Origin of the Phenomena

[Ron Collins]

Ivette,

I don't know what you saw or experienced. I don't think you have enough information to make any sort of determination about the nature of what you saw. That is the important thing here, recognizing what we know and what we don't know and refusing to fill in the gaps with our imaginations. People often see weird things and jump to conclusions about what they were without sufficient information. All things are indeed possible but not all things are probable.

Personally, I feel that this is precisely what happens most of the time. Something anomalous is seen/experienced and the observer/experiencer fill in the gaps and weave a a story to help them cope with the abnormality of the event. I think this filling in of gaps is proportional with the degree of abnormality as it relates to the individual and own propensities and life experience. This isn't to say that an anomalous event didn't occur. I think something truly anomalous is often the catalyst. It is just that when such certainty and conviction of "knowledge" or "truth" is conveyed by the experience I think it is much more likely that this is a human factor rather than being zapped by Overlord Zorn's Truth ray.

 

[hak]

And sometimes people are so beguiled into thinking that something doesn't exist, that they explain it away, their brains cannot absorb the improbability of it.

 

[Ezechiel]

the observer/experiencer fill in the gaps and weave a a story to help them cope with the abnormality of the event. I think this filling in of gaps is proportional with the degree of abnormality as it relates to the individual and own propensities and life experience.

Makes perfect sense... observer backgrounds will shape accounts. Translating the perception of unknown forces and behaviors beyond human capabilities can lead to spiritual revelations or scientific awe ( as in wow we'll be able to do this some day). I would love to witness achievements in gravity control as others would prefer to witness the return of Jesus Christ

 

[plumbbob12]

Hak: I don't know how old you are, but you may remember reading the 1960's books written by Carlos Castaneda. In one of his adventures, Don Juan, the Indian sorcery tells him this very thing. The mind has been conditioned in what to "see" and what can be described as real. When someone catches something that falls outside his world view, or out of "the corner of his eye", there is that brief moment when he actually "sees" it, until the brain kicks in and says; "this thing you see cannot possibly exist", and then tells you that what you were seeing was just a bush shaking, or a tumble weed blowing across the field rather than what it really was.
I think that a lot of our ancient ancestors knew a lot more about the workings of the mind than we do today.

 

[trainedobserver]

It is just that when such certainty and conviction of "knowledge" or "truth" is conveyed by the experience I think it is much more likely that this is a human factor rather than being zapped by Overlord Zorn's Truth ray.

I would agree. You have to wonder if a sufficiently strange anomaly doesn't instigate some sort of overflow condition in an observer's mind causing them to process it differently than normal allowing them to reach a conviction or conclusion they wouldn't otherwise. I have talked to a several people one on one who have experienced what they believed to be supernatural beings, aliens, and alien spacecraft. In each case I was utterly convinced of their truthfulness. Mainly because I knew them and their characters prior to these revelations, but for other reasons as well, like their own seemingly involuntary reactions for one. That doesn't mean they are all telling the truth I know, but for my small sampling, I am convinced they were telling me the truth as they understood it. The overarching theme coming from this small sampling of experiences is that (as one fellow put it) we are not at the top of the food chain. Whether it's a piece of hardware or a being, apparently when you have one of these truly anomalous experiences you are left with a feeling of inferiority if not helplessness which is closely followed by fear or wonder. We know that the triggering of this predator and prey circuitry in the brain can be triggered erroneously (like mistaking a coiled rope for a snake.)There may be things happening in the observer's mind's that are metaphorically triggering the dangerous non-human predator recognition circuits and causing to arrive at the conclusion it must be gods or aliens (which I would argue are one in the same.)

 

[Hotkafka]

Personally, I feel that this is precisely what happens most of the time. Something anomalous is seen/experienced and the observer/experiencer fill in the gaps and weave a a story to help them cope with the abnormality of the event. I think this filling in of gaps is proportional with the degree of abnormality as it relates to the individual and own propensities and life experience. This isn't to say that an anomalous event didn't occur. I think something truly anomalous is often the catalyst. It is just that when such certainty and conviction of "knowledge" or "truth" is conveyed by the experience I think it is much more likely that this is a human factor rather than being zapped by Overlord Zorn's Truth ray.

I get where you're coming from, and I too am interested in the experience from a denuded, psychological standpoint. When you look at these types of anomalous experiences, they appear to include a relatively prosaic progression of stages: beginning with a moment of pure, unfettered awareness and connection w/ the primacy of the experience - kind of an energetic "shock" sort of thing, and then comes the psychological response/reaction, which appears to be where the codec or schema of cultural themes/symbols and reframes drop into the picture like a tin fun-house from a hot air balloon.. Makes me lean toward a Jungian and depth psychology interpretation: that the symbols that are emerging from the communal conscious have a particular job to do at both the personal and cultural level -as well as all stops inbetween. But what is interesting is the fact that there seems to be a certain process at work here, a momentum abiding by a still misunderstood agenda, that which has been theorized as belonging to some still misunderstood principle of the "unconscious," i.e. The Psychological Underworld. My question is what in the hell are the triggers? Trying to impose or uncover any logic or rationality in discovering/predicting a pattern to any sort of anomalous activity at this point has proved perfectly fruitless. ...And why in the hell is it that we as a species appear to be subservient to the agenda of the damnable unconscious?

 

[Ivette]

I think we will never get to a conclusion. The more we try to rationalize any of these phenomenons the more complicated it gets. If any of you guys think of your selves experts of the mind, I have a question about that 80% of the mind that we supposedly don't use. Does that works like it’s off or do we all randomly use a different part of it. I explain my self:<O</O
Do I use circuits that you don’t and vice versa. I am kind of wondering if we were to use 100% of our brain we will be something else, but, by me having different abilities from yours makes us how different we are. Since I am far from knowing much there is to know about the brain it only makes me wonder more and more for I try to rationalize all these conclusions with no real success, if I may add. If you need to contact Mr. Tyson it will be great. (I’m only kidding). An example or analogy will make it easier.

 

[trainedobserver]

I think we will never get to a conclusion. The more we try to rationalize any of these phenomenons the more complicated it gets.

That is very true I think. We actually know very little and what we think we do know is questionable.

If any of you guys think of your selves experts of the mind, I have a question about that 80% of the mind that we supposedly don't use. Does that works like it’s off or do we all randomly use a different part of it.

I'm no expert, but I do know that is a complete and total myth. People just repeat it. It has no basis in fact. I think you meant to say "brain" instead of mind. Here is an excellent article explaining why it is a myth.

 

[Ezechiel]

I think we will never get to a conclusion. The more we try to rationalize any of these phenomenons the more complicated it gets. If any of you guys think of your selves experts of the mind, I have a question about that 80% of the mind that we supposedly don't use. Does that works like it’s off or do we all randomly use a different part of it. I explain my self:<O</O
Do I use circuits that you don’t and vice versa. I am kind of wondering if we were to use 100% of our brain we will be something else, but, by me having different abilities from yours makes us how different we are. Since I am far from knowing much there is to know about the brain it only makes me wonder more and more for I try to rationalize all these conclusions with no real success, if I may add. If you need to contact Mr. Tyson it will be great. (I’m only kidding). An example or analogy will make it easier.

I think we can get to conclusions by segmenting the phenomena. IMHO, packing entire spectrum of UFO phenomenon in one box is a huge mistake.

I'd start by addressing nuts and bots structured craft (a la Stanton Friedman... explored by Leslie Kean) that leave a physical signature in our time/space (radar, radiation, circular soil burn marks.... etc, etc...) Getting the NORAD UFO tracking records and correlating them with documented events would be awesome....!! If they didn't catch the Phoenix lights... then what's the point of NORAD. The thing was the size of a few football fields (Fife Symington) and only 400km from Cheyene Mountain .... gimme a break rofl.

You want a conclusion, you'll find it in a Colorado mountain !

 

[Trajanus]

I think we will never get to a conclusion.

Too pessimistic. Why even bother talking about the phenomenon at all, if you doubt we'll ever figure it out? There are grounds for believing the government has some definitive answers at least.

I'm no expert, but I do know that is a complete and total myth. People just repeat it. It has no basis in fact. I think you meant to say "brain" instead of mind. Here is an excellent article explaining why it is a myth.

Right, why would a large brain be selected for if most of it had no function i.e. conferred no survival value?

 

[trainedobserver]

Too pessimistic. Why even bother talking about the phenomenon at all, if you doubt we'll ever figure it out?

That's a good question. There is always the hope that some breakthrough will occur.

There are grounds for believing the government has some definitive answers at least.

What are the grounds for believing that?

 

[tyder001]

What are the grounds for believing that?[/QUOTE]

That is a great question. I'm afraid that "landing traces" and "witnessness who saw a light in the sky" and "they" know more than "they" are saying just doesn't cut it. I honestly don't have problem with spacemen/women or whatever. But, I honestly see no evidence (not even evidence that I can debate) that we are being visited from "outer space."

 

[trainedobserver]

What are the grounds for believing that?

That is a great question. I'm afraid that "landing traces" and "witnessness who saw a light in the sky" and "they" know more than "they" are saying just doesn't cut it.

That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking what are the grounds for believing that the government has definitive answers.

 

[tyder001]

That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking what are the grounds for believing that the government has definitive answers.

Well, Excuuuuusssssseeeee Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------

The government does not have all the answers. Actually, I don't doubt that something extraordinary is going on. Maybe it really is E.T. and it could be time travelers. It could be government psy ops and it could even be a spiritual extra dimensional event. I honestly don't know. I have seen a u.f.o. on at least two and maybe 3 occassions. But, I can't say it absolutely wasn't an earthly craft of some kind. The thing is I keep hearing about "trace" samples. Can somebody explain to me what a trace sample even is? A sample of what? How did it come about? I think the discovery of alien life would be incredible I just don't see the proof.

 

[RJHark00]

It's unlikely that the government (Really: it's thousands of separate agencies) is competent enough to have any definitive answers or even not-so-definitive answers about anything related to actual alien life. I'm not saying this to be a wise-ass, but the most reasonable scenario is that for many years the powers-that-be supported the idea of UFO's and threw something out here and there to suggest some nefarious conspiracy and distract attention from other things. If that was the plan, it worked beautifully; the culture has taken on a life of its own.

 

[tyder001]

It's unlikely that the government (Really: it's thousands of separate agencies) is competent enough to have any definitive answers or even not-so-definitive answers about anything related to actual alien life. I'm not saying this to be a wise-ass, but the most reasonable scenario is that for many years the powers-that-be supported the idea of UFO's and threw something out here and there to suggest some nefarious conspiracy and distract attention from other things. If that was the plan, it worked beautifully; the culture has taken on a life of its own.

I hear that quite a bit these days. Not sure there is anymore evicence for that than E.T. but there is at least as much evidence for that as for E.T.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[RJHark00]

You're right in that "exhibit A" is probably anecdotal evidence about the government being so screwed up in other ways that it's unlikely to be able to engineer a cover-up and keep it this quiet for so long. I'm really dissatisfied with the ETH also, because the most common reason ufologists say our leadership lies is because it would lead to mass panic and undermine social and religious institutions (or some variant of this) to know that life existed off-world. That may have been true 30-40-50-60 years ago, but I'm not sure it really applies today because of the way our culture has evolved (ironically, to include cute, benign greys on t-shirts).

Whatever is going on is a lot broader in scope, I think, and manifests itself in small ways that don't directly affect government institutions and evades their attention on a day-to-day basis.

Thanks for the welcome Tyder001- I'm looking forward to some great discussions here!

 

[Trajanus]

That's a good question. There is always the hope that some breakthrough will occur.

If it hasn't already, in some secret government facility.

What are the grounds for believing that?

Crash retrieval cases. You'd think that, even if just one were real--and a new book says even Aztec was--they'd have some definite answers by now.

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

You're right in that "exhibit A" is probably anecdotal evidence about the government being so screwed up in other ways that it's unlikely to be able to engineer a cover-up and keep it this quiet for so long.

They sure kept Ultra quiet for 3 decades, and they have a strong incentive to cover up ETs.

I'm really dissatisfied with the ETH also, because the most common reason ufologists say our leadership lies is because it would lead to mass panic and undermine social and religious institutions (or some variant of this) to know that life existed off-world.

Not life per se, somewhere else; that's no problem. But more advanced life coming here now--different issue.

That may have been true 30-40-50-60 years ago, but I'm not sure it really applies today because of the way our culture has evolved (ironically, to include cute, benign greys on t-shirts).

Oh, we've evolved but not sufficiently for the public to be really ready. The phenomenon remains pretty much in the background.

 

[RJHark00]

They sure kept Ultra quiet for 3 decades, and they have a strong incentive to cover up ETs.

They couldn't cover up the fact that a president received oral sex in the oval office, nor could they hide that there turned out to be no WMD's in Iraq, and they had strong incentive for those. My thinking is that if something as profound as an ET crash occurred, that the gov't would have done an even worse job of covering it up, and there would be more concrete physical evidence. Or, alternatively, that alien pilots would be more adept at flying their highly advanced craft. If they're abducting people on a large scale in collusion with the government agencies, then they're either doing a really bad job of covering this up (in that there are so many cases that we can talk about) or a really good job (in that the physical evidence is specious at best). Guess it depends on perspective. I'm glad that you brought up Ultra because I think that's the paradigm that's been grafted onto the UFO phenomenon in our thinking, especially is you believe in the abduction phenomenon. Even then, government incompetency in destroying/hiding evidence was a big part of the reason that Ultra was fully revealed.

Not life per se, somewhere else; that's no problem. But more advanced life coming here now--different issue.

You're right, and I wasn't precise in what I was saying. I did meant ET's visiting now, and not just that some form of life exists somewhere else.

Oh, we've evolved but not sufficiently for the public to be really ready. The phenomenon remains pretty much in the background.

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one. I don't know that we would ever be "really ready" but I also don't think that if ET landed it would lead to large-scale chaos.

 

[trainedobserver]

Crash retrieval cases. You'd think that, even if just one were real--and a new book says even Aztec was--they'd have some definite answers by now.

That is possible. It is also possible that its like David Adair's story; the government may have something but can't make heads or tails of it. I could see where something like that might serve as an inspiration but the likelihood of actually back-engineering it seems remote.

There is probably some value in having your enemies and allies believe you have such a thing in your possession, whether you do or not and whether you could really get anything out of it or not.