Upcoming Dec.4th Episode

[exo_doc]

UFO investigations have been stalled since Donald Keyhoe days. Where have we gotten in the almost 60 years since then?
Some photos, films, and vids? Eyewitness testimonies of sightings and abductions from people of every culture, class and walk of life?
3000+ trace cases that Ted Phillips has catalogued?

And yet, we are still on square one as far as answering even the simplest of questions: Who are they? Why are they here? Where are they from?

Is it even possible to answer any of those questions without the aliens/interdimensional travelers/time travelers/ -fill-in-the-blank- actually making mass contact?

I feel certain that the US government will never disclose squat about what they know, whether from self-serving reasons or from a "You can't handle the truth" public protection stance, or for some other unimaginable esoteric reason. The American public can put all the pressure it can muster on the Federal Government, ...it ain't gonna budge.

The only things that will get the UFO field out of it's rut are:
1.Government disclosure(won't happen)
2.Alien mass disclosure (hasn't happened yet, so why should it?)
3.An alien craft like the huge one from Phoenix 1997 crashing into the middle of a big city like New York where the government couldn't readily hide it or deny it.(How likely is that to happen though?)
4..............Well, I can't think of anything else.

I am not saying we shouldn't continue to investigate, analyze, and discuss what's going on. What I am saying is perhaps we should transform the rut. Turn it into something that we can move forward with.

Maybe we should:
1.Realize and define our limitations at this point and find ways to work around/through/beyond them somehow.
2.Find new ways to analyze all the data that has been collected over the years to see if it can be collated into patterns or extrapolated data to see if there is some reason for them being here and what they are doing that might be blatantly obvious but that we have missed.
3.Maybe even initiate a program of some sort to actually try and make contact with these beings through whatever means (radio? encoded laser light? the internet? mental telepathy signals? smoke signals?) and make damn sure it can be documented some how.
4.Develop an anti-propaganda program to defeat the media UFO "giggle factor", and find a way to systematically tear down the walls that quarantines honest scientific investigation away from UFOlogy.

Just some suggestions, and by all means not the only ones,but ones I hope make sense.
Maybe we can't, at the present time, prove beyond a doubt we have visitors, but maybe we can lay the ground work that will eventually lead to the answers. We aren't doing so hot coming at this head on, ...maybe it's time to come at it sideways.

 

[thefoundryman]

I strongly agree with #2 on your "maybe we should" criterion. I had an experience that was similar in nature to Mr.Ritzman's and having heard his account on this show, I'd strongly agree that we as a society can learn much from the overlap of the weirder details that persist in the experiences happening here on this planet. Now, what exactly was it, that you were saying about the upcoming episode?

 

[exo_doc]

I strongly agree with #2 on your "maybe we should" criterion. I had an experience that was similar in nature to Mr.Ritzman's and having heard his account on this show, I'd strongly agree that we as a society can learn much from the overlap of the weirder details that persist in the experiences happening here on this planet. Now, what exactly was it, that you were saying about the upcoming episode?

The Paracast email newsletter stated:"This Week's Episode: And now for something completely different: Gene and David talk shop, the state of paranormal research, the important developments in the past year, and future possibilities."
I was just giving by two bits worth about the state of paranormal research(UFO's specifically) and future possibilities.

 

[Cosmic Ejaculator 1814]

3.Maybe even initiate a program of some sort to actually try and make contact with these beings through whatever means (radio? encoded laser light? the internet? mental telepathy signals? smoke signals?) and make damn sure it can be documented some how.

IMO,this is the only way we're ever going to move UFO research forward.Put together a no-nonsense - but open-minded - team of investigators,and camp out in one of the worlds many hotspots.
There are countless cases - many documented in Richard Haines' excellent book "CE-5" - were this phenomenon has been 'willing' to communicate with the witnesses in an apparently intelligent manner - either by car lights,waving of the hands or even thought...

Here's a link to Haines' book Amazon.com: CE-5 : Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind: Richard Haines: Books

 

[Blacknight]

The problem I see with your recommendations, exo_doc, is that they assume there is some truth that we are either capable of knowing or entitled to understand. The one thing I think has become pretty clear over the last 60+ years is that the answers, to the extent there are any, are not as clear-cut and simple as were first articulated in the 1950's; i.e., that the phenomena are alien in nature, that the "objects" are craft piloted by creatures from another civilization, that these aliens carry a message, that we are the important center of the universe such that advanced beings spend a lifetime (so far!) studying us, etc. There is NO evidence to support any of that.

There is nothing that tells us with any degree of certainty that the government, or any other person or entity, has any answer to offer. Maybe the best that's out there is that some people have more clarity around the fundamental nature of the question. I think that's true of Vallee. But what I do believe is that there are things out there that are simply inexplicable right now, and that answers come when they are meant to come. Eventually our science, psychology and philosophy will all come together to answer some or maybe even all the thousands of questions about thousands of things that mystify us today. And I think most of us are more immediately impacted by questions such as why men sometimes engage in such unbridled cruelty to one another than with what those lights in the sky really are.

I think all these "paranormal" events are best treated as curiosities, most of which we are limited to defining only by what we are incapable of explaining, not by providing an answer to what they are. Is there anyone out there, among the hundreds of "researchers" who have devoted their lives to exploring the paranormal, who can truly say they've got an answer that hangs together? We can't even properly frame the question let alone answer it. And in the pursuit of the answer I think we're probably closing off possibilities that may be outside what we currently see as rational. Try and build a "rational" connection between and among all the different paranormal events which beleaguer Messrs. Biedny, Ritzmann, Vaeni, others. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that these are interesting and odd events, to be taken for what they are, but not necessarily as tiny pieces to a larger puzzle we're carefully placing together.

 

[exo_doc]

Blacknight, is your post an argument for, or against, investigating?
Just because we might not have the intelligence or ability to understand certain phenomena shouldn't mean we can't do any of the things I suggested anyway. my suggestions were meant to stimulate thought into possibilities that could end UFO research stagnation, maybe open up new paths of investigation yet uncovered.
I don't know about final truths or absolute answers, I have no idea if we can or cannot find an answer or answers in a factual way.
But, to me at least, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find answers.

 

[DrLogic]

The subject needs a paradigm shift in order to start moving forward I think. The problem we have is the subject is not taken seriously in mainstream science, this is of course an illogical stance which requires much indoctrination on their part.

If you consider the definition of paranormal is something seemingly out of the ordinary that does not have a scientific explaination, then paranormal does not real fit this phenomena. A closer denifinition would be a seemingly natural phenomena for which a scientific explaination has not been attempted and in some cases actively refused. So a new word for this phenomena that highlights the fact that it has never received open, pubic and honest investigation based on scientific principals by mainstream institutions would be more appropriate.

The other problem is, we are not even at square one because we have 60 years of noise to wade through, to the point where as a field of study, we are becoming dogmatic in what interpretation of the urban myth we take. With a heavy helping of extremists like LMH, Richard Hoagland, Greer being given far too much rope, when all they are doing is starting off with the answer and then trying to manipulate the equation to suit it.

This is not science.

 

[Gareth]

Enjoyed the episode this week guys. Heres to a good year.

 

[Ally]

I really liked the range of subjects covered in this episode and the music!
David's GENUINE passion about the field is one of the many reasons I like this show. Gene you are great too BTW.

 

[Gareth]

Oh shit. Wrong thread.

 

[Blacknight]

Blacknight, is your post an argument for, or against, investigating?
Just because we might not have the intelligence or ability to understand certain phenomena shouldn't mean we can't do any of the things I suggested anyway. my suggestions were meant to stimulate thought into possibilities that could end UFO research stagnation, maybe open up new paths of investigation yet uncovered.
I don't know about final truths or absolute answers, I have no idea if we can or cannot find an answer or answers in a factual way.
But, to me at least, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find answers.

I think my argument is, given the choices you present, against what passes for investigation in the paranormal arena. I think that 60 years of "research" and "investigation" has only entrenched mindsets while obfuscating possibilities. I don't think I'm suggesting one throw up his hands and not wonder, but I am suggesting that we stop pursuing an end game when we haven't even defined the rules yet. We don't know what UFOs, apparitions, strange creatures, visions, alien abductions, crop circles, etc are--or if they are even physical manifestations--let alone whether there is any connective tissue among them all. What I am reasonably sure of is that most of the people claiming to be researching the paranormal fields are uniquely unqualified to look for answers to what appears to be an amazingly complex and esoteric set of circumstances. There are far too few Valles and far too many hobbyists.

Unless and until the questions are concrete enough to draw in the really informed and open-minded researchers, the involvement of people who are unlikely to see possibilities outside a very narrow field of play will dominate. And I think that's why we are not one step closer to anything even approaching an answer today than we were decades ago, ins spite of our scientific advancements and sophistication.

I think the paranormal is interesting. But I look at it as something I am unlikely to ever fully understand in my lifetime. There are countless things in the physical world we may never fully understand for thousands of years. But we pursue those in methodical and rational ways, and usually rely upon "experts" to do so. That's not typical in paranormal fields and that, I think, is why our knowledge never seems to creep ahead.I have no problem with people looking for answers, as long as they keep a truly educated and open mind in the process. This breathless quest for "an answer" is very counterproductive in many cases. I, on the other hand, am just along for the ride, and I assume that people far brighter, better trained and more capable than me will eventually find "an answer", to which I am incapable of contributing anything more than static. All I'm really saying is that sometimes the best approach is passive observation and open-minded curiosity from the sidelines.

 

[exo_doc]

Ya know guys and gals, I just realized the title of this thread is not what I meant for it to be. I meant for it to be JAN 5, not Dec 4.
I guess my wife is right, I'm addlepatted in the brain pan and absent minded. I'm glad she doesn't read this site.

Anyway, Blacknight, I understand where you are coming from. Answers may not even be there to discover, I get that.
But it is just not in my nature to let things lie. And I actively look for explanations and answers to things that interest me.
For example, it seems to be a well known phenomena that so-called ghosts or spirits create cold spots, make people feel weak, and can sometimes drain batteries and otherwise affect electronic equipment. It has been posited by several researchers that perhaps in order for spirits to interact with the material plane, they need to absorb energy, hence the phenomena.
So, I thought why not make EMF emitters, or even use a Tesla coil, to charge up an areas atmosphere where ghost/spirit activity is known to exist and see what happens.
Could these immaterial entities use that energy to become visible and possibly even interact with us?

It's ideas like that that I am referring too. Ways to investigate things from the outfield, come at it sideways, see what shakes loose.

 

[David Biedny]

Blacknight,

Thanks so much for that post, it really hits the nail on the head.

I would also add the idea that once you've been exposed to the paranormal directly, personally, it seems to take on a totally different meaning which reflects the intent of the experiencer. If someone is looking for a belief system, the experiences seem to take on the trappings of religious dogma, while for others (like myself), it becomes some sort of intellectual/spiritual tug-of-war, never really yielding up exactly what we'd really want - some answers (and I'm not going to assume that there's one unified field theory for this stuff, one single answer that encompasses the vast range of experience formats and variables) and some further understanding of the why of the whole thing. I can definitely understand why some people get seriously emotionally damaged by exposure to the paranormal, it's enough to make you question absolutely everything with varying levels of often unhealthy obsession.

dB

 

[Blacknight]

If someone is looking for a belief system, the experiences seem to take on the trappings of religious dogma, while for others (like myself), it becomes some sort of intellectual/spiritual tug-of-war, never really yielding up exactly what we'd really want - some answers (and I'm not going to assume that there's one unified field theory for this stuff, one single answer that encompasses the vast range of experience formats and variables) and some further understanding of the why of the whole thing.

I can only guess what place I'd be in had I ever observed something that didn't fit my "expectations" of what is supposed to be. What I find disturbing is that there are too many people of integrity and credibility who have seen things that are completely inexplicable by what I think I know to be reality. So I fully accept that I just don't have a good solid grasp of what reality, in fact, is. I don't wring my hands waiting for answers. I'm OK knowing that in the grand scheme of things I'm really much dumber than I would like.

 

[DrLogic]

Is it not possible then that a paranormal experience is a self projection, of which a key design attribute is being 'just outside that realms of understanding', ergo it's paranormal status becomes self perpetuating by definition?

If possible, this would lead to the question, is it a natural external phenomena that our senses augment to suit our definition of paranormal or is it a product of our own minds?

 

[David Biedny]

Is it not possible then that a paranormal experience is a self projection, of which a key design attribute is being 'just outside that realms of understanding', ergo it's paranormal status becomes self perpetuating by definition?

If possible, this would lead to the question, is it a natural external phenomena that our senses augment to suit our definition of paranormal or is it a product of our own minds?

I'm willing to concede that personal experiences leaving no physical evidence might be brain games or projections, but the moment you have multiple witnesses describing the same thing, or unusual physical evidence, you're likely dealing with something that is more real than not. That's why I've primarily only spoken about shared experiences in terms of my own stuff, while avoiding discussion of personal experiences with no tangible evidence, regardless of how real they seemed to me at the time. One exception I made was describing the incident tied to my mother's death, it was intensely physical and complex in a very strange way, and tied right into a set of long discussions I had with my mother while she was still alive. It's in an episode I can't find for some reason (but you can hear my very first discussion of it on another show, the Dead Science podcast, here), and it's one of my more extreme experiences. At the time it happened, I immediately called my assistant and friend, Nathan, to describe exactly what had happened, so I could have another set of ears and brain lobes in on it. Do I have physical proof that would satisfy a researcher? No. Do I have ANY doubts that my recounting of the situation was pretty much exactly what happened? Not a chance. Make of it what you will, it answered some of my questions, and I've shared it in order to help comfort those who have had loved ones pass.

dB

 

[DrLogic]

I'm willing to concede that personal experiences leaving no physical evidence might be brain games or projections, but the moment you have multiple witnesses describing the same thing, or unusual physical evidence, you're likely dealing with something that is more real than not. That's why I've primarily only spoken about shared experiences in terms of my own stuff, while avoiding discussion of personal experiences with no tangible evidence, regardless of how real they seemed to me at the time. One exception I made was describing the incident tied to my mother's death, it was intensely physical and complex in a very strange way, and tied right into a set of long discussions I had with my mother while she was still alive. It's in an episode I can't find for some reason (but you can hear my very first discussion of it on another show, the Dead Science podcast, here), and it's one of my more extreme experiences. At the time it happened, I immediately called my assistant and friend, Nathan, to describe exactly what had happened, so I could have another set of ears and brain lobes in on it. Do I have physical proof that would satisfy a researcher? No. Do I have ANY doubts that my recounting of the situation was pretty much exactly what happened? Not a chance. Make of it what you will, it answered some of my questions, and I've shared it in order to help comfort those who have had loved ones pass.

dB

Thanks for the link David, i will be sure to have a listen to it.

Im glad you brought up the shared experience angle, i was going to say this type of thing, sightings over mexico a quick and easy example, does indeed lean itself towards the 'natural external phenomena'. But also, keeping with the Mexico theme, many of the paranormal events (dwaves for example) do reflect local legend and popular culture within the country.

So perhaps one possible hypothesis that is within the realms of self projection, and to account for the above scenario, would be a person's or a group of peoples ability to manifest such a phenomenon in real terms. I know that sounds 'out there' but we cant prove a negative.

Whilst we live in an age where our cutting edge fields of science are starting to overlap into the world of the philosophical, I am move that happy to believe that our understanding of reality and its purpose is negligable. Pehaps the best we can do is play 'guess who', eliminating the improbable until we are left with the seemingly impossible lol.

 

[Blacknight]

...So perhaps one possible hypothesis that is within the realms of self projection, and to account for the above scenario, would be a person's or a group of peoples ability to manifest such a phenomenon in real terms. I know that sounds 'out there' but we cant prove a negative....

That's good. Multiple witnesses could just as "rationally" be self-manifestations or shared visions as physical, in the sense of our current understanding of the world and the physical sciences. So if we limit our research to what can currently and conveniently fit within our limited knowledge we might just be spinning our wheels, like cavemen explaining sunrise in terms of a god appearing each morning and being proud and confident in that conclusion.

For example, exactly what evidence is there that has led us to the widely-held assumption that UFOs and greys are extraterrestrial? What we have are observations, but far too little evidence to conclude we know what this phenomenon is let alone from where it derives. There are probably 50 possible explanations (some way outside the box), yet we seem to have settled on one or two. Why?

 

[DrLogic]

For example, exactly what evidence is there that has led us to the widely-held assumption that UFOs and greys are extraterrestrial? What we have are observations, but far too little evidence to conclude we know what this phenomenon is let alone from where it derives. There are probably 50 possible explanations (some way outside the box), yet we seem to have settled on one or two. Why?

I think this is the human condition of wanting to put something in a box and label it less it becomes fearful, which, is seemingly a far stronger urge than to find the true nature of a phenomenon.

Something that has fascinated me for a while is a commonly held belief that people believe that the universe is teeming with life, yet when asked do they think we have been visited, the answer is commonly 'no'.

When you delve into the thinking behind this stance, things become interesting. If you follow with the question, 'why do you think they havent', almost always the answer is 'because it is impossible'.

I think that is an incredibly telling response, nothing about motives, just about ones ability to. So who are they actually talking about when they say 'impossible'? We have no way to quantify the abilities of a hypothetical alien race that we know nothing about.

So indeed sadly the responder is actually taking on the assumption that humanity is the most advanced civilization in the universe, and on top of that, denying our own ability to do these things in the distant future, just because of their own lack of forethought to perceive it.

So again sadly, while alot of people appear open minded, it is actually a rather superficial veneer hiding that ever reliable dogmatic, self worshiping arrogance.

Its not until people really start thinking outside the box, at least beyond our own achievements that they might behold the possibilities in this universe.

 

[Blacknight]

...Something that has fascinated me for a while is a commonly held belief that people believe that the universe is teeming with life, yet when asked do they think we have been visited, the answer is commonly 'no'....

I may be one of those. ("May be" because I think it may depend on the day and time I'm asked, and the mood I happen to be nursing at that moment.) But I do accept that the universe is teeming with intelligent life.I don't pretend to fully understand the Drake equation but I accept that there's a hell of a lot of stuff out there and the probability of intelligent life is likely also very large. But the flip side, of course, is that the likelihood of finding us within this haystack of intelligent life must likewise be very small, with all these civilizations spewing "messages" of one form or another into the universe. And if there is so very much intelligent life why would any highly advanced civilization hang around here for, at the least, decades. Surely everything to be learned was learned within a few years, and any agenda other than simple exploration could certainly have been advanced by now.

Whenever I try and apply logic to these matters I come back to my starting point; something inexplicable is going on but it is so far beyond our current capacity to grasp it that we are best served by waiting for science and circumstances to drive the question, not self-dubbed "researchers". I think, as I've said, that many of these researchers only add flotsam to the garbage heap. What I find refreshing about The Paracast is that the hosts and many of the guests take a similar attitude. There's no pretense that there's an answer lurking inside the next guest's trenchcoat. It's a hands-up, "Did you see that?" exploration, rather than a glib effort at "I know what that means!"