September 6, 2015 — Walter Bosley with Goggs Mackay

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

I'd like to add that I visited the Pentagon Shopping Center—right near the Pentagon and I went into a Barnes & Noble and was shocked that this store had (by far) the largest occult, metaphysical and UFO section of any bookstore I've ever visited. It sprawled row after row and was a major section of books in the store. In most stores you're lucky if you have a single shelf (or two) containing these types of books. This amazing amount of titles could not be in that particular store by accident.

Chris ,
I am not surprised and saw the same in other book shops around the World for folks who don't follow the subject it seems to be popular in certain institutions. Ufology and Walter hey life too short and agree to disagree

 

[Walter Bosley]

You and I haven't been having a debate. I just knew I never should have posted that Anne Elk video ( Either that or just left it at that. Not sure which now ).

You seem to have missed the point that there is a way to look at your theory that might come in handy for you in future discussions. But if you don't want to take advantage of that, then that's your business. Take it or leave it..

Now see? You went and assumed I was being negative. I sincerely wasn't. I just don't engage in point-counterpoint discussions where opinions are concerned. I state mine, you state yours, maybe we elaborate a little, we agree or we don't, on to the next topic. That's just my nature.

 

[Randall]

Chris ,
I am not surprised and saw the same in other book shops around the World for folks who don't follow the subject it seems to be popular in certain institutions.

Interesting

Ufology and Walter hey life too short and agree to disagree

We weren't having a debate, so "agreeing to disagree" isn't applicable. But I'm taking your advice and backing out anyway. I'm just not going to let the trickster drag me into whatever that is any further.

 

[Walter Bosley]

 

[Sub-light]

I guess uncovering secretive stuff is fun to some extent. The problem is that when the conspiracy theory's become so huge that we're powerless, it kind of takes the fun out of it. There seems to be this notion sometimes on the show that well, we're never going to be able to find out anything because all of the evidence has been burned or a huge secretive entity has always been in control of all of it. Call me naïve but I enjoyed watching the progress towards our little steps to the Moon and Look forward to some day going to Mars. But if some supersecret group is already done all that long ago it knocks the wind out of the excitement for me of watching that achievement. I approach Ufology the same way. I consider it exciting to possibly know an unknown. If I'm made to feel like a powerless little worm who will never know the truth it seems kind of boring. This is why I don't like biblical creationism. It's a little like saying "don't bother exploring we have that all the answers right here." If there is some big group out there with all of the answers they are telling me "don't look to the sky, don't look for evidence, don't look for smoking guns, don't explore the universe, we are in control now. "There's nothing to see here folks it's was just swamp gas go back to your business." When I hear things like, "find out what "THEY" don't want you to know" but then the "THEY" becomes so big and powerful we will never know then what's the point of trying to find out? I know, call me naïve and call me a newbie but I'd like to think that "The They" just isn't as big as we think and that, we will find out someday. I don't know, it just seems "funner"that way so, don't give up kids, keep digging through grandpa's attic and maybe you'll find something someday

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I think I have an answer to the moon landing hoax theory that satisfies both sides to a small degree anyway.

That is, I think we went but something was discovered or confirmed that caused us to limit returning and also doctoring lots of photos. I've heard many skeptical explanations for the apollo photos and I still don't buy all those perfect photos taken without even a viewfinder.

A huge piece of 'evidence ' to me is seeing a technician from Hasselblad saying that some photos should not have been possible.

So I do think they went there but many photos redone for a number of reasons including wishing perfection for posterity and possibly hiding things that were photographed but deemed unshowable. I also believe the tales of the lunar photo lab 'airbrushing' troubling things out of some photos.
If there was nothing to hide re lunar photos, why did NASA try every trick in the book to withhold what should be extremely boring photos of craters?

 

[Wade]

"... I know, call me naïve and call me a newbie but I'd like to think that "The They" just isn't as big as we think and that, we will find out someday. I don't know, it just seems "funner"that way so, don't give up kids, keep digging through grandpa'sattic and maybe you'll find something someday..."

Well said sub light you can count me as a naïve newbie as well. Yeah. I agree the omnipresent "they" would seemingly are pushing to have us on lock down. I'm the type of person who tends to categorize things especially when it comes to the concepts of synchronicity/coincidence/chance/fate/accident. As in which concept would apply here and that's why while I do try to familiarize myself with some conspiracy theories I also keep them at arms distance. The reason for this is that sometimes things just happen. The butterfly effect as it were. that is, we all react to certain events around us and because we all have an "selfish" interest in the way things turn out and these interests will conflict with someone's else's interests and then comes the inevitable conflict and cover up. In the end everyone wants to keep their piece of the pie...a very human trait...and don't necessarily feel compelled to be proactive and announce their interests to the world. And in some cases I'm sure it does come down to an insular group of greedy people with a strong sense of entitlement needs to have the upper hand in every aspect of society and you can probably get all twisted up trying to differentiate (spl?) between the two.

And then i suppose you could take it a step furthur and bring up a trickster aspect. none of us are truly in control we are all just covering our asses (or maybe it's assets )

 

[Walter Bosley]

For the record, I've never seen the breakaways that I think exist to be some all-powerful group. As a matter of fact, I have often said to a researcher who's a good friend (and quite cynical) that I think a big reason they would stay secretive is that they are NOT all-powerful, i.e. I think they are vulnerable if widely exposed. To take it further, I think that there being two in opposition to each other (in my opinion), they keep each other in check.

My focus has been what I consider to be the emergence era of these breakaways, i.e. 19th and early 20th Century. I'm not so much focused on breakaway theory of WW2 and onward. I leave that discussion to others. And actually, the breakaway thing is in the background of my research, it's not my primary focus. In fact, I have only one book to come (being written with another author) that is primarily a breakaway book. I get asked to discuss it because it's an aspect of my work and the topic is popular right now. My focus of the past two years has been looking at figures whom I suspect were on 'secret missions' in pursuit of lost technology of forgotten civilizations. I'm already on my third one of those now, technically my fourth because I consider the Etta Place/Harry Longabaugh material in EOTW2:Friends From Sonora to be an unofficial 'Secret Missions' book. Because elements resonant with breakaway theory popped up in that, I ventured into such territory. Because it continued to resonate, I developed my personal theory on their emergence.

Anyway, that's how I ended up on the Paracast talking about breakaway civilizations, because of breakaway elements in EOTW2:FFS, EOTW3:The Nameless Ones, and breakaway aspects of my Secret Missions books (1 & 2) (and probably a little because as an AFOSI agent specializing in CI/CE, I did a little program protection work over the years and have a perspective on relative stuff). The book that is tentatively to be Secret Missions 3 is primarily an investigation into curiosities surrounding a particular individual whom I suspect may have been working for Uncle Sam (or someone), much like my recently released Burton book yet different enough that it might NOT be a 'Secret Missions' book and I'll write it anyway. If breakaway material pops up, it will be included, but it's not a 'breakaway civilization book'.

That may be why I'm not so invested in the point-counterpoint dialogue regarding breakaways because it's not actually my primary focus, it's an element in the big picture of my research, FWIW.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

Whenever I hear myself or someone else say that something is "impossible" to create/make/photograph I think of two examples (there are plenty more).

1. Crop circles. When these things were still a big mystery I remember every "expert" and scientific type that did "massive research" on them. They went into great detail to explain how the stalks were bent and not broke and that the way they are bent is impossible for a human to do because blah blah blah. They explained 100 different ways of how it was impossible for a human to do and then went on to show what it would look like if a human did it (side by side comparison). The patterns are so precise, large, and exact that only something floating above the crop could produce a crop circle and that the craft had to have used a laser to do it. Bottom line; it was a couple of guys with a plank of wood with rope attached. So much for "impossible for a human to create". Now those swearing that it was the work of E.T. must feel super foolish after betting their lives that it was created by a UFO/E.T.

2. Billy Meier. I remember researchers including the late Wendelle Stevens showing one of Meier's "Beamships" in a photo. Stevens goes on to explain that they "ran the photo through a computer and the computer confirms what Meier said. The craft was about 30 ft in diameter at a distance of 100-200 yards form the camera." Bottom line; hoax. Models were used with the combination of forced perspective. So much for the "experts" and their "super computers" that confirmed the size and distance of the UFO.

So anytime I hear the experts say that a photo, trace evidence, etc. is impossible to duplicate, I think of these two cases. And there are more of course but these are two of the main ones I think of.

 

[Burnt State]

Whenever I hear myself or someone else say that something is "impossible" to create/make/photograph I think of two examples (there are plenty more).

1. Crop circles. When these things were still a big mystery I remember every "expert" and scientific type that did "massive research" on them. They went into great detail to explain how the stalks were bent and not broke and that the way they are bent is impossible for a human to do because blah blah blah. They explained 100 different ways of how it was impossible for a human to do and then went on to show what it would look like if a human did it (side by side comparison). The patterns are so precise, large, and exact that only something floating above the crop could produce a crop circle and that the craft had to have used a laser to do it. Bottom line; it was a couple of guys with a plank of wood with rope attached. So much for "impossible for a human to create". Now those swearing that it was the work of E.T. must feel super foolish after betting their lives that it was created by a UFO/E.T.

2. Billy Meier. I remember researchers including the late Wendelle Stevens showing one of Meier's "Beamships" in a photo. Stevens goes on to explain that they "ran the photo through a computer and the computer confirms what Meier said. The craft was about 30 ft in diameter at a distance of 100-200 yards form the camera." Bottom line; hoax. Models were used with the combination of forced perspective. So much for the "experts" and their "super computers" that confirmed the size and distance of the UFO.

So anytime I hear the experts say that a photo, trace evidence, etc. is impossible to duplicate, I think of these two cases. And there are more of course but these are two of the main ones I think of.

I think that's an important consideration. Frequently we are provided examples where "Science" or "The Expert" SAYS ....blah blah blah.... impossible....and "there's no way that those buildings fell to the ground just because planes crashed into them." However, we've never really crashed planes that size into buildings that size to know exactly what kind of mad science would unfold from such an insane experiment. Similarly, when science or proof is withheld from the masses, or when institutions like NASA operate at a distance from the people, there's no real way to prove much of anything because of the distance restrictions impose on getting access to the real data.

The debate about what happened/didn't happen or was found/not found on the moon doesn't ever add up to much because we have no way of getting at different or alternative truths. I'm not saying they don't exist, but there's never been too much to go on beyond the official story and what the astronauts said. I have yet to hear a good argument regarding faked photos or impossible photos regarding the moon shots.

For the record, I've never seen the breakaways that I think exist to be some all-powerful group. As a matter of fact, I have often said to a researcher who's a good friend (and quite cynical) that I think a big reason they would stay secretive is that they are NOT all-powerful, i.e. I think they are vulnerable if widely exposed. To take it further, I think that there being two in opposition to each other (in my opinion), they keep each other in check.

Walter, I've enjoyed every episode on RM that you've been on and the stories and possible histories that you weave. Good mysteries are hard to come by. But a "not so powerful secret group" doesn't sound much different than neo nazi, para-military, polygamist UFO cult groups living out in the hills. Do they matter? Do they have a significant impact?

A real Breakaway Culture should be a stand alone unit that lives in a way and with a power and control that is entirely beyond the rest of society and no one knows who or what they are for them to really matter. The über wealthy are those people and they rule the world from behind a filthy, impenetrable wall of wealth pornography.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I think that's an important consideration. Frequently we are provided examples where "Science" or "The Expert" SAYS ....blah blah blah.... impossible....and "there's no way that those buildings fell to the ground just because planes crashed into them." However, we've never really crashed planes that size into buildings that size to know exactly what kind of mad science would unfold from such an insane experiment. Similarly, when science or proof is withheld from the masses, or when institutions like NASA operate at a distance from the people, there's no real way to prove much of anything because of the distance restrictions impose on getting access to the real data.

The debate about what happened/didn't happen or was found/not found on the moon doesn't ever add up to much because we have no way of getting at different or alternative truths. I'm not saying they don't exist, but there's never been too much to go on beyond the official story and what the astronauts said. I have yet to hear a good argument regarding faked photos or impossible photos regarding the moon shots.


Walter, I've enjoyed every episode on RM that you've been on and the stories and possible histories that you weave. Good mysteries are hard to come by. But a "not so powerful secret group" doesn't sound much different than neo nazi, para-military, polygamist UFO cult groups living out in the hills. Do they matter? Do they have a significant impact?

A real Breakaway Culture should be a stand alone unit that lives in a way and with a power and control that is entirely beyond the rest of society and no one knows who or what they are for them to really matter. The über wealthy are those people and they rule the world from behind a filthy, impenetrable wall of wealth pornography.

You make some good points BUT, come on, there is quite a gap between breakaways that aren't all-powerful (but are still powerful breakaways nonetheless) and a nutty cult group like that you cite, i.e. Neo-Nazis or polygamists in the hills. Please. You know what I mean.

 

[Mr. Fibuli]

You make some good points BUT, come on, there is quite a gap between breakaways that aren't all-powerful (but are still powerful breakaways nonetheless) and a nutty cult group like that you cite, i.e. Neo-Nazis or polygamists in the hills. Please. You know what I mean.

You know you love the thrust and parry or you wouldn't still be on this thread.
I don't believe in the breakaway stuff but it's totally possible and I would say a high degree of probability based on the scant evidence.
That was a fun show, psyched I could contribute with a question-I was REALLY racking my brain to come up with something relevant and interesting in the couple hours between the question bank and the taping.

 

[Burnt State]

You make some good points BUT, come on, there is quite a gap between breakaways that aren't all-powerful (but are still powerful breakaways nonetheless) and a nutty cult group like that you cite, i.e. Neo-Nazis or polygamists in the hills. Please. You know what I mean.

I do.
I just don't see the value or the impact of breakaways who have ideologically decided to abandon 'our way' of doing things and don't see much difference actually between them and the low level cults or their offspring. Even those high and mighty Scientologists really are not that much different from poor Jehovah Witnesses who wash windows for a living. But if you really had a unique technology that set you apart, that you were hoarding like Catpain Nemo then yes, such isolates would be fascinating. But for me the value of a Breakaway Civilization, as the moniker implies, is its ability to wield a secret power and to control their destinies in a manner that makes them a power to be reckoned with. And I guess I would like to see such separations that are more developed than just working on secret inventions that may or may have not gone anywhere at all. You know what I mean? Perhaps i'd like to see a measurement of the power that they've attained.

BTW, I greatly enjoy your self sufficient attitude. Very refreshing. I hope you are still making movies as well.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I want to make more films, but in the microbudget world, budgets are micro-zero, lol. However, I am working on a project involving my past films.

 

[Sue]

Good mysteries are hard to come by. But a "not so powerful secret group" doesn't sound much different than neo nazi, para-military, polygamist UFO cult groups living out in the hills. Do they matter? Do they have a significant impact?

A real Breakaway Culture should be a stand alone unit that lives in a way and with a power and control that is entirely beyond the rest of society and no one knows who or what they are for them to really matter. The über wealthy are those people and they rule the world from behind a filthy, impenetrable wall of wealth pornography.

I haven't followed all the ins and outs of this thread, but I have to say I find it kind of disturbing to hear it suggested that neo-nazi, paramilitary or polygamist groups have no significant impact. On what? Certainly the accounts of growing up in a polygamist lifestyle that I've read suggest such groups can have a massive impact on individuals, families, local communities and politics. Similarly, did the Branch Davidians have no significant impact on American history and culture? That's not how I remember it.

I don't have a problem with wanting to define "breakaway culture" on a broader, more intangible basis for purposes of discussion, but I think it's advisable to keep at least one foot in the shared reality where ideological fringe groups do get involved in things like extortion, murder, sexual abuse, human trafficking, etc. Such groups may not have much aura of romance hanging about them, but they are by no means insignificant - especially to the lives of people they touch.

 

[Randall]

I think I have an answer to the moon landing hoax theory that satisfies both sides to a small degree anyway.

That is, I think we went but something was discovered or confirmed that caused us to limit returning and also doctoring lots of photos. I've heard many skeptical explanations for the apollo photos and I still don't buy all those perfect photos taken without even a viewfinder.

A huge piece of 'evidence ' to me is seeing a technician from Hasselblad saying that some photos should not have been possible.

So I do think they went there but many photos redone for a number of reasons including wishing perfection for posterity and possibly hiding things that were photographed but deemed unshowable. I also believe the tales of the lunar photo lab 'airbrushing' troubling things out of some photos.
If there was nothing to hide re lunar photos, why did NASA try every trick in the book to withhold what should be extremely boring photos of craters?

While sifting through the alleged Moon Landing Hoax stuff, I ran across ( I forget exactly where now ) how the photos in question were obtained. Apparently, after the Apollo program was mothballed, a lot of stuff was pretty much literally mothballed, and what researchers found was lying around in cardboard boxes in old offices that were no longer in use, and not very well organized, just packed up and abandoned. It seems unlikely, but it's actually not really all that hard to believe. There was a huge amount of staff who basically all just got laid off and sent packing.

So when pictures were found that looked like they were taken on the Moon, it was simply assumed that the Moon is where the pictures were taken. However it also turned out that NASA had a mock-up facility out near Meteor Crater, for training purposes, and it's safe to assume that photos were also taken there, not just by the astronauts in training, but by others as well. It looks really Moon like out there, so it would be easy for an untrained eye to mistake them for real ones and publish them believing they were from the Moon. Later a pro analyst sees they're not consistent with an actual Moon photo, and the hoax is born.

 

[Burnt State]

I haven't followed all the ins and outs of this thread, but I have to say I find it kind of disturbing to hear it suggested that neo-nazi, paramilitary or polygamist groups have no significant impact. On what? Certainly the accounts of growing up in a polygamist lifestyle that I've read suggest such groups can have a massive impact on individuals, families, local communities and politics. Similarly, did the Branch Davidians have no significant impact on American history and culture? That's not how I remember it.

I don't have a problem with wanting to define "breakaway culture" on a broader, more intangible basis for purposes of discussion, but I think it's advisable to keep at least one foot in the shared reality where ideological fringe groups do get involved in things like extortion, murder, sexual abuse, human trafficking, etc. Such groups may not have much aura of romance hanging about them, but they are by no means insignificant - especially to the lives of people they touch.

Sue, I don't mean to belittle the loss of life by the fringed or the deluded but I do not see them as cultural influencers or shifters in any serious way whatsoever. These groups are the engineers of tragedy and waste, and while they sometimes explode all over the screen, so too does homegrown terrorism - perhaps a much more powerful breakaway cultural force in society, but these are not all powerful world controllers. They are as potent as the next door neighbor serial rapist, and their impact locally is enormous, but when we're busy writing history, few will receive even a line or two at the most.

I don't see Jonestown or the Branch Davidians as a major impact movement. They are a blip in time. I don't want to take away from the tragedy they visited or the lives that they managed to claim, especially the innocents whose deluded parents dared to bring them into such levels of hell.

Perhaps defining what a Breakaway Civilization needs more thought. To me it sounds utterly conspiracist and mostly impossible except for the wealth pornographers who really are the world controllers who broke away from us all generations and generations ago. They fly under the radar and live in another world altogether. Those isolates who run to the hills to engineer local madness that ends in tragedy - their ideological insignificance is what it is.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I haven't followed all the ins and outs of this thread, but I have to say I find it kind of disturbing to hear it suggested that neo-nazi, paramilitary or polygamist groups have no significant impact. On what? Certainly the accounts of growing up in a polygamist lifestyle that I've read suggest such groups can have a massive impact on individuals, families, local communities and politics. Similarly, did the Branch Davidians have no significant impact on American history and culture? That's not how I remember it.

I don't have a problem with wanting to define "breakaway culture" on a broader, more intangible basis for purposes of discussion, but I think it's advisable to keep at least one foot in the shared reality where ideological fringe groups do get involved in things like extortion, murder, sexual abuse, human trafficking, etc. Such groups may not have much aura of romance hanging about them, but they are by no means insignificant - especially to the lives of people they touch.

Uh...Within the context of what was being discussed in the thread, the neo Nazi and polygamist cult types do not apply to the point that was addressed. That's why it was essentially said that they don't apply, because of the context, gleaned from a full read, I might add.

 

[Jimi Justin]

Really?

 

[Walter Bosley]

Really?

Yes. Really.