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12-9-07 show

BrandonD

Skilled Investigator
Verum said:
Agreed. It could have been a miraculous mass hallucination.

Sorry to break this to you, but believing in mass hallucinations is the same as believing in the miracle at Lourdes.

-There exists no evidence to support the premise that a bunch of people at Lourdes witnessed a genuine miraculous event.

-There exists no evidence to support the premise that a bunch of people can have matching synchronized hallucinations.

The two prime explanations of the Lourdes phenomenon are equally baseless, so really your only ground for choosing one over the other is that one helps keep your tidy picture of the world bound together.

The idea that the world is ultimately inscrutable to the human mind may be very frightening to you, but that doesn't make it any less likely to be true.
 
V

Verum

Guest
Brandon D wrote...
-There exists no evidence to support the premise that a bunch of people at Lourdes witnessed a genuine miraculous event.
Of course there isn't. Yet 50,000 people, including newspaper reporters and government officials reported seeing the event, and the occurrence was well documented worldwide. My point is that even if thousands of people in Caracas saw what David claims to have seen that does not necessarily preclude the possibility of it having been a mass hallucination/hysteria, pareidolia or whatever phenomenon it is which gives rise to masses of people claiming to see/feel what may not objectively be there. That is an issue to be resolved AFTER the existence of an event perceived by a multitude has been reasonably confirmed. Whether the "spinning sun" was a meteorological event, an atmospheric aberration, a miracle or mass hallucination is not relevant to me; similarly once we establish that thousands saw what David saw then the "what was it?" begins and will almost certainly fade into the realm of another inexplicable event.

At this point, though, let's just focus on getting something other than an anecdote that thousands saw whatever it may have been in Caracas. This seems quite easy to me. Either thousands saw something truly extraordinary at X time, X place and X date or they didn't. If they did, then David has established enough credibility to at least be given the benefit of the doubt for his other extraordinary claims of the paranormal. If that can't be established then there is a far more personal set of issues to be resolved, none of which would concern me or anyone else but the affected party(ies). But, surely everyone shares an interest in getting documentation for this claimed remarkable event.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
If it's so easy, go for it, man. No more armchair research and knee-jerk comments, Verum. You feel you know how it's done, go ahead and do your own research.

Are you up to the challenge or would you prefer to make excuses?
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
Verum said:
At this point, though, let's just focus on getting something other than an anecdote that thousands saw whatever it may have been in Caracas. This seems quite easy to me. Either thousands saw something truly extraordinary at X time, X place and X date or they didn't. If they did, then David has established enough credibility to at least be given the benefit of the doubt for his other extraordinary claims of the paranormal. If that can't be established then there is a far more personal set of issues to be resolved, none of which would concern me or anyone else but the affected party(ies). But, surely everyone shares an interest in getting documentation for this claimed remarkable event.

If The Paracast ever goes major, they are going to come under this kind of scrutiny all the time. Having proof of this tremendous sighting is sure to add much credibility to the hosts and the show.

Not having it, on the other hand, is sure to hinder it with the masses. It is a bit hard to swallow for the especially skeptical that this huge sighting happened, was in the paper, but there is no proof of it. But not only that, he also has all of these other paranormal events too, none with hard proof. It's a freak of nature to have just one of these events, but bunches?

I do think the burden is on David to validate the sighting for the sake of the show and his own credibility. Extraordinary claims do require at least some evidence. His own brother alone would not pass muster to the skeptic.

With all of that said, I still do believe him at this point. "Trust but verify".
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
DBTrek said:
How did this become a thread about badgering David to produce proof from his Venezuela experience?

One forum participant appears to have it in for David. I mean there are lots and lots of sightings that warrant investigation. You don't have to concentrate on the stuff David experienced as a child. On the other hand, while he may not have the evidence that you want him to provide, you learn an awful lot about him and what made him the man he is today.

I think, however, it would be fair to look at cases that deserve further investigation, and other paranormal events, but I think it's high time that we drop this one. After all, the Venezuela sighting was discussed last year. Let's move on.
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
DBTrek said:
How did this become a thread about badgering David to produce proof from his Venezuela experience?

Simple, this show was supposed to be an answer to those who have asked for the hosts to be interviewed themselves. But instead they just spoke among themselves, with no one to give them the tough questions.

So we are making up for it. :)

I just imagine what would happen if a guest came on the show with David's story and evidence plus a bunch of other paranormal events. I think he'd get eaten alive!

And Gene, what does last year have to do with it? Roswell was 60 years ago and still being studied :)
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Miah said:
DBTrek said:
How did this become a thread about badgering David to produce proof from his Venezuela experience?

Simple, this show was supposed to be an answer to those who have asked for the hosts to be interviewed themselves. But instead they just spoke among themselves, with no one to give them the tough questions.

So we are making up for it. :)

But don't expect that you'll like the answers. :)
 

Siani

Despiser of religious nuts
Miah said:
It's a freak of nature to have just one of these events, but bunches?

With respect, that's a fallacy. It's a well-documented fact that many experiencers of the paranormal will undergo numerous anomalous events during their lifetimes. Also, repeat experiencers often encounter a variety of paranormal phenomena. It's not at all uncommon for UFO witnesses to encounter apparitions or other anomalous phenomena. In fact, it often seems a pre-requisite for a UFO witness to have also encountered ghosts, apparitions, non-human entities, etc.
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
Siani said:
Miah said:
It's a freak of nature to have just one of these events, but bunches?

With respect, that's a fallacy. It's a well-documented fact that many experiencers of the paranormal will undergo numerous anomalous events during their lifetimes.

"Experiencers" make up a small amount of the population bub.

Siani said:
Also, repeat experiencers often encounter a variety of paranormal phenomena. It's not at all uncommon for UFO witnesses to encounter apparitions or other anomalous phenomena. In fact, it often seems a pre-requisite for a UFO witness to have also encountered ghosts, apparitions, non-human entities, etc.

But wouldn't they look that much more credible if just one of the events was mass verified?

They also don't usually run shows on the paranormal. :)
 
V

Verum

Guest
Gene wrote...
If it's so easy, go for it, man. No more armchair research and knee-jerk comments, Verum. You feel you know how it's done, go ahead and do your own research.

Are you up to the challenge or would you prefer to make excuses?
Let me understand this. I should invest my energy in proving someone else's extraordinary claim? I have made no claims of being a "researcher". I have made no extraordinary claims of any sort. I never said it was "easy", either, did I? In fact, you asked for suggestions, which I offered (in fact, I offered them before you asked).

Now, by what logic does the person questioning the basic facts of a publicly presented extraordinary claim bear the burden of proving that claim. As of right now, we know there is no objective proof of an "event". It is, therefore, incumbent upon David to present such evidence. Your suggestion, Gene, is duplicitous, transparent, specious and ridiculous, and, by the way, completely inconsistent with the positions you have both repeatedly taken with numerous guests on your podcast. If you and David are comfortable setting as your standard for any claims of the paranormal as "an anecdote" just say so. But don't try and shift the burden of your claims onto those presenting reasonable challenges to essential facts. That's a nonsensical and cowardly sidestepping of your responsibilities as the person advancing the claim. What I do know is that if I offered such a claim I would have the integrity to support it and, having gone public with it, make every herculean effort possible to either prove or disprove it.

And, DBTrek, this became a thread about what was presented on the recent show, including David's extraordinary claims of 5-and-counting paranormal events. As they say, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. I didn't make the claims. David did. I didn't ask for anything more than they have demanded of almost every guest they've had who has made a claim of any sort, let alone one as spectacular and easily documented as this. I said nothing disrespectful or out-of-line in spite of the personal attacks by David, Gene and some of the posters here. In any case, I really question why are they so defensive and evasive instead of embracing the opportunity to use their new-found cache in ufological circles to document an extraordinary claim once and for all?

I really can't spend any more time on this now. I think I've said all I care to or need to, and I think a point has been made. From here on it simply becomes parrying over David's refusal to make a serious effort to uncover foundational documentation of his most spectacular claim. Of course, I fully expect further personal attacks, both here and on the podcast, because I dared question what they would rather leave unquestioned. That has fast become The Paracast's forte for responding to anyone who presents an ordinary challenge to an extraordinary claim...but only where that claim is made by a host and not a guest.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
It comes down to this: David is not presenting anything he's experienced as final proof of anything. He's not the only host of a paranormal show to report experiences either. You are also being hypocritical by constantly demanding extraordinary proof from David and not demanding the same of every other person who has had a UFO sighting reported in this forum.

In the case of the event in Venezuela, it happened over 30 years ago, and the trail is far colder than recent events.

If anything, there's enough going on in recent years where you could possibly get some useful information -- far more useful than that singular event.
 

Siani

Despiser of religious nuts
Miah said:
"Experiencers" make up a small amount of the population bub.

Says who? From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal):

[A] survey conducted in 2006 by researchers from Australia's Monash University[21] sought to determine what types of phenomena people claim to have experienced and the effects these experiences have had on their lives. The study was conducted as an online survey with over 2,000 respondents from around the world participating. The results revealed that around 70% of the respondents believe to have had an unexplained paranormal event that changed their life, mostly in a positive way. About 70% also claimed to have seen, heard, or been touched by an animal or person that they knew was not there; 80% have reported having a premonition, and almost 50% stated they recalled a previous life.[21]

Okay, I know this is only a small sample, and cannot be 100% relied upon for 100% accuracy, but even in my own circle of acquaintances, I know more people who have, than have not, experienced an event they perceived as paranormal. Most people don't have the nerve or inclination to discuss it, probably to avoid having to justify themselves to doubters, and to avoid being called liars by people who have no similar experiences to call upon.

Miah said:
They also don't usually run shows on the paranormal. :)

Very many experiencers become involved in researching or investigating the paranormal, in an attempt to try to reach some kind of understanding of what they experienced. So it's not so far-fetched that such an individual might present a paranormal radio show, write paranormal-themed books, websites, etc. If David was making huge sums of money from the Paracast, I could understand why some people might question his motives for revealing these events. But as it is, the Paracast is a free show, with free archives, and David has mentioned he worries that his professional reputation may have been harmed by revealing his experiences. So what reason would he have to manufacture or exaggerate his accounts? We're not dealing with the Billy Meier cult in this instance, are we?
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
Gene Steinberg said:
You are also being hypocritical by constantly demanding extraordinary proof from David and not demanding the same of every other person who has had a UFO sighting reported in this forum.

Gene, not everyone on this forum runs a show about the paranormal, and not a lot of them give us reason to believe anything they say at all. I know I sift through a lot of crap to get to anything worth while.

I know I am only interested because David has given me reason to believe his claims simply based on how he carries himself on the show and how he scrutinizes others. That and the fact that it seems like a huge paranormal event is being allowed to slip through the cracks.

And I didn't read what got the fight started between you guys and Verum, I saw the crap start last week and I kept skipping through it looking for more input on the show with Dolan. But he is right about most of what he is saying and asking now IMO, can you guys kiss and make up and show some respect all-around now? We obviously have some intelligent minds here, lets work together to figure out what all this shit means!
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Miah said:
Gene Steinberg said:
You are also being hypocritical by constantly demanding extraordinary proof from David and not demanding the same of every other person who has had a UFO sighting reported in this forum.

Gene, not everyone on this forum runs a show about the paranormal, and not a lot of them give us reason to believe anything they say at all. I know I sift through a lot of crap to get to anything worth while.

I know I am only interested because David has given me reason to believe his claims simply based on how he carries himself on the show and how he scrutinizes others. That and the fact that it seems like a huge paranormal event is being allowed to slip through the cracks.

And I didn't read what got the fight started between you guys and Verum, I saw the crap start last week and I kept skipping through it looking for more input on the show with Dolan. But he is right about most of what he is saying and asking now IMO, can you guys kiss and make up and show some respect all-around now? We obviously have some intelligent minds here, lets work together to figure out what all this shit mean!

It's not as if David hasn't made inquiries. In fact, when we had a UFO investigator from South America on the show, twice, we asked him about it, and we've asked others, including Scott Corrales (who also specializes in such cases) if they had any knowledge of this event. Certainly, David will continue to try to fit things together, but this isn't something we can do by ourselves in a vacuum. We don't have large investigative facilities, or any such facilities, and we don't claim to be paranormal investigators either.

Also, we don't have a staff of producers and researchers putting these shows together, as some shows do. When I first began my tech show, my son and I called it "garage band radio," before there was an application known as GarageBand from Apple. What it means is that we are working on a non-existent budget, and we have real limits in what we can do.

So really we do need your help to research this material. Obviously that's hard when it's a case involving one or two witnesses, but his sightings in Venezuela and New Jersey appear to be sufficiently public to possibly involve a large number of witnesses. I know we have listeners all around the world, and some of you are experienced investigators.

So in situations like this, we welcome everyone's assistance to nail down some of this information.
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
Siani said:
It's a well-documented fact that many experiencers of the paranormal will undergo numerous anomalous events during their lifetimes.

Siani said:
Miah said:
"Experiencers" make up a small amount of the population bub.

Says who? From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal):

[A] survey conducted in 2006 by researchers from Australia's Monash University[21] sought to determine what types of phenomena people claim to have experienced and the effects these experiences have had on their lives. The study was conducted as an online survey with over 2,000 respondents from around the world participating. The results revealed that around 70% of the respondents believe to have had an unexplained paranormal event that changed their life, mostly in a positive way. About 70% also claimed to have seen, heard, or been touched by an animal or person that they knew was not there; 80% have reported having a premonition, and almost 50% stated they recalled a previous life.[21]

Okay, I know this is only a small sample, and cannot be 100% relied upon for 100% accuracy, but even in my own circle of acquaintances, I know more people who have, than have not, experienced an event they perceived as paranormal. Most people don't have the nerve or inclination to discuss it, probably to avoid having to justify themselves to doubters, and to avoid being called liars by people who have no similar experiences to call upon.

So let me see if I have this straight, 70% of the population have paranormal events, and many of them have repeat anomalous events during their lifetimes...wouldn't that make most of the world nuts?

I'm not arguing with you, but your points are off-topic.
 

Miah

Skilled Investigator
Gene Steinberg said:
It's not as if David hasn't made inquiries. In fact, when we had a UFO investigator from South America on the show, twice, we asked him about it, and we've asked others, including Scott Corrales (who also specializes in such cases) if they had any knowledge of this event. Certainly, David will continue to try to fit things together, but this isn't something we can do by ourselves in a vacuum. We don't have large investigative facilities, or any such facilities, and we don't claim to be paranormal investigators either.

Also, we don't have a staff of producers and researchers putting these shows together, as some shows do. When I first began my tech show, my son and I called it "garage band radio," before there was an application known as GarageBand from Apple. What it means is that we are working on a non-existent budget, and we have real limits in what we can do.

So really we do need your help to research this material. Obviously that's hard when it's a case involving one or two witnesses, but his sightings in Venezuela and New Jersey appear to be sufficiently public to possibly involve a large number of witnesses. I know we have listeners all around the world, and some of you are experienced investigators.

So in situations like this, we welcome everyone's assistance to nail down some of this information.

I understand your limitations, and me personally, I only want to help and get to the bottom of it all.

I take the 2 bolded statements from you to mean that you really do want our input and help, then please be willing to answer questions and let us be involved.

You will notice that I posted some information I found on the newspaper quite some time ago here: http://theparacast.com/forums/will-this-generation-proactively-take-over-ufo-field-t-1033.html#pid13842
I actually looked very hard for more info on the subject from my "armchair" on the interwebs, and even emailed them about it. I know it was pretty futile, but I wanted to try something.

All I can say is that if that experience happened to me, I would be spending much of my own time and money trying to bring it to the world.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
I'm very serious here, and I'm sure that David would be happy to provide additional information, if available, to help you listeners find more details about his various experiences. We can't do it alone.

In addition, it's high time the flamewars stop. Demands will not deliver facts. Research will, however.
 

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