuation of that group as an entity. Study groups are appointed all the time. The mere existence of that group in 1947-48 does not necessarily mean it weathered the harsh political climates of the intervening 64 years.

This isn't to say he is a bad choice to debate Alexander. I would just be prepared to be peppered with the same Friedmanisms we all know and love.

 

[dyingsun]

Well, at this point.. It will be interesting, really looking forward to that one on the grounds that it's a debate no one can win in the eye of the observer, except provable facts are put on the table.

 

[Randall]

Ufology, of course, there is no way to prove a negative. It's like the old adage of a teacup orbiting Venus; you can't prove it's not there. But be careful when buying into conspiracy theories; the line between 'us' and 'them' is often a lot less distinct than you might think. And though conspiracies do occur, they never stand the test of time. These are just general principals I have found do much in clearing muddy situations.
BTW @Wickerman1972: Re that Belgium triangle UFO picture; I told you "10 minutes in Photoshop".

Sure ... I agree that proving a negative is difficult, however is that not what Alexander is doing by claiming there is no secret investigative branch for official military UFO investigators? He didn't find it therefore it's not there? So it goes both ways ... and how quickly the skeptics fail to recognize their own bias, not to mention the faulty assumption that a secret effort could be decentralized and compartmentalized ... which seems to be standard fare for high security projects anyway, and is exactly what is suggested by the paper trails for the info that we have been able secure through the FOIA, and is exactly what Alexander seemed to find during his own search ( as stated in my complete post earlier ).

 

[bbridges]

i read and enjoyed Alexander's book. So imminently reasonable and reassuring. After all, if the 'insider's he spoke with had knowledge of any organized program, surely he would have been told. So that's the way it works...