Substrate-independent minds

[tyder001]

You are right about the last point my friend. I honestly try to be civil with people. I can't say I never slip because I do. But, when it comes to cursing people and cutting and pasting crap just to get at somebody, I hope I don't do that. It's funny because some of the same folks who give creedence to aliens floating people through walls and building the pryamids and sending thoughts through the air from ships, are the same folks that pooh pooh faith and belief in a higher purpose to life. It's hard for me to take you seriously when you curse somebody for being religious and then tell a tale of aliens in the night then pile myth after myth as "scientifically thought out."

There is no "one entity" that answers to the name of science...Tyder (stolen from a book)

Everybody heaps teachers to their own ears....The Bible.

Donuts, is there anything they can't do? ....Homer Simpson.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

That's why I don't believe in any of the things you mentioned - if anything, at least I'm consistent.

 

[mike]

I wonder what a forum would be like where the ideas were the main focus instead of the personalities espousing them?

The whole beyond the biological argument boils down to this for me. You are supposedly taking information (the consciousness) from a human being by some extraction method and copying it to another medium of some sort like a positronic brain or something. Even if it were perfect the best you would have is a manufactured copy of the original. It would not be anything like the original in anything but the most abstract sense of the word. Will humanity manufacture artificial replacements for themselves that mimic human beings to the extent that some believe that some sort of immortality can be obtained by such means? It's a chilling thought and not something I would look forward to occurring.

Its a valid philosophical question.

Its one i have asked myself about star treks transporter (hypothetically of course)
Someone stands on the transporter pad, the system scans them at a molecular level and transfers the pattern/template into the transporter buffer.
At the destination molecules are re assembled as per the template stored in the buffer.

Did the person get transported ? or does a copy now exist where the original was de molecularised ?

Is it the same person ?

Koene makes this point

And for Koene it is very much "you", there being a "continuity of self" in the same way that "the person you are today is still the same person you were when you were age five".

Its true that the bioplatform that carrys "me" is different to the one i had when i was five, and im still me.

Heres another example, a man is rendered unconcious by anaesthetic and has a full face transplant
First US full face transplant

Is he still him ?

Of course he is, even though hes had a very large part of his biology replaced.

For me the philosophical question is answered via perspective.
From the pov of the source being copied, the copy is indeed a copy, but from the pov of the target it will feel like transfer, no different to coming out of a general anaesthetic, you regain conciousness with all your memorys intact just as you did before you went under.
It would feel like transfer from that pov, to family and friends you would be the same person, just as you are the same person after coming out of a general anaesthetic.
You would remember your 5th birthday, your mothers maiden name. The kindly if slightly butch bus driver who drove your school bus.

Imagine this scenario, close to the point of physical death, you are put under a general anaesthetic, to minimise the background "noise" of sensory input and establish a conciousness bookmark. The contents of your memory is copied perfectly to a new host, and your old body is euthanised.
From the pov of the target it would feel no different than having a general anaesthetic for surgery and waking up afterwards.

Is the target "you"..... well it will think so.
From the pov of the target it will "feel" like transfer not copy

 

[trainedobserver]

Here is another gotcha I see in the scenario: By agreeing to have a perfect copy of my mind transferred to some renewable artificial body, would I be consigning this manufactured creature to a synthetic hell?

One of the appeals of the eternal life promised by my former Christian faith was the notion that I would be perfected both in character and in body in eternity. Without this characteristic immortality can just be a continuation of the misery and suffering of the human condition.

Could I knowingly sentence some artificial human to an eternity of being me, wretched creature that I am? I couldn't do it. It would be Inhuman! [staggers back from the keyboard in mock horror]

 

[mike]

I dont see why it wouldnt be possible to make improvements in the engineered platform, it would be engineered after all, Its all relative too i guess, would stephen hawking consider it hell to be transfered to a properly functioning bioform ?
In addition you could add some grayware, pre loaded software that index's the memory data for perfect recall, and other useful neuro patterns

CONCLUSION: It may someday be possible to use brain technology to learn to play the piano, reduce mental stress, or even master kung fu with little or no conscious effort. Lead author and BU neuroscientist Takeo Watanabe says in a statement:

Study of the Day: Soon, You May Download New Skills to Your Brain - Hans Villarica - Health - The Atlantic

All your memories, transfered so seamlessly you have a real sense on continuity of self, and the ability to tap dance like shirley temple......

We used to think that brain cells grew as we developed, leveling off at some point in our adulthood, and then declining as we aged. That notion was recently replaced with the realization that brain cells are continually changing, growing new dendrites and receptors, and creating new synapses.

Thus it may already be that "you" is in fact already a "copy" of older synaptic patterns laid down in the past
Cognition and Memory Newsletter from Women's International Pharmacy

 

[Voyager]

I dont see why it wouldnt be possible to make improvements in the engineered platform, it would be engineered after all, Its all relative too i guess, would stephen hawking consider it hell to be transfered to a properly functioning bioform ?
In addition you could add some grayware, pre loaded software that index's the memory data for perfect recall, and other useful neuro patterns



Study of the Day: Soon, You May Download New Skills to Your Brain - Hans Villarica - Health - The Atlantic

All your memories, transfered so seamlessly you have a real sense on continuity of self, and the ability to tap dance like shirley temple......



Thus it may already be that "you" is in fact already a "copy" of older synaptic patterns laid down in the past
Cognition and Memory Newsletter from Women's International Pharmacy

Here is a video for you Mike:

 

[mike]

That seems to be a fairly negative view of transhumansim, but in reality transhumanism as defined in the vid, has been going on since the dawn of our species, the intrinsic difference here is a change from random environmental induced evolution, and engineered evolution.

In the second scenario we actually have control over the process, wether thats a good thing or bad depends on the eye of the beholder, milage will vary.

Heres a scenario to ponder,
Your wife of 50 years is on her death bed, you are offered a process whereby her persona can be transfered to a new biovessel.
She will be able to remember your life together, your wedding day, what you gave her for aniversarys, all the same details your wife now recalls.
But more importantly, from the perspective of the new version she feels a very real sense of continuity of self. from her POV she feels no different to when she woke up after a hip replacement surgery 5 years prior.
The sense of continuity of self is identical
At the end of the process you cant tell the difference, and neither can she...................

Do you accept the offer, or lose those memories forever ?

 

[Voyager]

That seems to be a fairly negative view of transhumansim, but in reality transhumanism as defined in the vid, has been going on since the dawn of our species, the intrinsic difference here is a change from random environmental induced evolution, and engineered evolution.

In the second scenario we actually have control over the process, wether thats a good thing or bad depends on the eye of the beholder, milage will vary.

Heres a scenario to ponder,
Your wife of 50 years is on her death bed, you are offered a process whereby her persona can be transfered to a new biovessel.
She will be able to remember your life together, your wedding day, what you gave her for aniversarys, all the same details your wife now recalls.
But more importantly, from the perspective of the new version she feels a very real sense of continuity of self. from her POV she feels no different to when she woke up after a hip replacement surgery 5 years prior.
The sense of continuity of self is identical
At the end of the process you cant tell the difference, and neither can she...................

Do you accept the offer, or lose those memories forever ?

That would depend on whether or not you loved her. Wouldn't it be simpler to rejuvenate the bodies we have? Or grow replacement bodies?

 

[mike]

Well that is one of the proposals

According to Ian Pearson, a British futurist, death will be a thing of the past by 2050.

Pearson is one of many futurists, cybernetic experts and artificial intelligence researchers whose thoughts are converging on the same basic idea: Why not upload everything that's in the brain—everything that makes a person who they are—into a computer and then download it again into a new body?

He wants the real thing, and so does scientist Anders Sandberg. A member of the new transhuman movement (beyond human), Sandberg believes uploading minds and downloading them again into new bodies is a technology that's imminent. He believes it will happen because of Mankind's desire to overcome aging and death

But of course the temptation to optimise those bodies will also come into play.
Why transfer to a standard body which only lasts 80 odd years, why not a GELF

G.E.L.F. or simply GELF is an acronym for Genetically Engineered LifeForm

Thats been engineered to last a couple of hundred years, engineered to be immune from common diseases and other biological problems like arthritis etc.
Want one that can see in the dark ?
Can get all its daily energy requirements from a few minutes in the sun instead of having to eat 3 times a day ?

The possibilitys are endless

 

[mike]

A Brain-Recording Device That Melts Into Place

ScienceDaily (Apr. 18, 2010) — Scientists have developed a brain implant that essentially melts into place, snugly fitting to the brain's surface.

A brain-recording device that melts into place

 

[Voyager]

Well that is one of the proposals



But of course the temptation to optimise those bodies will also come into play.
Why transfer to a standard body which only lasts 80 odd years, why not a GELF

G.E.L.F. or simply GELF is an acronym for Genetically Engineered LifeForm

Thats been engineered to last a couple of hundred years, engineered to be immune from common diseases and other biological problems like arthritis etc.
Want one that can see in the dark ?
Can get all its daily energy requirements from a few minutes in the sun instead of having to eat 3 times a day ?

The possibilitys are endless

I'm all for a new and improved model. All of this brings to mind the question as to the true nature of the beings associated with UFOs. Are they creatures that evolved naturally, or did they engineer themselves into what they are. What are the creative force, or forces of nature capable of creating? It's a mysterious Universe, and it is arrogant to think we truly understand the reality of existence.

 

[mike]

As ive said before there are aspects of the reported narrative, that hint at the possibility they are engineered entitys.

And if Paul Davies is correct

"I think it very likely -in fact inevitable-that biological intelligence is only a transitory phenomenon, a fleeting phase in the evolution of intelligence in the universe."

Paul Davies -acclaimed physicist, cosmologist, and astrobiologist at Arizona State University."​

Its not just logical, but perhaps even likely the vast bulk of sentience in the universe has transitioned up from the biological phase.

Many of the scientists who think this is possible also say its not that far away, certainly closer as technologys go than FTL star travel.

Thus its not hard to imagine that a timeline that sees humanity traveling to other worlds, will be a post biological humanity.

Perhaps thats the typical model.

 

[Voyager]

It is plausible. Seeing how this is probably the last decade for me; I don't have that option. I am looking to go through a metamorphosis now.

 

[tyder001]

Ahhh, yes, utopia. I gotta tell you this will go the way of suspended animation and the Edsel.

 

[tyder001]

On the other hand these guys agree with me. They are certainly not religious or deist. They do make some good points. Such as: Sadly, a lot of the underpinnings of transhumanism are based on a sort of blind-men-at-the-elephant thinking -- people assuming that because it can be imagined, it must be possible. Transhumanism is particularly associated with figures in computer science, which is a field that is in some ways more math and art than a true experimental science; as a result, a great many transhumanists tend to conflate technological advancement with scientific advancement; though these two things are intimately related, they are separate things.

In July, 2009, Stephen Hawking came out as a proponent of transhumanism,[4] which of course means we must all bow down and accept the concept as fact, being as we are devout atheists.

Worst of all, some transhumanists outright ignore what people in the fields they're interested in tell them; a few AI boosters, for example, believe that neurobiology is an outdated science because AI researchers can do it themselves anyway. Debates with such people can take on the wearying feel of a debate with a creationist or climate change denialist, as such people will stick to their positions no matter what

though a true AI may in fact be possible, there simply is not enough known about the brain to understand its functions to the degree necessary to create a workable emulation, meaning a prediction of such a creation is meaningless at best, dishonest at worst.[5] In fact, though transhumanists strenuously deny it, a great number of their arguments are strongly faith-based -- they assume because there are no known barriers to their pet development, that it's inevitably going to happen. Seldom is the issue of unknowns -- known or otherwise -- factored into the predictions.

The whole article is here:
Transhumanism - RationalWiki

 

[mike]

There will always be those that say a thing cant be done, all ways have been always will

Some classic examples

"Rail travel at high speed is not possible, because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia," said this professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy, University College London (1793-1859).​

​

In fact, Dr Lardner seems to have been cynical about all new forms of transport, saying: "Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean."​

Of course we now have high speed rail that goes 500 KPH, have been to the moon, and used steam to navigate the north atlantic

In 1894, the president of the Royal Society, William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, predicted that heavier-than-air flying machines were impossible

LOL a 747 would blow his mind

In 1894, the president of the Royal Society, William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, predicted that radio had no future.

in the British parliament it was mentioned there was no need for telephones because “we have enough messengers here.” Western Union believed that it could never replace the telegraph. In 1876, an internal memo read: “This telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.”

In 1943, Thomas Watson, the chairman of IBM forecast a world market for “maybe only five computers.” Years before IBM launched the personal computer in 1981, Xerox had already successfully designed and used PCs internally… but decided to concentrate on the production of photocopiers. Even Ken Olson, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, said in 1977, “There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.”

The one above speaks for itself in this format

Perhaps the guy who got it wrong most was the commissioner of the US Office of Patents: in 1899, Charles H. Duell, assured President McKinley that “everything that can be invented has been invented.”

NOW, Note the word successfully in this link...........................

Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another « mindcomputers

Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another

Scientists working at the University of Southern California, home of the Department of Homeland Security’s National Center for Risk and Economic Analysis of Terrorism Events, have created an artificial memory system that allows thoughts, memories and learned behavior to be transferred from one brain to another.

As of this year 2012, this is science fact

 

[Kim323]

Interesting research indeed, especially as it may promise help for people with paralysis, parkinson's, and a host of other misfortunes, a couple of which I have personal knowledge of from my own family.

Some additional research beyond that link is needed to get the full details of what the scientists at USC actually did with this implant, as the site the link takes you to is rather melodramatic with its mind control and allusions to one of my favorite authors, George Orwell. I certainly don't remember the thought police as being portrayed quite that way, which makes me wonder if whoever wrote the article actually read his 1984.

And I still maintain that, though I applaud any research that is done to help those in need, an actual implant that can fully mimic the actual detailed sophistication of the brain at the really micro level is far, far, far in the future.

I did some more research on the lead scientist who did this at USC, and, again, I encourage more looking into the experiment's actual details to get a fuller picture. Also, he's made some interesting comments about the possible fruits of his work that sort of chilled me.

A scientist at Georgia tech has some contrary views as to whether this research can in the near future get anywhere near actually encoding the sophistication of that wonderful organ nestled in our skulls.

An interesting link that intrigued me enough to look further. I didn't know of this experiment until it was posted here, and am grateful for the lead. The only drawback for me was a personal reaction to the actual details of the experiment and what the lead scientist has said what might come of it, sort of macabre. And the funding is interesting. And similar research at duke university has some interesting funding, too. Not trying to sound tantalizing, but the link did open up some interesting details. Kim

 

[Voyager]

There will always be those that say a thing cant be done, all ways have been always will

Some classic examples



Of course we now have high speed rail that goes 500 KPH, have been to the moon, and used steam to navigate the north atlantic



LOL a 747 would blow his mind








The one above speaks for itself in this format



NOW, Note the word successfully in this link...........................

Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another « mindcomputers



As of this year 2012, this is science fact

Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another « mindcomputers

So the article claims:
Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another.

Sounds like B. S. to me.

 

[mike]

So the article claims:
Scientists Successfully Implant Chip That Controls The Brain; Allowing Thoughts, Memory And Behavior To Be Transferred From One Brain To Another.

Sounds like B. S. to me.

Thats OK, so do your posts and pictures of what you "claim" to see

But unlike your BS

This has been published in the Journal of neural engineering

Journal of Neural Engineering - IOPscience

You could also contact Dr Berger

Theodore W. Berger | PIBBS

The research of Dr. T.W. Berger involves the complementary use of experimental and theoretical approaches to developing biologically constrained mathematical models of mammalian neural systems. The focus of the majority of currentresearch is the hippocampus, a neural system essential for learning and memory functions. The goal of this research is to address three general issues: (1) the relation between cellular/molecular processes, systems-level functions, and learned behavior; (2) the extent of which the functional dynamics of neural systems are altered by activity-dependent synaptic plasticity; (3) the extent to which the essential functions of a neural system can be incorporated within a hardware representation (e.g., VLSI circuitry).

Experimental studies involve the use of extracellular, intracellular, and whole-cell electrophysiological recording techniques, applied in vivo using anesthetized and chronically implanted animals, and in vitro using hippocampal slice preparations. A number of neurobiological issues are being investigated, including: (1) quantifying the signal processing capabilities of hippocampal neurons and the extent to which these capabilities reflect regulation due to feedforward and feedback circuitry vs. intrinsic neuronal mechanisms, such as voltage-dependent conductances or second messenger biochemical systems; (2) the spatio-temporal distribution of activity in neural networks and its dependence on input pattern and network connectivity; (3) the cellular mechanisms underlying changes in the strength of connections among neurons, i.e., synaptic plasticity, and the influence of synaptic plasticity on signal processing characteristics of neurons and the spatio-temporal distributions of activity in networks.

These and other experimental studies are used in conjunction with several different theoretical approaches to develop models of: (1) the nonlinear, input/output properties of single hippocampal neurons and circuits composed of several populations of hippocampal neurons (in collaboration with Dr. V. Marmarelis, Biomedical Engineering, USC), (2) the hierarchical relationship between synaptic and neuronal events (in collaboration with Dr. G. Chauvet, Institute for Theoretical Biology, University of Angers, France), (3) the kinetic properties of glutamatergic receptor subtypes, and (4) adaptive properties expressed by the "hippocampal-like" neural networks implemented with analog VLSI technology (in collaboration with Dr. B. Sheu, Electrical Engineering, USC).

Im sure your claim without any evidence whatsoever to back it, that his work is BS will give him a laugh, dont forget to tell him you shine lasers at UFO's

 

[mike]

And when you are done drop a line to

Profesor Deadwyler telling him the article he co-authored is BS


Samuel A. Deadwyler, Ph.D., Professor Physiology and Pharmacology - Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center


Heres the article

A cortical neural prosthesis for restoring and enhancing memory - Abstract - Journal of Neural Engineering - IOPscience

A primary objective in developing a neural prosthesis is to replace neural circuitry in the brain that no longer functions appropriately. Such a goal requires artificial reconstruction of neuron-to-neuron connections in a way that can be recognized by the remaining normal circuitry, and that promotes appropriate interaction. In this study, the application of a specially designed neural prosthesis using a multi-input/multi-output (MIMO) nonlinear model is demonstrated by using trains of electrical stimulation pulses to substitute for MIMO model derived ensemble firing patterns. Ensembles of CA3 and CA1 hippocampal neurons, recorded from rats performing a delayed-nonmatch-to-sample (DNMS) memory task, exhibited successful encoding of trial-specific sample lever information in the form of different spatiotemporal firing patterns. MIMO patterns, identified online and in real-time, were employed within a closed-loop behavioral paradigm. Results showed that the model was able to predict successful performance on the same trial. Also, MIMO model-derived patterns, delivered as electrical stimulation to the same electrodes, improved performance under normal testing conditions and, more importantly, were capable of recovering performance when delivered to animals with ensemble hippocampal activity compromised by pharmacologic blockade of synaptic transmission. These integrated experimental-modeling studies show for the first time that, with sufficient information about the neural coding of memories, a neural prosthesis capable of real-time diagnosis and manipulation of the encoding process can restore and even enhance cognitive, mnemonic processes.

Full paper here

http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/8/4/046017/pdf/1741-2552_8_4_046017.pdf