What if there are NO anomalous Ufos?

[Simonemendez]

I have a psychic (hehe) feeling that this thread will quickly go by the way side. BUT I'M HOPING NOT. I am expressing my deep-thoughts on this forum versus any other Ufo forum Out There, because as far as I know........this 'un is the most skeptical.......of Ufo forums. So if I meet with a lot of negativity or shunning, I'll know this forum isn't that skeptical after all. (Sigh...)
I am SERIOUSLY wondering if there really are anomalous Ufos. I myself have seen strange things in the sky long ago. But when I did, I was a very young, excitable, gullible, minimally educated, impressionable escapist-oriented girl. Lately, I have been trying to remember what I saw. It was three decades ago. If I saw those same things now, what would my older more logical mind percieve? I know a lot of you are saying, "you should watch James Fox's video, 'I know What I Saw'." But do those albeit professional, men really truly know what they saw? A man can be an expert in some kind of aviation-oriented occupation, and not the above-described "girl", but if he is NOT familiar with Ufology, Ufological history < i.e. the works of people like Jerome Clark, Phillip Klass, Vallee, Keel, ---even--- Moseley, as well as Project Blue Book and the Skeptical Enquirer with CSICOP ETC) And this man, this eyewitness, has been inculcated--------since boyhood, with movies like 'The Day The Earth Stood Still'; Well, then, does he really KNOW what he saw? I gather that the COMETA report has concluded that ET spaceships are here, right? What do they base that on? Ufos that LOOK AND ACT ANOMALOUS? I'm just into a different way of looking at things these days, and I'd like to see if others (besides the muchly hated "debunkers") do as well.

 

[Simonemendez]

Thanks my fellow skeptic. I was curious what someone like you, thinks of a (well...uh,errr) Conspiracy Theory I have, that the whole Ufo and also abduction phenomenon, had been ---deliberately--- set in motion and also maintained through the decades; though my reasons for that, have to be my own theory fer now.
For quite some time, albeit kinda recently, though; I was still hanging on to the idea that Earth's own SuperSecret AboveBlack Cabal, was harboring that antigrav and "free energy" technoknowhow. However, someone on this here very forum offered this: There is NONE of that, but as long as the U.S.s enemies ---believe--- such, well, that is a good working Psychological Intelligence Operation, which I do know-----exists. < That theory is my current running fave for now. Whatcha think of all that?

 

[CapnG]

How do you account for sightings pre-dating the modern era? Are you seriously suggesting that there's a branch of the US government that has nothing better to do with it's time than dick around with people for 60+ years to perpetuate UFO mythology?

Yes, that's much more realistic than genuinely anomalous objects being occaisionaly sighted by credible people...

 

[dyingsun]

As a (hopefully) much-hated debunker, I certainly agree with your sentiments.

Think about the very beginning when Arnold said that the objects he saw (which were not saucer shaped) moved like a saucer skipping across water. But the press misunderstood and called the object saucer-like. From then on, people mostly saw flying saucers!

Somehow the saucer enthusiasts dismiss this inconvenient fact. Or don't (or maybe can't) see the implications.

Lance

You are trying really hard, aren't you.

 

[dyingsun]

Absolutely.

Carry on then.

 

[Ron Collins]

I applaud the effort to consider alternate solutions. The problem is that this phenomenon is not just just a perception problem. We have to consider multi-witness sightings, technological recordings (radar, video, photos), and historical accounts.

Now I will be the first to point out that there are ways to fool people through photographic and video manipulation. But, stereographic or multiple angle shots within the same timeline from different sources help to reduce this probability to near zero. Though rare, these do exist.

From a multiple witness scenario your argument of overactive perception breaks down. Take the Stephenville Texas sightings as a "for instance". This was not a "fire in the theater" reaction of a concentrated group of people. This was many people seeing a craft during the same timeline from a wide geographical area backed up by radar data. These people were from various educational, socio-economical, age, and occupational backgrounds. The Air Force was even caught lying twice. Once saying there was no aircraft in the area and once saying it was a single flight of 10 aircraft. This had been reported by these same people and once the actual radar data was analyzed they were proven right and the Air Force was proven wrong. Now, you have to admit, that people got one side of this particular encounter correct despite the official account and then had a mass delusion on the other aspect is nearly impossible.

Historical records (those before the modern era) can be interpreted in multiple ways. Some are more conveniently used than others. Though I would agree that other interpretations could be made you have to also concede that some ufological interpretations are also possible given the current understanding of the phenomenon and how it manifests.

As for the saucer thing, it is not forgotten nor is the Arnold sighting the last of the "none-saucer" craft to be sighted, photographed, or videoed. We regularly see triangles, egg shapes(especially in the 60's), cigar shapes, balls, humanoids, and even crescents. One could counter-argue that the term "saucer" took hold because the classical saucer craft had already been seen in many places without a satisfactory one word descriptor. After all, many of the initial reports also used terminology like "disc", "disk", and "Oval or round". It just so happens that the term "saucer" was a more accurate descriptor.

I make it a practice of trying to avoid complicated government coverup plots. However, I will only comment to support CapnG's point. It is MUCH more probably that there is an actual phenomenon than the whole cabal thing. Cabals are just to logistically taxing. Try to create one and you'll see wehat I mean.

That there IS A PHENOMENON has been proven convincingly by reputable sources several times. Now sourcing that phenomenon or getting an accurate number of real and genuine encounters has always been problematic to say the least. if you want to have a healthy dose of skepticism then I support you wholeheartedly. Just try to avoid taking the easy way out and declare that there is no phenomenon because there have also been hoaxes or misidentifications.

 

[xLordSummerislex]

I think even if there turned out to be nothing behind the UFO phenomena (at least in terms of aliens, structured craft etc), I think there's still useful and interesting stuff to be learned from it, for example if entity encounters are just some form of psychological experience, how and why that occurs are just as interesting to me as flesh and blood aliens. Also, I suspect there could be some poorly understood or completely unknown natural phenomena that gets lumped in with UFOs, such as earthlights.

 

[Paul Kimball]

From then on, people mostly saw flying saucers!

Lance,

As a "much-hated debunker" you should at least get your facts right. People have not mostly seen flying saucers, which you would know if you familiarized yourself with the data. Yes, in the immediate aftermath of the Arnold sighting, "saucers" were all the rage (and Stan Friedman has done his best to keep that term alive), but if you look at a resource like Dick Hall's UFO Evidence (either volume) you'll see a myriad of shapes, sizes, and overall descriptions. Not mostly by a long shot. Indeed, one of my favourite cases is the egg-shaped Vins-Sur-Caramy case from France that Jacques Vallee has written about. No saucer there - unless the egg was sitting on it!

Paul

 

[Xylo]

Ok, so if we throw out all saucer shaped craft as bogus, all "unexplained" lights, and all non-corraborated sightings we are still left with radar reports, sonar reports and trace evidence cases.

What then? Do we explain away all radar reports that have no corraboration from eyewitnesses? The same with Sonar reports and trace evidence?

After that, we are still left with a few substantial cases with no apparent causes.

 

[AnnetteMarie]

How do you account for sightings pre-dating the modern era? Are you seriously suggesting that there's a branch of the US government that has nothing better to do with it's time than dick around with people for 60+ years to perpetuate UFO mythology?

Yes, that's much more realistic than genuinely anomalous objects being occaisionaly sighted by credible people...

go back further than 60 years, actually , but my thoughts, also, only include more than the US of A governments, eh? 8)

 

[softbeard]

For quite some time, albeit kinda recently, though; I was still hanging on to the idea that Earth's own SuperSecret AboveBlack Cabal, was harboring that antigrav and "free energy" technoknowhow. However, someone on this here very forum offered this: There is NONE of that, but as long as the U.S.s enemies ---believe--- such, well, that is a good working Psychological Intelligence Operation, which I do know-----exists. < That theory is my current running fave for now. Whatcha think of all that?

From my quite limited experience in this topic, and without being able to give specifics, my feelings on the US government 'cabal' thing re UFO as psychops is that it mostly doesn't exist currently, though it probably has been dabled-in in the past, if nothing else than as psychops-experimentation. You can certainly see motive and opportunity on the part of the CIA & similar intelligence agencies (and not necessarily U.S.). Kind of a thing to do when you don't have anything better to do.
As for the original subject in this thread, I think it's very important to seriously consider. Seeing all the hoaxes and misidentifcations related to UFO's, it would be foolish not to closely examine the hypothesis that, when all is said and done, all UFO's can be explained as natural phenomena + manmade craft + hoaxes + human observer/machine observer error.
But then you get the cases like the Nellis UFO, Bentwater, O'Hare airport, reputable commerical/military pilot sightings with comfirming radar reports, strange objects during Apollo/STS missions. The list goes on, and everybody has his/her favourite cases. So, on the balance, from my limited experience, I'd argue that anomolous activity is there and we should be investigating further. Come to think of it, I think Hynek, in the end, came to mostly the same conclusion.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well I consider myself one of the more skeptical people around here, and have actually been called (rather unfairly) a debunker a few times.
I believe that the overwhelming number of cases in UFO history are misidentification's or people seeking attention. And seriously, I think the number of people who are doing it for attention is greatly underestimated by most people. I honestly believe that many people are making these stories up without even themselves realising what they are doing, and I believe that it is a form of mental illness that people make these things up in a subconscious effort to back up their hopes of not being alone.

However anomalous UFO's in the true sense of the word are a FACT. i.e. there have definitely been things in the air that we have been unable to identify. Take the Belgian triangle case for example, where a whole bunch of police officers saw a big flying triangle.... the air force was called in, and an F-16 played cat and mouse with the thing for around 2 hours, with the whole thing being caught on Radar, and the UFO performing manoeuvres which would take an infinite level of acceleration and would kill any man inside due to the extremely G pressures of the manoeuvre.
There is no doubt something was there, as it was all recorded but what could the object actually be?
Well there only two few options I can think of:
1. A top secret black project that for some reason a nation is flying over Belgium - This seems unlikely however as the flight characteristics were so impressive that we would by able to get to other planets with that kind of technology
2. An Alien craft from somewhere else - This is the most common belief from the people who dealt with the case... the head of the belgian air force, the pilot of the F16 and the top radar specialist in the world at the time

The main point is to look at the evidence clearly, and don't let your personal biases, or other peoples opinions get in the way of your conclusions. Just remember, REAL debunkers do not look at the evidence properly and do not even care about the true answer. They just do it because they get some sort of perverse pleasure out of spoiling peoples debates on the subject by just saying over and over that there is no evidence even when there is obviously is (but i am not saying it necessarily points to Aliens), and Lance has even shown us evidence of that in this thread when he writes:

As a (hopefully) much-hated debunker, I certainly agree with your sentiments.

Its like the school bully getting a kick out of being hated by the other kids......

I believe this sort of debunking behaviour is another form of mental illness which relates to OCD, and compels people over and over to join these debates in an effort to 'spoil everyone's fun and wreck their dreams'....
I mean look at Phil Klass for example, why else would he spend 25 years going on and on about the subject of UFO's unless he
a) was being paid by the government to cover it up - which I don't believe
or
b) Because he had the form of OCD that I mentioned above

As Don Ecker said, "I know that the tooth fairy isnt real, but I wouldnt spend 25 years of my life going on about it to other people" (paraphrased)

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------

But I contend that the saucer shape was #1. By the way, if you still happen to dispute the above, please tell us what shape you contend was the leader?

Cigar shapes also were often (but not mostly!!) reported and orbs, etc. But the prevalent shape was saucer-like.

I am not sure when (or if) saucers ever fell to second place as the shape most reported (I suspect they are still number one) but over time tastes change and pop culture also becomes part of the equation.

By the way, You also missed the whole point of my post (or I would guess willfully ignored it)--why did saucers become so prevalent after the newspaper wrongly described them as such?

Saucer shapes are actually far less common in recent years. I would say probably Triangles are the most common now, perhaps followed by glowing orbs but I havent actually done a survey to work that out

 

[TClaeys]

One look into the Hessdalen phenomena will basically prove that anomalous UFO's do exist. They have been documented, photographed, video taped, observed in a scientific way. I think that lots of things happen that are anomalous to us because we don't have the understanding yet.

So, I'm wondering if your underlying question is "What if there are no UFO's piloted by non-human intelligent beings". Is that what you are really getting at?? If so, then just clarify. But it seems to me that over many centuries we have acquired an adequate knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, and so forth. But we haven't acquired all the knowledge. There certainly seem to be mysteries left. What is it that happened at Delphos Kansas do you think?? What about amorphous pulsing lights in Iran?? The mysterious light phenomenon in the Yakima valley??

While I don't claim that these types of encounters are alien piloted craft from another planet I still think that some of them are certainly anomalous. Perhaps perception combined with ignorance produces a psychological reaction that forces the observers to fit their experience into some kind of a box. Occasionally things happen that are not normal and may produce fear, wonder, awe, or whatever. It doesn't mean they are inteliigently controlled (even if they seem to be). Ancients thought meteorites were from the gods, ... maybe we still have strange, but perfectly natural, occurences that we explain as aliens because we don't know any better.

But I would submit that there are enough sightings and descriptions of phenomena, other than saucers, to conclude that something strange is going on, ... at least with SOME of them. Maybe the whole "It's aliens" is a scapegoat because we have no other reference point or adequate explanation for them. And maybe, just maybe, there is another civilization visiting.... although that would be dead last in my own consideration.

We're headed to space ourselves despite our archaic mode of travel. Maybe in the next century we discover a secret to travelling faster or bending time. That seems to be the biggest obstacle in terms of any interstellar travellers.

 

[Hoffmeister]

In other words, it would be easier to believe if the crazy skeptics would stop bothering you with facts?
Lance

Thats the difference, Debunkers don't look at the facts, if they did they would actually see that whatever you believe, 'some' of the cases are unexplainable.
We rarely see you posting any facts here, just shooting other people down without presenting any meaningful evidence.

Do you have a third option for what the Belgian UFO that was chased by F16's for two hours was?
If you want a quick overview of the case....

Doc 1: You'll need to download the veoh web player and fast forward to 10:20 for the 10 minute or so section on the Belgian UFO case.
UFOs Uncovered | Free Educational Videos - Watch Educational Videos Online | Veoh

Doc 2: Fast forward to 51 minutes
Unsolved Mysteries 1- UFOs Roswell_1stVDO

 

[Hoffmeister]

If you read above I said "If you want a quick overview of the case...."
I did not say "Here is my evidence and this is foolproof", as I dont have time to post all the actual evidence. The unsolved mysteries just shows the intriguing accounts of the police officers, but the first video shows the accounts of the pilot and it shows the F16 radar, and it shows a radar expert of the time saying critically that the object was caught on 4 separate radars, 3 ground and 1 f16, all of different makes.

The article you posted clearly overlooks that and picks holes in the F16's radar itself.... but it was caught on all 4 radars and they all came back with the same reading.... hence the radar expert saying that it could not have been an anomalous reading. Now I dont know about you, but I prefer to believe the words of one of the worlds top radar expert over someone who obviously hasnt looked at all the facts.
Another difference between you and I is that I haven't used sneering remarks to try in an effort to belittle the other..... I dont really see the need to.

If you read my actual post you would have seen that I havent made my mind up anyway... I havent made my mind up because I havent seen conclusive proof either way. Anyone who has already made their mind up (i.e. true UFO believers or skeptics like yourself) in my mind are not being truly critical.

For what its worth, I have seen with my own eyes a flying triangle similar to those in the belgian reports, as has one of my housemates on a separate occasion and both of us believe that it was simply a black ops lighter than air military project... probably used for covert troop carrying. Since those are known to be in existence, one could use that to explain the belgian UFO case if they could get around the radar thing, and the fact that the Belgians themselves knew they weren't flying anything like that.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well it wasnt meant to be offensive, whereas yours was.
Mentally ill is just the closest word to the point I meant, but not in a nasty way so i'm sorry if it offended you.
Lets call them 'characteristic quirks', if it makes it less offensive. In fact I think that almost everyone has their own individual 'Characteristic quirks' like this... even myself... because nobody is perfect.
I genuinely don't take internet banter, or even this subject so seriously that I would get so upset with people and start trying to purposely offend them.

But I do still wonder why debunkers still get involved in such conversations if they genuinely think there is definitely nothing to it, and I do still wonder how they find it so hard to believe that Aliens can come here when many of the world top scientists do believe that there could well be space faring races out there. It just seems so closed minded to me (again not meant to be offensive if thats how you took it).

 

[softbeard]

I would start here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061202020004/http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/Belg.html

Which is a much more thorough job than I would have been likely (or able) to do. Maybe you will see this as an even better discussion of the case than the scientific bulwark that is Unsolved Mysteries? But somehow I doubt it.

Lance

Lance, you know I read through Tim Printy's analysis of this Belgian 'Triangle UFO' flap and I found it very interesting. Thanks for for pointing me to this article, as I had not seen it previously. As usual, once one looks into the details, some of the folklore mythos of a case falls by the wayside. I agree that the F16 radar data seems a lot less compelling when explained in more detail. Radar, even in the late 80's - early 90's was still relatively crude (I would suspect the F16's radar would have been manufactured circa ~1985-that's a guess!) mainly due to lack of sophisticated computing power. False/incorrect returns on the F16's radar or ground radar due to weather phenomena would not surprise me.
However, I find Tims' explanations of what the police officers saw as blimps and the planet Venus also not very compelling. To me, that's stretching it. And, as I understand it, these objects were seen by several groups of witnesses. Furthermore, from the accounts I read, the lighting on these objects was capable of illuminating a large area, implying a large light-power output.
I guess my point is that if simple explanations suffice, so be it. We don't need to be inventing alien spaceships; we've got enough problems already. But neither should we be dismissing apparently anomolous events just because 'it can't be so'.

 

[Kieran]

I think people often forget that Allied and Axis fighter pilots and Bomber crews filed UFO reports during World War 2. This reports or claims spoke of "Balls of light" trailing their aircraft. The balls of light seen were either White, Red, Orange, or Green and sometimes all these colours were present when a sighting occurred. So this, if we want to get technical here was probably the starting point of modern ufology years before Roswell.

The Battle of Los Angeles( a ufo sighting) i believe that sighting in 1942 speaks volumes and gives us a base from were to judge the merits and the reality of the UFO phenomenon before 47'. There is obviously a mystery here, we would "Not" have the vast amount of evidence that we do if there wasn't people. Let us get Real here especially you Lance. UFO's have and were seen over high security nuclear bases in the United states and possibility other nations experienced this phenomenon also during the 1960's, 70's, 80's and actually one case was proven later with documentation ( M.0.D) Ministry of Defence UK released information that dealt with the Rendlesam UFO forest incident and this confirmed this event as being real. That is just one case from the 1980's and it didn't even occur on US soil. The UFO phenomenon is not a isolated thing most cultures on the planet have oddity stories, myths and legends of odd Phenomenon in the distant and ancient past and today we have UFO reports coming from every corner of the global.

I would be considered a true UFO believer to many. I'm a person who has seen things and i never wished or wanted to see this stuff or even sought it out. Look not to be an ass here and be boasting about a sighting i had, but i personally observed a number of Black Mushroom looking UFO's 30,000 feet up in the sky over England. I was aboard a plane from Stansted London to Shannon Ireland around 7.00 clock in the evening and i observed this for thirty seconds with a friend. I saw it clearly and there is nothing wrong with my Eyesight or my Perception. I'm here to have an honest discussion about UFO's, but again people who say UFO's don't exist for me are the people who are not living in the real World. I have moved beyond that point. I want to know, what they are / not do they exist.

 

[Ron Collins]

Hi Lance,

Here is my main problem with self styled "Skeptics". The word "Skeptic" has been hijacked in recent years. Now it is almost the antithesis for the true believer crowd. Denial at all costs. So called skeptics have very little knowledge of the cases they are skeptical about. They, on average, have not been actively involved in any real research within ufology and would have at best only rudimentary knowledge of the phenomenon and its various facets and manifestations.

Yet, they will remain steadfastly, if not religiously dedicated to the idea that there is no phenomenon. They demand proof. Note that I did not say suggestive evidence. Note also that I did not say "body of work which suggests the possibility of". No I said proof.

They demand proof. To me this is absurd. It is flawed at its skeptical core. To the "Skeptical" folks they dont want to research anything. They want it all delivered to their doorstep. Its just lazy. I would contend that the debunker/skeptic has as much an obligation to provide specific evidence to their explanation as the ufologist has to theirs. If a "Debunker/Skeptic" wants to accurately provide evidence that a particular event may have been something natural then i personally would be extremely receptive to their point of view. That is, after all, responsible research and is highly valued.

Instead all we have are traded insults. This thread is case in point. If you or any skeptic has a point of view that can accurately be shown applicable to a particular case, then present it. But, honestly, you can't expect anyone to give you points for starting out with a conclusion and asking the other side to prove it wrong. How does that promote the scientific method so often quoted by the "debunker/skeptic" folks?

 

[Kieran]

If you read above I said "If you want a quick overview of the case...."
I did not say "Here is my evidence and this is foolproof", as I dont have time to post all the actual evidence. The unsolved mysteries just shows the intriguing accounts of the police officers, but the first video shows the accounts of the pilot and it shows the F16 radar, and it shows a radar expert of the time saying critically that the object was caught on 4 separate radars, 3 ground and 1 f16, all of different makes.

The article you posted clearly overlooks that and picks holes in the F16's radar itself.... but it was caught on all 4 radars and they all came back with the same reading.... hence the radar expert saying that it could not have been an anomalous reading. Now I dont know about you, but I prefer to believe the words of one of the worlds top radar expert over someone who obviously hasnt looked at all the facts.
Another difference between you and I is that I haven't used sneering remarks to try in an effort to belittle the other..... I dont really see the need to.

If you read my actual post you would have seen that I havent made my mind up anyway... I havent made my mind up because I havent seen conclusive proof either way. Anyone who has already made their mind up (i.e. true UFO believers or skeptics like yourself) in my mind are not being truly critical.

For what its worth, I have seen with my own eyes a flying triangle similar to those in the belgian reports, as has one of my housemates on a separate occasion and both of us believe that it was simply a black ops lighter than air military project... probably used for covert troop carrying. Since those are known to be in existence, one could use that to explain the belgian UFO case if they could get around the radar thing, and the fact that the Belgians themselves knew they weren't flying anything like that.

You seek a rational answer for your sighting but there is no evidence the US government has a triangle craft hidden away somewhere either. The Belgium sightings happened 20 years ago and this craft, the triangle had no wings like why would they risk 'the American risk flying a classified no wing aircraft over England or even Belgium which is outside there sphere of influence.