Unpopular opinion, the case for non-disclosure…

[Burnt State]

I've always been influenced by Elon Musk's statements about the topic - and he says he hasn't seen any evidence of aliens. And if anyone would know, he would.

What's your take on Bigelow then? Unlike Musk, he actually put in a sincere and concentrated effort with real scientists and cash through NIDS and his days at Skinwalker Ranch, as well as his siphoning of all the UFO reports. He even had Vallee out at the ranch for BBQ's and to plot and plan to catch those pesky paranormal varmits on video. .

Bigelow's public comments regarding aliens contrasts directly with Musk. His public statements included "they're everywhere", and those aliens "are all.right under our noses" Certainly sounds like he was describing paranormal entities based on his informed estimation.

 

[Tyger]

What's your take on Bigelow then? Unlike Musk, he actually put in a sincere and concentrated effort with real scientists and cash through NIDS and his days at Skinwalker Ranch, as well as his siphoning of all the UFO reports. He even had Vallee out at the ranch for BBQ's and to plot and plan to catch those pesky paranormal varmits on video. .

Bigelow's public comments regarding aliens contrasts directly with Musk. His public statements included "they're everywhere", and those aliens "are all.right under our noses" Certainly sounds like he was describing paranormal entities based on his informed estimation.

@Burnt State BTW before I start, I've forgotten how to give a quote but split it up in an answer. How does one do that?

So my 'take' on Bigelow - and especially Skinwalker Ranch. I recall there was something Gene and Chris were doing from Skinwalker - am I recalling that aright? Anyway, Skinwalker is so obviously - to me - totally bogus. That it's still referenced as something legitimate is crazy. I'm more fuzzy on Bigelow, but I think he wanted something to be true. The so-called 'paranormal' - an unfortunate umbrella term - sweeps up all the 'leavings' on the floor - wheat with the chaff. Bottom line, the true 'psychic realm' (whatever that means to whoever) is nothing to mess with. It's a realm of illusions, delusions, and madness. It is highly subjective - the 'phenomena' is self-created. And what we often hear reported are grotesque exaggerations of what someone imagines or thinks is psychic. There is a reason why most all legitimate spiritual teachers warn people to not indulge in that realm.

 

[Randall]

I had said I'd start a new thread - but its not happened. Just to say, I've always been influenced by Elon Musk's statements about the topic - and he says he hasn't seen any evidence of aliens. And if anyone would know, he would.

Well — Musk might not have seen any aliens, but I don't have much doubt that they've seen him — or at least that Roadster he launched into space

 

[Randall]

Ok, if I had to play in that specific sandbox with you and Trajanus . . .

You have been playing in it all along

. . . then I would say that their familiarization program is taking far too long and because of all the mimicry taking place across time I would still end up with the notion that familiarization is not on their list at all. They're just interested in using the disguises of the age so that they can appear to be a part of our reality.

Yep. I mean okay sure — maybe familiarization is on some alien's priority list someplace. My point is still that we don't really know.

It's Whitley and a few others that are really promoting the notion that UFO's are somehow connected to the human dead.

I've read a couple of his books, but don't recall anything about that. The Google AI says Strieber thinks that some aliens might be ghosts, but that he's not sure. Personally — because I don't believe ghosts in the classical sense are possible — I think Strieber hasn't really thought it through.

But let me throw this wrench into the system. There is a very distinct history of individual paranormal phenomena across time: mediumship, ghosts, faeries, cryptozoology, UFO's etc. However, we also see intersections of these phenomena as well as the hitchhiker effect where exposure to one phenomenon results in experiencers and those living with them experiencing other phenomena subsequent to the initial event. Can we really separate one from the other? Are they all part of the same sandbox?

I think it's possible that virtually all the phenomena mentioned could be cooked-up by aliens as part of their experiments. For that matter, most of them could nowadays be cooked-up by us. That's why I don't pay much attention to any of it anymore. I'm more interested in the toxic stuff humans are doing to themselves and why so many people are so keen to get onboard with it — but that would be another thread.

I doubt the PTB have any more insights than witnesses or groups dedicated to their study.

The thing is — the PTB have dedicated themselves to the study, all the way back to the early 1940s, and they've had all the best stuff at their disposal to monitor the situation. In fact — most of the best evidence has come from declassified government documents. I mean think about it — they've got satellites orbiting out past the orbit of the Moon watching everything that goes on. I have zero doubt that they've got crystal clear images and a whole lot more.

There's no disclosure because no one knows what to disclose. While I agree with you that their reality is not up for debate , the nature of their reality remains in question IMHO.

Well the nature of reality is always up for debate. I doubt that even the aliens have that one figured out.

The ETH appears and absurd and non-senwical by design. They have the tech to be invisible, yet they want to be seen, not always by the masses and more often in ways that are more clandestine and about repetition and obfuscation than anything else. Shouldn't the path of familiarization be a more consistent one that expands in a recognizable trajectory across time? Shouldn't we also acknowledge that the witness is more responsible for whatever suspicions we have of the source than the source itself?

I completely agree.

Ok, if aliens really are visiting us from outer space then Stanton's notion of our planet being a PhD study zone makes sense, hence the repetition of soil samples and bagging and tagging us.

Yep.

What doesn't make sense is why bother showing themselves?

Like I've been saying, it's parallel to the way we study the wildlife here — and to them, we're just part of the wildlife. When doing our studies, we don't have to show ourselves either, but sometimes we do. Sometimes it's on purpose to gauge a reaction. Other times is purely coincidental. Other times it's not relevant to the circumstances. And then it seems that multiple types ( species, races, or whatever ) of aliens are in play.

If it's about familiarization then it's about Charles Fort and we are in fact someone else's property and they like to mess with us because they can , because it suits them, because they are like gods compared to us. I would also highlight that they are expecting us to become familiar with paradox for they are both the divine space brother, evil torturer and incompetent robot/entity all at the same time.

Perhaps that's all some part of the much bigger picture. I don't know. Sometimes I think that we in the field ( so to speak ) get so wrapped-up in all the theorizing about what we don't know, that we forget how extraordinary what we do know is. The big debate has moved from whether or not they're real at all, to what have they been doing here?

We've been waiting for that to happen for decades, and although there will always be the die-hard skeptics, it feels like the tide has finally shifted.

 

[Trajanus]

In order to get a purchase on the discussion I prefer to use the best of research that has come before us. The dividing line between experiential and event anomalies are made quite clear by Clark. One we can use to scratch our heads with and add it to a compendium of strange tales, and the other we can actually analyse.

Physical evidence may be the best but witness testimony shouldn't be ignored.

That's why it's all called paranormal - it runs parallel to our reality. It doesn't mean it's from outer space, and definitely does not negate earthbound origins.

Our understanding of reality. A more advanced civilization can appear very "magical" to one more primitive.

That also runs contrary to what witnesses say. You can't accept all credible witness testimony as valid but then dismiss the many who speak of kindness and love and "look after your planet" as the message and nature of the "aliens".

I certainly don't. "Look after your planet" is just a scam to get us to see aliens as not associated with governments as it's implied criticism of them. In many other ways the purpose of the deception is clearer.

Ok so these are two little known witness events, nothing with any concrete proof.

Little known doesn't mean of no significance.

Doug and Dave, the circle makers, are an extremely well known duo who claimed responsibility for the majority of the first big wave of circle patterns. It's pretty simple stuff and doesn't require a lot of accuracy when making what appears to be exquisite designs in the field.

They've been known a very long time. Even assuming they're responsible for some, there are hoaxes in every field.

I hold to a position of non-belief, so that I can remain open to possibilities in this discussion. That can never find common ground with believers in aliens from outer space. Imho there have been some interesting observations and theories from McDonald, Hynek, Michel, Vallee, Clark, the demonologist Keel, Randle and Swords. Those are still good people to read.

Randle certainly is, on the subject of Roswell at least.

[Burnt State:]As a final comment for me on this discussion, since we are both dug in and spinning our wheels with each other, Hynek, at the end of his days suspected that elementals were responsible for the UFO conundrum. First he started as being critical of the whole thing as a mouthpiece for the military, and then saw, through the lens of science with Vallee at his side, that in fact there was a genuine mystery present, to arriving at the conclusion that earth bound spirits, the equivalent of faeries, were behind it all. After a lifetime of seeking what a strange place for a man of science to end upon.[/quote]

Lol, indeed. Our visitors are so deceptive it's no wonder so many people despair of ever finding the truth. As I've said, this situation results from deliberate alien policy--while slowly familiarizing us with them they don't want us to be certain of their reality yet, hence greatly muddle the picture with a lot of weirdness.

 

[Burnt State]

I've forgotten how to give a quote but split it up in an answer. How does one do that?

I had forgotten myself. Highlight a chunk of text from the OP and then hit the +quote button. Do this as often as you like. Then go to the message area at the motton of the thread and click inside there and click the insert quotes button. All your quotes you highlighted will be there and then hit that button and all those quotes will show up in the text box to respond to.

I recall there was something Gene and Chris were doing from Skinwalker - am I recalling that aright?

Chris was the first investigator on the scene to work with the family before it got bought by Bigelow. He reported some truly bizarre anomalous events from the ranch with great conviction.

That it's still referenced as something legitimate is crazy.

I think you might want to look into this again. I read the NIDS reports and they were pretty bizarre, especially the cattle mutilation paper. Colm Kelleher headed up that research team and if Vallee was there it wasn't just to roast wienies over the fire. Paranormal events were documented including the infamous camera wires being caught on video shorting themselves. I also believe it was at Skinwalker where Chris reported the one witness seeing dogman leaning against a tree smoking a cigarette - one of my top ten paranormal reports for sure. Recent TV shows obsessed with the ranch may be just commercial paranormal crap, but the original source is more than just curious.

Bottom line, the true 'psychic realm' (whatever that means to whoever) is nothing to mess with.

This I definitely agree with. (Btw at Skinwalker hitchhiker effects were reported by some security guards who also saw strange events.) Having read substantially on various paranormal cases, and having participated in some, I can truly say that it is a dangerous space. It can and will drive you mad - just ask Ray Fowler. It is not something I would advise anyone to turn their mind to for very long or engage directly in paranormal experimentation. As George Hansen has documented many times over: you mess with the trickster and it will mess with you back in unrelenting fashion.

Which then leads to another interesting space, not directly associated with this thread, but worth pointing out. There is ample documentation of a relationship between paranormal events and the lives of witnesses also being in turmoil at the same time, often intersecting with fear. But even here, skeptical me wonders just how often is it that relatives of the recently deceased, for example, experience ghost like events spontaneously because their own brain prompts it - an internal echo effect while our brain sits in default network mode and it just provides us with experiences we think are external but are entirely internal events - natural hallucinations etc. Is this the place where the hitchhiker effect comes from I wonder?

And then to tie this back to disclosure, it's not a wonder that Keel focussed on demonology, driving himself paranoid, or that there is a distinct theme in Ufology that focuses on evil demons. How much of that description is created by the witness/experiencer/researcher and is that why it becomes socially restricted as a consequence?

 

[Tyger]

I had forgotten myself. Highlight a chunk of text from the OP and then hit the +quote button. Do this as often as you like. Then go to the message area at the motton of the thread and click inside there and click the insert quotes button. All your quotes you highlighted will be there and then hit that button and all those quotes will show up in the text box to respond to.

Chris was the first investigator on the scene to work with the family before it got bought by Bigelow. He reported some truly bizarre anomalous events from the ranch with great conviction.

I think you might want to look into this again. I read the NIDS reports and they were pretty bizarre, especially the cattle mutilation paper. Colm Kelleher headed up that research team and if Vallee was there it wasn't just to roast wienies over the fire. Paranormal events were documented including the infamous camera wires being caught on video shorting themselves. I also believe it was at Skinwalker where Chris reported the one witness seeing dogman leaning against a tree smoking a cigarette - one of my top ten paranormal reports for sure. Recent TV shows obsessed with the ranch may be just commercial paranormal crap, but the original source is more than just curious.

This I definitely agree with. (Btw at Skinwalker hitchhiker effects were reported by some security guards who also saw strange events.) Having read substantially on various paranormal cases, and having participated in some, I can truly say that it is a dangerous space. It can and will drive you mad - just ask Ray Fowler. It is not something I would advise anyone to turn their mind to for very long or engage directly in paranormal experimentation. As George Hansen has documented many times over: you mess with the trickster and it will mess with you back in unrelenting fashion.

Which then leads to another interesting space, not directly associated with this thread, but worth pointing out. There is ample documentation of a relationship between paranormal events and the lives of witnesses also being in turmoil at the same time, often intersecting with fear. But even here, skeptical me wonders just how often is it that relatives of the recently deceased, for example, experience ghost like events spontaneously because their own brain prompts it - an internal echo effect while our brain sits in default network mode and it just provides us with experiences we think are external but are entirely internal events - natural hallucinations etc. Is this the place where the hitchhiker effect comes from I wonder?

And then to tie this back to disclosure, it's not a wonder that Keel focussed on demonology, driving himself paranoid, or that there is a distinct theme in Ufology that focuses on evil demons. How much of that description is created by the witness/experiencer/researcher and is that why it becomes socially restricted as a consequence?

 

[Tyger]

@Burnt State Oh lawsy me! I just spent a good long time answering your post. I wound up going back into the post to add some stuff - took a lot of time - and when I hit 'post' I was told I'd past the 15 minute editing window - and I have subsequently lost the entire reply except for what I quoted - ach!!!! I am not a happy camper! It will be a while before I get back on here to post a reply. Criminies! But I will do eventually.

Maybe it's for the best as it was a very deep answer I was giving. Needs more thought.

 

[Randall]

@Burnt State Oh lawsy me! I just spent a good long time answering your post. I wound up going back into the post to add some stuff - took a lot of time - and when I hit 'post' I was told I'd past the 15 minute editing window - and I have subsequently lost the entire reply except for what I quoted - ach!!!! I am not a happy camper! It will be a while before I get back on here to post a reply. Criminies! But I will do eventually.

Maybe it's for the best as it was a very deep answer I was giving. Needs more thought.

TIP: I feel for you — t sucks when that happens. After it happened to me a few times, I learned to highlight and copy longer replies before hitting "Post reply" so that if necessary, I can paste it back into a separate post along with a link to the original. That has saved me many times now. It's probably a hassle to do that on a phone, but I still use my trusty old Win7 PC — so it literally takes about 2 seconds. Sometimes I've gotten lucky using the back button too — but it doesn't work on all platforms.

Looking forward to reading your post !

 

[Burnt State]

@Tyger I was just going to say the same thing as Randall. I remember losing big messages that I laboured over before. My workaround was to actually do the larger technical messages elsewhere and then paste it in.

I will just have to receive the messages telepathically instead I guess

 

[Tyger]

@Tyger I was just going to say the same thing as Randall. I remember losing big messages that I laboured over before. My workaround was to actually do the larger technical messages elsewhere and then paste it in.

I will just have to receive the messages telepathically instead I guess

Thank you @Randall and @Burnt State ! I will try, though I'm becoming challenged by 'complicated' directions sad to say - though part of it is me refusing to 'go along' with techie stuff. Or so I rationalize to myself. A kind of 'teenage rebellion' in reverse. Ha!

@Burnt State That is exactly what I've decided I need to do - compose my responses elsewhere, where I can linger over the nuances for the requisite hours I seem to need, and then copy-and-paste the answer in here. I'll do that though hard to say when I'll tackle this particular answer again. It was such a well-crafted answer - I'm in grieving mode for the time being.

Telepathy works for me.

 

[Paranormal bug a boo]

Thanks for your "two cents" — an excellent example of what constitutes constructive discussion. While your essay makes several valid points and observations, my takeaway from it is that it has more to do with how humans in general have historically behaved toward themselves and other species on the planet, and by extension how they might behave to open interaction with aliens, rather than whether or not present day society could, "absorb the psychological impact" of such interaction.

As mentioned in a previous post, according to polls, enough people are plenty prepared psychologically, and the rest don't seem to care much either way so long as they can get to work on time. There have even been attempts for decades to make contact happen via various SETI initiatives. How positive or negative the effect would be also depends on details that aren't known. This is explored in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End. It's available as a book, movie, and even an audiobook dramatization.

One point that Childhood's end makes ( without giving away too much ) is that how well Earthlings can adapt to an alien presence might be largely irrelevant to some aliens. As usual, we look at the problem from our perspective as the most important variable in the equation, when we might not have the capacity to comprehend it, or realize that it only takes us into account for their purposes — not ours.

​

Many thanks for the feedback. It’s interesting that in my opinion that first contact would be such a black swan event that it’s very difficult to predict what mankind in its entirety would react. There’s no historical examples of such a thing only our interactions with ourselves. I guess that’s why we chat about it. Thanks for keeping the conversation going. Have a great one.

 

[Burnt State]

Many thanks for the feedback. It’s interesting that in my opinion that first contact would be such a black swan event that it’s very difficult to predict what mankind in its entirety would react. There’s no historical examples of such a thing only our interactions with ourselves. I guess that’s why we chat about it. Thanks for keeping the conversation going. Have a great one.

Generally speaking, using human history as an example, whenever a technologically advanced culture makes contact with a culture originally isolated from the visitors, the result is disastrous: death, disease, and the dissolution and/or outright destruction of that culture. North and South American indigenous populations got wiped out thanks to smallpox, Catholicism and colonialism. I find the most disturbing part is the burning of the Mayan Codexes by the priests coming to claim those Mayan souls. Also tragic is the interruption of all these cultures that were just starting to move towards nationhood at the time of major contact. I always wonder what might have happened on this side of the Atlantic if Europe never decided to settle down and exploit everything here.


Perhaps the constant distance between us and the visitors here on earth as Whitley Strieber likes to call them, is about their recognition that nothing good can possibly come of a very advanced culture meeting us plebes here on earth....that's if you believe they are aliens from outer space.