Matthew Williams, Circlemaker

[Muadib]

That just sounds like a bit of soft or curiousity-news to me. I think teachers get many questions about current events that the kids can't quite grasp, and perhaps the editors thought this was a 'hot topic'. It sounds very innocent to me.

I could probably agree with that if it wasn't the cover story and if the newsletter contained that type of thing other than on this one occasion, perhaps later issues did but I got this thing for 5 straight years in elementary school and never was anything similar ever covered, not before and not after, at least not that I can remember. It's always possible that I've simply forgotten it over the years. I've just always thought of it as an interesting anecdote and like I said in the post, I'm not given to conspiracy thinking and I honestly don't think there was some crop circle conspiracy, it was just weird, that's all.

 

[Muadib]

The Milk Hill UFO Footage

I'd be interested in hearing what @pixelsmith has to say about this video, given his expertise in photography. I wonder if he's ever seen a similar effect while photographing a bird.

 

[Muadib]

Again, I ask you, what specific information do have to back up your accusations? Did you just throw it out there, just to stir the pot, without anything substantial to back it up? You accuse the man of being MI5 and you can't give one single specific detail about what evidence is there to prove that, so it seems to me that you refer to pure speculation and hearsay.

I have to agree with Jimi on this one, you can't just accuse the man of being a government disinformation agent and then tell us all to go read a book to get filled in, if you make that kind of accusation you need to back it up with facts, otherwise why should we take it seriously? Is everyone who disagrees with you a disinfo agent, or just Matthew?

 

[trainedobserver]

I knew this was coming, he, I should have stated that there are situations where society accepts kinds of vandalism, and civil disobedience is an example of such.

No, but from the way people interact with crop circles, and use them to advance a cause, for instance a New Age quasi-religious cause. And therein lies the potential enlightenment project. That is what I have been trying to say several times here and in the Colin Andrews thread.

Overall I agree that the indifference to the farmers' crops doesn't speak to the circlemakers' honor, I'm simply saying there's more to it than pure vandalism. If the intention is there. I know the intention is there for some of the makers. It's on their website.

WE are their project.

Maybe this is a side issue, but I can't think of an example of "civil disobedience" that involves vandalism. Civil disobedience is usually nonviolent resistance or the ignoring of particular laws. When those activities infringe on the rights of others (such as the right to not have your property damaged) a crime is committed de-legitimizing the effort. I can't think of a society that "accepts" criminal acts as civil disobedience. Making innocents or third-parties victims of crimes does nothing to advance a cause. Am I thinking about this wrong?

If the intent is some New-Age quasi-religious enlightenment project then my comments about the religious aspects of the circle scene were too watered down. What you have then is a social experiment (mind control) being conducted by amateurs that takes on many cult-like characteristics.

 

[trainedobserver]

I'm of the opinion the video doesn't show anything that strange. I think Jimi is right, it is a bird and the camera or compression makes the white plumage wash out. This is the kind of thing you get into when you attribute high strangeness to a bunch of trampled plants.

 

[Muadib]

I'm of the opinion the video doesn't show anything that strange. I think Jimi is right, it is a bird and the camera or compression makes the white plumage wash out. This is the kind of thing you get into when you attribute high strangeness to a bunch of trampled plants.

You guys are probably right, like I said I don't think I have the expertise to make that call. I will say this, I think it's far more likely that it's a bird rather than a UFO or an "encapsulated soul form" (whatever the hell that is) as Colin Andrews has stated.

Still, if you go that route then you have to recognize that these two are intentionally hoaxing us and hamming it up for the camera, as the woman in the video talks like she's observing the same object with her own two eyes, which if she's being truthful, and it's always a possibility in the paranormal realm that she's not, would seem to eliminate a video artifact.

 

[Jimi H.]

Maybe this is a side issue, but I can't think of an example of "civil disobedience" that involves vandalism. Civil disobedience is usually nonviolent resistance or the ignoring of particular laws. When those activities infringe on the rights of others (such as the right to not have your property damaged) a crime is committed de-legitimizing the effort. I can't think of a society that "accepts" criminal acts as civil disobedience. Making innocents or third-parties victims of crimes does nothing to advance a cause. Am I thinking about this wrong?

If the intent is some New-Age quasi-religious enlightenment project then my comments about the religious aspects of the circle scene were too watered down. What you have then is a social experiment (mind control) being conducted by amateurs that takes on many cult-like characteristics.

Well, tbh. I think my fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking when I took 'civil disobedience' as a hostage in this discussion. I think it was a bad example on my part.

But wrt to civil disobedience in general, I think it's easy to find examples of times when civil disobedience cost society money, because typically some form of obstruction is employed. When you obstruct a road, it likely also costs innocent people money, for instance businesses that need to transport goods. For instance, the French farmers are excellent at pouring rotten tomatoes into the streets and obstructing commercial traffic. Is rotten tomatoes vandalism? In some cases, yea, I think so.

When it comes to direct actions against private entities, or rather businesses, the term civil disobedience doesn't apply directly, but that's actually what flashed through my mind when I wrote my post. So, when Greenpeace manage to close down a polluting plant, or an oil drilling operation, they are costing the company money. When they paint slogans etc on walls they are also costing them money, on purpose.
But in that case, we're in 'direct action' territory, not civil disobedience. There is a grey area however, for instance when protesters halt the creation of government logging roads to hurt private logging.

 

[Muadib]

I just wanted to say that after watching the video again, I do see the part with the tractor (not sure how I missed it, in my defense it was early in the morning and I hadn't fully woken up yet) but it's really not very impressive. The tractor stops for all of two seconds, it's far more likely that the farmer driving it simply stopped the vehicle rather than it being some kind of paranormal occurrence. Also, why isn't this farmer who supposedly remembers this ball of light stopping his tractor named in the article or interviewed on the video? Wouldn't even the most novice of investigators want to document this supposedly very strange event and get as much corroboration on the record as possible? At best it's some piss poor investigation and at worst it's just plain garbage added to the story after the fact.

 

[manxman]

Here's the clip posted on Steve Alexander's website, with the text he wrote when he released it on youtube 20 years after he took the footage. Other videos of BOLs have been obtained in Wiltshire fields and in crop circles in recent years by visitors to crop circles. If I can locate them I'll post them as well.



The Milk Hill UFO Footage

That's quite interesting, but quickly recognisable, what have the debunker's come up with please.



It is a pair of barn owl's,, working the hedgerows in what essentially is a wind tunnel landscape, he follows one, which lands in/on flattened patches of crop checking them out, then wind hopping to the next, he pans back looking for the other, its gone, so he pans back, the owl now rise's higher and moves off away out of sight, thats because it sees the 2 blokes, who have been walking down the track to the circle, the last 2 mins were the owl spotting/hearing them watching them, and distancing itself from them, because when he pans back those blokes are in the circle, first bird that was working the circle field, had long gone.

The tractor stuff is just nonsense, without it he has nothing.

 

[pixelsmith]

I'd be interested in hearing what @pixelsmith has to say about this video, given his expertise in photography. I wonder if he's ever seen a similar effect while photographing a bird.

I only looked at the video once so far. I am not sure what to think. I have photographed birds that reflected light a little like that but not with the bright flashes or one that hovered like that.

 

[Muadib]

I only looked at the video once so far. I am not sure what to think. I have photographed birds that reflected light a little like that but not with the bright flashes or one that hovered like that.

Thanks for checking it out, it definitely seems too bright and reflective to be a bird, but I'm no video analyst. I'll defer to the experts on this one as to what it is, let us know if you figure out anything else if you get the chance to watch it some more.

 

[pixelsmith]

Thanks for checking it out, it definitely seems too bright and reflective to be a bird, but I'm no video analyst. I'll defer to the experts on this one as to what it is, let us know if you figure out anything else if you get the chance to watch it some more.

I plan on watching it a few more times. This is my busy time of year so customers come first for awhile. I do NOT think it is a bird. I do think it could be fake but it has somewhat of a natural movement about it...

 

[Muadib]

I plan on watching it a few more times. This is my busy time of year so customers come first for awhile. I do NOT think it is a bird. I do think it could be fake but it has somewhat of a natural movement about it...

Any idea why the screen keeps flashing green throughout the video? Is that typical of certain video cameras? It definitely struck me as odd.

 

[pixelsmith]

Any idea why the screen keeps flashing green throughout the video? Is that typical of certain video cameras? It definitely struck me as odd.

I was wondering that too. I wonder if the camera was on auto white balance or something.

 

[trainedobserver]

My conclusion about crop circles are that they are nothing but a distraction and have no direct connection with UFOs or the paranormal. Produced by human artists for a variety of reasons, a complex subculture and industry has formed around them based on a misinterpretation of their origins and significance that renders much of what comes out of that subculture meaningless except as cautionary tales.

 

[pixelsmith]

My conclusion about crop circles are that they are nothing but a distraction and have no direct connection with UFOs or the paranormal. Produced by human artists for a variety of reasons, a complex subculture and industry has formed around them based on a misinterpretation of their origins and significance that renders much of what comes out of that subculture meaningless except as cautionary tales.

I very much agree. I found this video interesting because it didn't focus much on the crop circle... in the end the object is another light in the sky.

 

[manxman]

be interested in your analysis, i thought it was 2 farm/barn pigeons/doves at first, ive watched it again and i take bets its an owl facing into the wind holding station above the flattened barley/wheat looking/listing for vole/field mice, camera is looking down at it, when it gets upto eye-level its hardly visible, the sun is above a behind the camera and the birds..

Their wings are silent, thats how they hunt, could be 2 feet above and behind a mouse and it wouldnt even know it was there, but the owl would know the mouse was even if it was hidden under 2niches of stalks in one of its many 'runs'.

Ive been decoying pigeon and crow more times than i can count, had many an owl hover over the deeks a second or 2, and watched them hunting the barley stubble im decoying..

 

[trainedobserver]

Interesting, I wonder if we could find similar footage that we know is of birds causing the same type of effect. Seems totally plausible to me but I'm not willing to state that I know for certain it's a bird, I don't believe I have the expertise to make that call.

Is there anything about the flight of that object that would eliminate a bird? I think we even hear someone say, "Its a bird." at one point.

 

[Muadib]

Is there anything about the flight of that object that would eliminate a bird? I think we even hear someone say, "Its a bird." at one point.

I'm probably the wrong guy to ask, I thought Pixel made a good point when he said that the object/bird looks like its hovering, birds do hover briefly but not for long periods of time, at least not that I'm aware of, but I'm no more an expert on the flight patterns of birds than I am a video analyst.

The guy in the video does say "Is that a bird" and his female companion responds "What, a shiny bird?" at one point in the video, as if the object was so reflective that she couldn't see how it would be a bird. He also says something like "A balloon" near the end of the video but they don't continue the conversation past that, which also struck me as strange.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I'm not sure if I remember another thread, post-show that has generated this number of posts quite so quickly. Obviously a powerful show for those on both sides of the 'field'