Attack on Christianity? and other concepts I have a problem with.

[Jeff Crowell]

During the May 17th listener round table, a story was related in which a UFO was witness, in broad daylight, over an open field. The witness attempted to point the object out to cars passing by but stated that these cars, though they slowed down and looked, then drove on past as if the object was not there. The witness' potential explanation? the strong desire of disbelief, so powerful that the other "refused" to accept what they were seeing, even though it was right there in front of them.

Now, being a born and raised Lutheran, I have a little problem with this. Let me also say that the proof of the existence of UFO's or ghosts (I'm primarily a ghost hunter) would not shake the foundries of my religious believes at all. To me, the supernatural is outside the realm of our existence, or anything that touches our existence, at all. That said, I think it's ridiculous to sit here and say that "Christians would turn away and simply refuse this "truth" if UFO's were to reveal themselves to them." Bottom line is if I see it, if it truly is real, if I witness it, I'm not going to shield my eyes and run the other way, citing the Bible in a panic. Sure, there are some Christians who may, but as a Christian I feel the need to defend my faith and confirm the fact I am very open minded to either a ghostly or alien encounter. Just please, keep that in mind, not all of us Christians are quite that stupid or blind, closed mined, or judgmental these days. Some of us really are searching for the truth, too.

<i> end rant </i>

 

[dyingsun]

I was born into a lutherian family, I don't go to church nor practice this 'bestowed upon' me religion, nor do I denounce it. "Attack on Christianity?"...I'm sorry, but the thread title alone made me shudder.
The episode you mentioned was labelled as a 'listener roundtable' and I for one enjoyed it for what it was.I didn't feel offended at all, maybe because I can differentiate a bit and actually try to grasp the concept behind the statements made.

Sorry for my rather bad english & 'happy ghost hunting'

 

[Xylo]

I don't really see the connection that you are making. Maybe that's just me.

What I gleaned from that part of the discussion was that people have a set of knowns, and when something from outside of that set of knowns is seen or experienced, people try to classify the unknown in terms of the known. And some people are unable to even consider that which is unknown.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense...

I think it's more of an attack on the human drive to classify reality than it is upon christianity. <shrug>

 

[CapnG]

I think you'll find that when the term "christians" is used on this board (and indeed on the show) it refers almost exclusively to evangelicals and other fundamentalists and not the broad realm of denominations that infact make up the majority of christians.

The problem is these people shout the loudest and longest, shoving more sensible people who are both christian and intelligent off to one side in their fervour to dismiss, denounce and make otherwise declarative statements about things they really have no business commenting on, let alone discussing.

 

[Experiencer7]

Lock and load! http://open.salon.com/files/jesus-machine-gun1242140842.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/repjesus19.gif

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/jesuswithriflethumb.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/Jesusbomb.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/cartoon-jesus.jpg

 

[inuk2600]

Sandandfire, don't worry, we won't show up at your doorstep late at night sporting pitchforks and scythes.
All religions could use a good dose of scrutiny, not just Christianity.

There's lots of scrutiny popping up out there on the web...

- The Four Horsemen (Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchins)
- John Loftus (former Christian Apologist)
- non stamp collector (amazing series on youtube)
- thunderf00t (great material on youtube - watch him hand venomfangx his own ass)

 

[kipspritely]

people who are both christian and intelligent

How about christian and critical thinker? I am sorry but I am not willing to overlook the bit about a belief with no evidence. It is not wrong to criticize these beliefs. I assure you irrational belief will not be limited to religion in Catholics, Lutherans, etc.

 

[methshin]

did you catch the reference that the native americans could not see the boats coming from Europe until they were on the shore? I think that's what they were trying to get across, that when people cannot fathom what is happening, they may not be able to see it even if it is right in front of them.

 

[mikec]

I have heard the "Natives can't see the boat" story a lot, but I'm not sure if it's true. It sounds like a sort of modern folklore.

But I get the implication.

Christian is a really "wide" term that encompasses a LOT. It's like saying "westerner"

Remember, there were lots of pastors in minnesota giving refuge to Nicaraguan refugees in the 1980's. And, those nazi tanks all had crosses painted on them. A complex soup of good and bad.

I read the new testament a few years ago, and I was really impressed. That Jesus guy was really mystical, and preached unconditional love, forgiveness and spiritual transformation. Not much of that shows up in our culture, even though there are churches on every corner.

Feel free to use the term Christian all you want, but stick a few adjectives in front sometimes, like:

Creepy Dogmatic Christian
Compassionate Forgiving Christian
Fanatical Zealot Christian
Loving Tolerant Christian
Fundamentalist Weirdo Christian
Decent Bighearted Christian
etc...

 

[subject x]

I have heard the "Natives can't see the boat" story a lot, but I'm not sure if it's true. It sounds like a sort of modern folklore.

Yeah, I'm not buying that story at all.

If you don't know what something you see is, you still see it.
I can't even wrap my head around the concept of not being able to see what you don't understand.

 

[dad2059]

I have heard the "Natives can't see the boat" story a lot, but I'm not sure if it's true. It sounds like a sort of modern folklore.

Yeah, that story has no cred what so ever, the North and South Amerinds knew what boats were, they used them all the time in river travel.

They were more amazed about the Spanish' white skin and noise sticks that killed at a distance.

But that doesn't mean some didn't have 'willful ignorance' about what was happening to them, it can and does happen today.

 

[methshin]

Yeah, that story has no cred what so ever, the North and South Amerinds knew what boats were, they used them all the time in river travel.

They were more amazed about the Spanish' white skin and noise sticks that killed at a distance.

But that doesn't mean some didn't have 'willful ignorance' about what was happening to them, it can and does happen today.

I wasn't there, so I can't really say, but there are many claims to this being true and I was just referencing it as a counterpoint to the original post.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

What you heard was not an attack on Christianity. If that's what you're after, read Nietzsche's "The AntiChrist." No one has done it better and more convincingly.

 

[Schuyler]

I have heard the "Natives can't see the boat" story a lot, but I'm not sure if it's true. It sounds like a sort of modern folklore.

I'm the one who brought that up and as I said at the time, "I don't know how they would know." When you hear the story you wonder who could possibly have reported it. Did a crew member instantly learn the local language at which point the shaman confided in him, then he passed it down through the centuries? When you attempt to parse it out, it makes no sense. So I take it as apocryphal, but it still has a point. The Carlos Castaneda 'Don Juan' books often made the same kind of points with regards to our perception of reality. And someone on here has a sig line that says: We see things not as they are, but as we are - Anais Nin. I think we were all just trying to grapple with the observation that people don't always see what is going on and how that could come about.

 

[methshin]

I'm the one who brought that up and as I said at the time, "I don't know how they would know." When you hear the story you wonder who could possibly have reported it. Did a crew member instantly learn the local language at which point the shaman confided in him, then he passed it down through the centuries? When you attempt to parse it out, it makes no sense. So I take it as apocryphal, but it still has a point. The Carlos Castaneda 'Don Juan' books often made the same kind of points with regards to our perception of reality. And someone on here has a sig line that says: We see things not as they are, but as we are - Anais Nin. I think we were all just trying to grapple with the observation that people don't always see what is going on and how that could come about.

There ya go. I had heard the reference before, but you definatly refreshed my memory when you said it on the roundtable. Great job, btw. One of my favorite episodes, glad they asked you to do it and I hope they bring you back on again.

 

[dusty]

Yeah, I'm not buying that story at all.

If you don't know what something you see is, you still see it.
I can't even wrap my head around the concept of not being able to see what you don't understand.

I know what you mean subject x, and your thoughts immediately got me wondering about other possible present day anomolies that might fit that description, besides of course UFO's, or just for a change UAP's.

There is more to be done to make clear to everyone the subtle distinction between those two acronyms for instance.
I'm referring of course to the ridiculous chant of crap like, "little green men" from the mass media and all the usual nonsense normally associated with the former. Ultimately closing down most peoples minds to such a degree, that I can see what Schuyler had to say about those Indians, might in some way also apply to Dark Matter.

When science eventually gets a handle on that, maybe we could develop ways to see and hopefully understand all sorts of things.
I know I'm digressing a bit, but perhaps like the whole one hundred monkey thing, given time, technology and most importantly wisdom and not dogma. We might all see those ships come in.

Peace,

Mark

 

[methshin]

It could also be a tangent of how humans see faces and images in things that aren't actually there. Food for thought.

 

[tyder001]

Lock and load! http://open.salon.com/files/jesus-machine-gun1242140842.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/repjesus19.gif

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/jesuswithriflethumb.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/Jesusbomb.jpg

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/wp-content/cartoon-jesus.jpg

I don't know about "Lock and Load" if you mean an attack. This is the truth about how some of us "liberal" Christians see the perversion of Christ by the religious right. So, I didn't see your links as an attack more of an "eye opener" to those of us who still respect the Prince of Peace. Thanks for the links.

 

[CapnG]

I have heard the "Natives can't see the boat" story a lot, but I'm not sure if it's true. It sounds like a sort of modern folklore.

Anyone ever think the explaination for that could be much simpler than something mystical? Maybe it's misty, there's a haze on the sea, the sails on the boats are mostly white so they blend in to the horizon, etc, etc. It could be a perfectly true account and yet have everything to do with the diffusion of light and nothing to do with beliefs.

Just a thought.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

Well,l after this week's podcast episode, this message thread is a little ironic, isn't it? I feel a bit sheepish about it, almost "prophetic" in that I posted it JUST before the podcast aired? Huh? HUH??!!

Anywho, I certainly agree with 99.9% of the posts replied to my thread. In fact, I'm happy at the respect I've received from a somewhat controversial thread. I do agree that religion as a whole has serious problems, regardless of denomination or belief system. David's right when he marks all the atrocities performed against mankind in the name of "peaceful" religions, and 9/11 is just one of countless. Organized religion should be kept in check. It should be carefully watched, and always remember when regarding organized religion, it is still ran by human beings. It will fail you, it will have faults, it will be corrupted. Just don't let that mar the entire concept of the religion behind the purposes. Our belief systems, sometimes, are simply too good for human beings to live up to, including those who "lead" them.

Regarding this weeks episode; I have to say that I felt Marzulli went toe-to-toe with Gene and David pretty well. He stuck to his guns and presented his viewpoint about the origin of the UFO phenomena. As a Christian, I can see where he's coming from.
That said, Marzulli was Bible-thumping. He was, indeed, trying to impress his view on Gene and David. He was attempting to inspire Christianity and it's views toward the UFO phenomena. He did distance himself from organized religion because he understands the taint that is associated with organized religion these days, and that people immediately turn off and become defensive when dealing with organized religion, but he still Bible-thumped. Should he have done that? Perhaps not in the manner he did, I believe you can express your opinion's and thoughts by toeing a line but yes, there were a few times where Marzulli crossed the line. Okay, there may have been many times where he crossed the line during the podcast.

In the end I don't believe that aliens = demons/angels. I believe they are a separate form of life, extraterrestrial or extradimensional, either. I believe the supernatural exists outside the paranormal, so I do not share Marzulli's stance, as a paranormal researcher, nor as a Christian.

My 2 cents.