Unpopular opinion, the case for non-disclosure…

[Randall]

My cynicism comes into play in these areas.

Cynicism is an essential survival skill

 

[Randall]

I’ve been following the UFO enigma since the early 1970s. As a young man, I was very naïve regarding the ramifications of first contact.
After a lifetime in this society and looking at our world as a whole. I am convinced that human society could not absorb the psychological impact of first contact, especially if they are already among us.
I see absolutely nothing that convinces me with any reasonable assurance that our society could acquiesce into a subordinate role to any capacity… it seems to me that many of the people who clammer the same people that support mass deportation and refused to learn a second language. These people seem ill equipped to be able to deal with an alien extraterrestrial presence.
I’ve written a short essay regarding this. I’ll try to attach it if anyone is interested AnyWho, that’s my two cents. Thanks for having the forum here. Take care.

Thanks for your "two cents" — an excellent example of what constitutes constructive discussion. While your essay makes several valid points and observations, my takeaway from it is that it has more to do with how humans in general have historically behaved toward themselves and other species on the planet, and by extension how they might behave to open interaction with aliens, rather than whether or not present day society could, "absorb the psychological impact" of such interaction.

As mentioned in a previous post, according to polls, enough people are plenty prepared psychologically, and the rest don't seem to care much either way so long as they can get to work on time. There have even been attempts for decades to make contact happen via various SETI initiatives. How positive or negative the effect would be also depends on details that aren't known. This is explored in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End. It's available as a book, movie, and even an audiobook dramatization.

One point that Childhood's end makes ( without giving away too much ) is that how well Earthlings can adapt to an alien presence might be largely irrelevant to some aliens. As usual, we look at the problem from our perspective as the most important variable in the equation, when we might not have the capacity to comprehend it, or realize that it only takes us into account for their purposes — not ours.

​

 

[Trajanus]

In 2019, 73% of Americans said they believed in the existence of UFOs, while 33% said they believed in the existence of extraterrestrial beings. This indicates that a significant portion of the American population is open to the idea of alien visitation — and IMO most of the rest would either quickly adapt or just think it doesn't really matter.

A "significant proportion" (33%) indicates progress has been made but it's not adequate. Maybe around 80--90%. And just because a person believes aliens exist doesn't necessarily mean he's ready to accept their presence here calmly--if or when it's openly acknowledged.

I don't think anybody knows "the full truth", and those who think they do are deluding themselves the same way that religious fanatics do.

There are good grounds for thinking the government knows a great deal, and safe to assume its reluctance to reveal it is based on this knowledge.

Even if the aliens openly revealed themselves and held a press conference — we still wouldn't know "the full truth".

Depends on their veracity--which generally hasn't been very good, based on what some contactees have been told--and how much they revealed.

You've got me curious though — what do you think "the full truth" is about "what they want revealed"?
What do you base it on?

I meant the full truth about what the government has steadfastly concealed. I'm not sure of the source, maybe the book A.D. There are grounds for believing advanced ETs represent a system in ways diametrically different from our own, so that emulation would likely require a radical transformation of existing institutions and beliefs. There was a report of a US President--Carter IIRC-- weeping after a top secret briefing on the subject.

 

[Burnt State]

Ok that Rogan stuff is all improvisational poppycock. The only thing that came close to making sense was "take magic mushrooms to make more love and peace in the world". Unfortunately I do not own an aura ring nor a hyperbaric chamber to test his theories that he is 100% certain of. I would qualify him as "mostly harmless".

James Madden Philosopher on Down The Rabbit Hole UFO podcast

This is a much better Rabbit Hole for you to dive into. The early phase of this podcast had some fascinating moments exploring the topic from different angles and disciplines, which was refreshing. Since its commercialization and focus on TV productions it's lost its way down the money making rabbit hole.

The episode where Pasulka and Madden just riff with each other really is entertaining, and at least provides some good academic meat on the bone for The UFO discussion through a different lens. No real discoveries, but at least some better and new musings for the brain to contemplate regarding UFO phenomena.

I haven't been this interested in the topic since I first encountered Bruce Duensing and his many metaphors of the paranormal.

A Transit of Contingencies

 

[JamesT]

I like your definition of following The Subject as it really matches mine especially the Vallee points. I think Trinity just sit too well into his paradigm of interpretation but what a big mistake that was.

However, ar times I have gone while hog into the subject inside the context of working with other ufologists off the books and at the end of the day I'm still finding that Jerry Clark makes the most sense to me. We have no idea what it is and so we definitely can't start talking about its intentions.

The American Military Industrial Complex has always kept it really close to its chest. They have kept their own serious science around the phenomena off books for the last 75 years.

I think their lack of sharing with the masses amounts to more of a complete and utter lack of understanding as to the origins of the phenomena whose technology is way out of our league.

They seem to hold to the principle that if it's not a threat then there's not much to do about it. And if we can't explain it then there's no point in telling the public anything about it. Why create confusion? Let's just keep up the illusion of control.

Everyone who has followed ufology/ufoology for any significant amount of time should recognize that the gatekeepers who probably have some really mind blowing evidence are doing some shady versions of disclosure (Elizondo and his myth of being the leader of a UAP team) not for the benefit of the masses, but for other purposes altogether, as they always have.

Yes indeed - concur with your take on this curious field. How naive we all were decades ago to perennially hope that next year will be the year when the mystery is solved … and so the best goes on And yes totally agree re: Jerome Clark ….definitely one of the finest chroniclers/commentators in this field - his ufo encyclopaedia was wonderful

 

[JamesT]

Yes indeed - concur with your take on this curious field. How naive we all were decades ago to perennially hope that next year will be the year when the mystery is solved … and so the best goes on And yes totally agree re: Jerome Clark ….definitely one of the finest chroniclers/commentators in this field - his ufo encyclopaedia was wonderful

Beat

 

[Randall]

A "significant proportion" (33%) indicates progress has been made but it's not adequate. Maybe around 80--90%.

The 33% represents those polled on belief and extrapolated out — that's full one third. Many more are perfectly ready to psychologically accept it with minimal adaptation because they've been so inundated with it — and the rest don't care one way or the other. The only people that couldn't wrap their heads around it would be a few die-hard skeptics, religious dogmatists, and primitives still living in jungles.

And just because a person believes aliens exist doesn't necessarily mean he's ready to accept their presence here calmly--if or when it's openly acknowledged.

Nobody says acceptance has to be "calm". Humans get worked-up about all kinds of things, but they don't all run off and bury their heads in the sand because they can't take the psychological shock. They'd just do their best to carry-on with life as usual and cope with whatever practical changes there would be in their lives.

There are good grounds for thinking the government knows a great deal, and safe to assume its reluctance to reveal it is based on this knowledge.

Let's not forget that the War oF The Worlds scenario was in the context of an all-out military type invasion broadcast on radios nearly 90 years ago. A lot has changed since then. However, I do agree that certain Governmental agencies know way more than the average citizen. I just think that the reason they don't disclose it has more to do with how they know, than what they know.

Like I keep saying, we ( the people ) already know alien visitation is a reality, and I've seen no indication in any non-believer I've ever interacted with that their heads would suddenly explode if they were faced with the reality on the evening news.

Depends on their veracity--which generally hasn't been very good, based on what some contactees have been told--and how much they revealed.

Agreed. But for the sake of discussion, even if the aliens claimed total transparency, how would the average person go about verifying it? It would be a nearly impossible task. The best we could do is accept a mothership tour and a visit to Xenu ( or wherever they're from ) — and even then we'd only get a superficial idea about the situation.

I meant the full truth about what the government has steadfastly concealed. I'm not sure of the source, maybe the book A.D. There are grounds for believing advanced ETs represent a system in ways diametrically different from our own, so that emulation would likely require a radical transformation of existing institutions and beliefs. There was a report of a US President--Carter IIRC-- weeping after a top secret briefing on the subject.

So you're not claiming that you have any personal insider or contactee type of insight into whatever the "full truth" is? You're just speculating along with the rest of us. Fair enough — and it might go a lot like you suggest. I certainly don't know. My perspective is based on certain suppositions that might or might not be very accurate.

For example, I tend to think that due to the limited open interaction so far, that the aliens don't have the capacity or motivation to launch a full scale sustained planetary invasion, and that they're more analogous to well funded naturalists here on Earth who go out into remote locations with relatively advanced technology to study the wildlife.

But who knows? Maybe that's just part of an environmental assessment required by the Bureau of Galactic Sustainability before they strip-mine the planet for dilithium crystals.

 

[Trajanus]

The 33% represents those polled on belief and extrapolated out — that's full one third. Many more are perfectly ready to psychologically accept it with minimal adaptation because they've been so inundated with it — and the rest don't care one way or the other.

Way too optimistic in my opinion.

The only people that couldn't wrap their heads around it would be a few die-hard skeptics, religious dogmatists, and primitives still living in jungles.

Sure, once familiarization is deemed complete.

Nobody says acceptance has to be "calm". Humans get worked-up about all kinds of things, but they don't all run off and bury their heads in the sand because they can't take the psychological shock. They'd just do their best to carry-on with life as usual and cope with whatever practical changes there would be in their lives.

But this is different--fear of the unknown, and not just any unknown but advanced alien beings with incredible powers. That's why there's familiarization, to reduce the ultimate shock of a revelation.

Let's not forget that the War oF The Worlds scenario was in the context of an all-out military type invasion broadcast on radios nearly 90 years ago. A lot has changed since then. However, I do agree that certain Governmental agencies know way more than the average citizen. I just think that the reason they don't disclose it has more to do with how they know, than what they know.

They know because of the evidence they confiscated in '47--nothing shocking about a retrieval operation, or radar sightings etc. What they know could undermine current beliefs even in people don't actually panic.

Like I keep saying, we ( the people ) already know alien visitation is a reality, and I've seen no indication in any non-believer I've ever interacted with that their heads would suddenly explode if they were faced with the reality on the evening news.

Na, the bulk of people don't fully accept ET here. Lots of people incline toward belief but I don't think they've really internalized this reality. They're not fully ready, and I think we can assume ETs and the government concur, judging by their policies to date....And they're in a better position to know than lay people.

For example, I tend to think that due to the limited open interaction so far, that the aliens don't have the capacity or motivation to launch a full scale sustained planetary invasion, and that they're more analogous to well funded naturalists here on Earth who go out into remote locations with relatively advanced technology to study the wildlife.

I just don't buy that. Had mere study been their purpose, I don't think there'd be a UFO phenomenon. Remember back in '64 in his Anatomy... book Vallee noted that a single craft absorbent to both light and radar could collect all needed data without us even knowing about them. Yet the phenomenon obviously wants to be seen and recognized as ET. Brightly lighted craft, strange--looking, obviously nonhuman entities...Familiarization must be the purpose.

 

[Randall]

Remember back in '64 in his Anatomy... book Vallee noted that a single craft absorbent to both light and radar could collect all needed data without us even knowing about them. Yet the phenomenon obviously wants to be seen and recognized as ET. Brightly lighted craft, strange--looking, obviously nonhuman entities...Familiarization must be the purpose.

Note that I didn't include the rest of your post because I take no issue with it. All valid speculation and everyone is entitled their opinions. This last bit ( above ) is a bit more interesting. I agree with you that in some cases the aliens want us to notice them, but in those cases that also requires them to monitor our response to them — which is the same as studying our reaction to them.

The point is that the only way for them to have absolutely no interest in studying us is to have no reason for displaying themselves other than as a byproduct of their presence. So which is it? If they want us to become familiarized, that necessitates some sort of monitoring a.k.a. study, and if they don't care, then they have no real interest in us being familiarized with them either.

The only logical resolve is that some cases of exposure are deliberate — and some aren't. We humans behave this way when studying the wildlife here all the time. Sometimes we watch from miles away with high powered lenses and the animals have no idea they're being watched. Other times we fly over them in helicopters, tranquilize them, take them to a lab, tag them, and let them go again.

In the latter case, sometimes that's the only way to do that type of research. You need samples and physical access. It can't all be done as if by magic, and even if some aliens can — it's entirely reasonable to suggest that not all of them have that ability. Our biology might be as alien to them as theirs is to us. It's not safe to assume that they all have god-like superpowers or an equivalent understanding of us as our doctors do.

In fact — it seems that our level of medical care exceeds the capacity of some aliens, while others do seem to have some sort of super healing powers. There's a range. It's not safe to make sweeping generalizations. If you do, there will almost certainly be something that will come back to bite you later. That's what makes the subject so interesting. It's part of the "trickster" phenomenon ( as COB used to call it ).

 

[Burnt State]

In the latter case, sometimes that's the only way to do that type of research. You need samples and physical access. It can't all be done as if by magic, and even if some aliens can — it's entirely reasonable to suggest that not all of them have that ability. Our biology might be as alien to them as theirs is to us. It's not safe to assume that they all have god-like superpowers or equivalent technology.

I don't understand this thinking. They've mastered the physics and biology of interstellar travel but they can't send a nano probe into my bedroom to get a blood sample from me in-between my snoring? And the same goes for every alien seen outside the ship gathering a soil sample for the humans to watch as they then scurry back into their ship.

I can possibly go along with Symington lending them a jug of water while they're making pancakes; because, it's expedient, but trying to abduct people with sea mines? It just doesn't make any sense at all. In fact why even bother sending manned ships into outer space when space travel is dangerous stuff?

Why not just make it all digital and robotic? Does the interstellar package need to be any bigger than a football? What's up with all these super mother ships the size of football fields and all the little scout ships that fly in formation or merge together and then dissolve into the big blob?

Their tech is in fact like magic compared to ours I. They don't need any star maps pulled down on the roller chart or suction cups to get at our sperm. They have never ever needed to have themselves on display but they sure like to make a big show of it every now and then for a select audience.


Like is this some kind of alien cruise ship where if you pay out enough quatloos you and your little grey kids can tour the northern territories of Canada and see maybe 6 or 7 humanoids?

 

[Randall]

I don't understand this thinking. They've mastered the physics and biology of interstellar travel but they can't send a nano probe into my bedroom to get a blood sample from me in-between my snoring? And the same goes for every alien seen outside the ship gathering a soil sample for the humans to watch as they then scurry back into their ship.

I can possibly go along with Symington lending them a jug of water while they're making pancakes; because, it's expedient, but trying to abduct people with sea mines? It just doesn't make any sense at all. In fact why even bother sending manned ships into outer space when space travel is dangerous stuff?

Why not just make it all digital and robotic? Does the interstellar package need to be any bigger than a football? What's up with all these super mother ships the size of football fields and all the little scout ships that fly in formation or merge together and then dissolve into the big blob?

To me it's not hard to understand why some aliens might not have the same technological capacity or knowledge in certain areas as we do — especially knowledge specific to us that has taken thousands of years of experience and study being us here on Earth to get a grasp on.

Their tech is in fact like magic compared to ours.

Their transportation tech is most certainly more advanced, but for all we really know, they just stumbled on it the same way our own science has stumbled on some discoveries, and that it was so useful to them that it stunted other types of technology we have had to invent in order to compensate.

I know we've heard the rumors about back engineering alien tech that led to things like semiconductors, but having looked into them from a mainstream science perspective, it's clear to me that humans came-up with our tech all on their own. At best, maybe some of it has been inspired by sci-fi — but we don't need real aliens for that.

Consequently, maybe us being able to produce microchips with 4 trillion transistors on them is totally miraculous to them. Maybe us having mapped the human genome down to the molecular scale is equally beyond their grasp. Maybe apart from natural telepathy and building really fast big ships, they're really not that advanced, Maybe they're like the Pakled . . .

They don't need any star maps pulled down on the roller chart or suction cups to get at our sperm. They have never ever needed to have themselves on display but they sure like to make a big show of it every now and then for a select audience.


Like is this some kind of alien cruise ship where if you pay out enough quatloos you and your little grey kids can tour the northern territories of Canada and see maybe 6 or 7 humanoids?

Maybe — Whatever the case, the Fox lake case is a really interesting one !

 

[Burnt State]

Their transportation tech is most certainly more advanced, but for all we really know, they just stumbled on it the same way our own science has stumbled on some discoveries, and that it was so useful to them that it stunted other types of technology we have had to invent in order to compensate.

That's just not how technological progress works. Sure, some stuff happens accidentally in the lab, but all the big stuff we've done from digital computing, to laser surgery, rockets and explosives all have a very specific lineage. As a generation like yours that has seen dial phones and old school typewriters turn into cell phones, you know how these inventions evolve.

To me it's not hard to understand why some aliens might not have the same technological capacity or knowledge in certain areas as we do — especially knowledge specific to us that has taken thousands of years of experience and study being us here on Earth to get a grasp on.

If you've mastered interstellar travel then odds are you know how to make a really tiny drone the size of an insect go get your soil and DNA samples for you. They don't have to reveal themselves at all but they do so all the damn time.

And what's more infuriating is that they do so in waves and patterns and in absolutely extraordinary technological displays for often a very small audience,or for the masses over a period of focused time in one location.

If there's any discussion to be had about intentionality I think these are some options:

If you're a hardcore materialist who takes all witness testimony as verbatim then the spaceship occupants are entirely absurd and using grade school techniques for our benefit (or you might call this an effort towards familiarization as some people interpret).

Or if you believe in the idea of Experience Anomalies a la Jerome Clark, then what gets codified and interpreted in the mind of the witness while in Oz is really just the best dream logic that brain can muster with the cultural front loading it has.

Either way, those two little people really wanted to be seen by Lonnie Zamora collecting their dirt and displaying their insignia. And he sure wasn't in Oz, and they left some physical evidence behind so that sure points to something intentional.

I dunno, maybe @Trajanus is right and they just want to appear as really benign and skittish national geographic explorers at one moment and then stalling your vehicles, pointing electric stun wands at you, blasting your chest with exhaust fumes, setting your small child's head on fire or sampling your blood with beams of light and making you sick in the next moment. It certainly is hard to separate such a diversity of motives that can often appear friendly or indifferently violent towards us, using both low and high tech in such overt manners. It's a gong show.

P.S. I don't think Star Trek idiot aliens can provide us with accurate insight into what is behind the phenomena. It's all way weirder than any of that.

 

[Trajanus]

I agree with you that in some cases the aliens want us to notice them, but in those cases that also requires them to monitor our response to them — which is the same as studying our reaction to them.

No, I've long thought witnesses are carefully selected beforehand, to help further familiarization. That is, the ETs appear before, or abduct, people who are credible and hence will be believed. The idea is not to see what witness reaction is, but to use witnesses to further their goal.

If they want us to become familiarized, that necessitates some sort of monitoring a.k.a. study,

Basically IMO aliens were finished with basic research of this planet and our species long ago. They've long had enough info to move on to the phase(s) of intervention, based on their knowledge and longterm agenda. True, they may need to obtain additional data on certain individuals of a new generation for e.g. witness suitability. But generally study is a thing of the past.

Our biology might be as alien to them as theirs is to us.

I doubt. As far as I know, earthlike conditions are considered a prerequisite to habitability so similar evolutionary outcomes sound reasonable. Btw many reported beings, while looking decidedly nonhuman are almost certainly fake or not naturally evolved but creations to reinforce the notion of unearthly visitors. Some may be AI.

It's not safe to assume that they all have god-like superpowers or an equivalent understanding of us as our doctors do.

Any civilization able to traverse interstellar distances is very likely to be generally far advanced.

In fact — it seems that our level of medical care exceeds the capacity of some aliens, while others do seem to have some sort of super healing powers.

The latter is real IMO but the former is deceptive. The Alien Grand Design gives reasons for occasional "dumbing down."

 

[Trajanus]

If you've mastered interstellar travel then odds are you know how to make a really tiny drone the size of an insect go get your soil and DNA samples for you. They don't have to reveal themselves at all but they do so all the damn time.

Right and for what reason other than to get us slowly used to the idea of visitors?

Either way, those two little people really wanted to be seen by Lonnie Zamora collecting their dirt and displaying their insignia. And he sure wasn't in Oz, and they left some physical evidence behind so that sure points to something intentional.

Sure.

I dunno, maybe @Trajanus is right and they just want to appear as really benign and skittish national geographic explorers at one moment and then stalling your vehicles...

Familiarization doesn't require benevolence or malevolence just showing themselves. What they do needn't matter much although malevolence serves other purposes besides familiarization.

 

[Burnt State]

No, I've long thought witnesses are carefully selected beforehand, to help further familiarization. That is, the ETs appear before, or abduct, people who are credible and hence will be believed. The idea is not to see what witness reaction is, but to use witnesses to further their goal.

That may be a thought, but it completely contradicts who witnesses are. They are a total cross section of society with regards to age, gender, education and profession. Reporting by witnesses are sketchy at best, with a small percentage of witnesses actually reporting what they've seen. Sometimes they show up out in the middle of nowhere to one person, and then they touch down in the schoolyard to everyone in the building, adults and kids alike.

Malevolent treatment of witnesses certainly doesn't encourage reporting or believability. If abductions are real then witnesses struggle to convince anyone of the reality of aliens from space when they start talking about having their arms severed from their bodies and then later reattached.

Basically IMO aliens were finished with basic research of this planet and our species long ago. They've long had enough info to move on to the phase(s) of intervention, based on their knowledge and longterm agenda. True, they may need to obtain additional data on certain individuals of a new generation for e.g. witness suitability. But generally study is a thing of the past.

Ok so what's up with the myriad or different alien species being reported by witnesses: greys, Nordics, lizards, dwarves, robots, blobs of jelly, floating elves, giant hairy beasts, enormous catfish wearing boots etc....Is there an intergalactic council that is getting together to decide what to do next with earth, which witnesses to appear in front of etc.? How does this whole familiarization thing work? If some are AI and others aren't do they get the same vote on the council when they decided to appear in front of Strieber and then his kid?

And why is the message so inconsistent? Why are they willing to squash us, impregnate us, operate on us, steal our embryos, warn us about the dangers of technology, appear as utterly incompetent when trying to abduct us and other times can easily float us right through walls and into their ships? How does all of that fit into some kind of focussed agenda?

 

[Randall]

No, I've long thought witnesses are carefully selected beforehand, to help further familiarization.

Well if they're "carefully selected" ( as you suggest ), then it isn't just done willy-nilly at random — but based on some sort of criteria which necessitates some kind of study. Additionally, there's some eveidence to suggest that in some cases it runs in the family, which suggests long-term study.

That is, the ETs appear before, or abduct, people who are credible and hence will be believed. The idea is not to see what witness reaction is, but to use witnesses to further their goal.

In some cases yes. In other cases not so much.

Basically IMO aliens were finished with basic research of this planet and our species long ago. They've long had enough info to move on to the phase(s) of intervention, based on their knowledge and longterm agenda. True, they may need to obtain additional data on certain individuals of a new generation for e.g. witness suitability. But generally study is a thing of the past.

Like I said — Everyone is entitled to their read on the situation. In general terms, I think there's validity in saying that the "basic research" is done. But that requires a definition of "basic". That could be a very broad spectrum.

I doubt. As far as I know, earthlike conditions are considered a prerequisite to habitability so similar evolutionary outcomes sound reasonable. Btw many reported beings, while looking decidedly nonhuman are almost certainly fake or not naturally evolved but creations to reinforce the notion of unearthly visitors. Some may be AI.

Well — Earth-like conditions would be a prerequisite for Earthlings, but maybe not so much for other species. If biology is involved at all, then there might be some basic similarities, but we can say the same thing about the reports of a number of aliens. So it seems entirely reasonable to say that in some cases, particularly during the early phases of study, that aliens wouldn't know as much about our biology as we do, and visa versa.

Any civilization able to traverse interstellar distances is very likely to be generally far advanced.

Maybe — maybe not. Given the literal infinite possibilities, the idea of "generally" has no real meaning. In theory, if we had god like powers, we could cherry pick as many examples that contradict an assumption as examples that don't.

The latter is real IMO but the former is deceptive. The Alien Grand Design gives reasons for occasional "dumbing down."

Can you be more specific about The Alien Grand Design? Do you mean the book by Tim Donovan?

 

[Randall]

That's just not how technological progress works. Sure, some stuff happens accidentally in the lab, but all the big stuff we've done from digital computing, to laser surgery, rockets and explosives all have a very specific lineage. As a generation like yours that has seen dial phones and old school typewriters turn into cell phones, you know how these inventions evolve.



If you've mastered interstellar travel then odds are you know how to make a really tiny drone the size of an insect go get your soil and DNA samples for you. They don't have to reveal themselves at all but they do so all the damn time.

And what's more infuriating is that they do so in waves and patterns and in absolutely extraordinary technological displays for often a very small audience,or for the masses over a period of focused time in one location.

If there's any discussion to be had about intentionality I think these are some options:

If you're a hardcore materialist who takes all witness testimony as verbatim then the spaceship occupants are entirely absurd and using grade school techniques for our benefit (or you might call this an effort towards familiarization as some people interpret).

Or if you believe in the idea of Experience Anomalies a la Jerome Clark, then what gets codified and interpreted in the mind of the witness while in Oz is really just the best dream logic that brain can muster with the cultural front loading it has.

Either way, those two little people really wanted to be seen by Lonnie Zamora collecting their dirt and displaying their insignia. And he sure wasn't in Oz, and they left some physical evidence behind so that sure points to something intentional.

I dunno, maybe @Trajanus is right and they just want to appear as really benign and skittish national geographic explorers at one moment and then stalling your vehicles, pointing electric stun wands at you, blasting your chest with exhaust fumes, setting your small child's head on fire or sampling your blood with beams of light and making you sick in the next moment. It certainly is hard to separate such a diversity of motives that can often appear friendly or indifferently violent towards us, using both low and high tech in such overt manners. It's a gong show.

P.S. I don't think Star Trek idiot aliens can provide us with accurate insight into what is behind the phenomena. It's all way weirder than any of that.

My perspective is that discerning the difference between opinion, hypothesis, fact, and the implausible vs. the impossible, helps me to stay on track. That's why I tend to say "maybe" a lot. There are very few things about aliens, and the paranormal in general that I'm personally 100% certain about — except that the world is way weirder than people who think they know what's really going think it is.

The best we can do is have discussions like these in an attempt to narrow down what situation seems most likely to be the case given what we've got to work with in our particular circumstances.

If @Trajanus is right about the aliens having had a preliminary study phase, followed by a gradual familiarization phase, and if it's also safe to assume that the aliens in question have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years — then the familiarization phase sure seems to have been taking them a lot longer than necessary.

After all — the Earth and human physiology hasn't changed so much over the last few millennia. A race as advanced as is being suggested should have completed the preliminary study phase before the rise of ancient Egypt, Then, if they knew what they were doing, they'd have known that given our adaptability as a species, we would have adapted to them long before now. So what's the big delay?

Do we just trash the Ancient Aliens Hypothesis and assume that they've only been around since the 1940s?

 

[Burnt State]

Can you be more specific about The Alien Grand Design? Do you mean the book by Tim Donovan?

I started reading it and abandoned pretty early on when I saw how the real grand design was the author picking bits and pieces of UFO history to suit his thesis which includes: his confidence in the political belief systems of aliens, the singular mind that is controlling the whole alien thing here on earth, how Roswell was an intentional crash demonstrating how willing they are to sacrifice individuals (they could be communist - beware) and his use of contactee Sid Padrick's fantastic tales of flying on spaceships and being told how alien society is structured and even shown photos of the pilot's homeworld. The author then uses this contactee tale as facts to further his own design.

So again, I would have to say that basing ideas about what the ufonauts might be up to on contactee fantasies is just a non-starter for me. There just really is no proof whatsoever as to what or where the UFO's come from and certainly not what their intentions are. You don't have to listen to more than five episodes of the Paracast to hear that position being echoed ad nauseum from Steinberg to most of his co-hosts.

Here's an actual critical discussion on Sid Padrick from one of the co-hosts:

1965: UFO Contact In California

 

[Randall]

I started reading it and abandoned pretty early on when I saw how the real grand design was the author picking bits and pieces of UFO history to suit his thesis which includes: his confidence in the political belief systems of aliens, the singular mind that is controlling the whole alien thing here on earth, how Roswell was an intentional crash demonstrating how willing they are to sacrifice individuals (they could be communist - beware) and his use of contactee Sid Padrick's fantastic tales of flying on spaceships and being told how alien society is structured and even shown photos of the pilot's homeworld. The author then uses this contactee tale as facts to further his own design.

So again, I would have to say that basing ideas about what the ufonauts might be up to on contactee fantasies is just a non-starter for me. There just really is no proof whatsoever as to what or where the UFO's come from and certainly not what their intentions are. You don't have to listen to more than five episodes of the Paracast to hear that position being echoed ad nauseum from Steinberg to most of his co-hosts.

Here's an actual critical discussion on Sid Padrick from one of the co-hosts:

1965: UFO Contact In California

Thanks for the link. I checked it out. The links in it to to the interviews don't work anymore, but the newspaper clips are interesting. I'm still not sure what @Trajanus thinks the "real grand design" is — but as usual I'm in agreement with your comments.

Gene's perspective and mine on UFOs isn't entirely in sync — but not diametrically opposed like that of the plandemic/vax/globalist big-pharma/tech conspiracy. Gene was more aligned with COB on UFOs in that they both leaned toward a terrestrial explanation for the phenomenon — whereas my main focus is more specific, seeing the core issue not as a vague "phenomenon" but as definitive "objects" — craft of alien origin.

That's why this whole shift to "UAP" drives me up the wall. It's not that I don't recognize that there are "phenomena" — it's that the "phenomena" is the noise I'm trying to separate from the signal. To paraphrase Stanton Friedman, "I don't care about UFOs — I want to know about flying saucers." Whatever one thinks about Friedman — he kept his eye on the doughnut rather than the hole ( mmm doughnuts ).

Anyway — the plandemic/scamdemic ( whatever you want to call it ) has shifted my focus entirely away from UFOs and the paranormal over the last 5 years. Without going into that incredibly important and forbidden topic right now, that shift of focus has allowed me to get a view of the paranormal and UFOs from outside the ketchup bottle. I now see much clearer that the uninitiated ( so to speak ) take UFOs far less seriously than I had imagined.

It's not that I still don't hold the same position as I did before ( that alien visitation is real ). It's that I see the world and people differently, and to tell you the truth, I'm having a hard time adapting. I don't know if anyone else can relate to this, but now, to me, it's as if most of the population are actually aliens that look like humans, or that I'm the one who's alien — but look mostly human. Maybe that's because I came from a parallel universe in the 1970s.

Either way, that's just crazy — right?

 

[Trajanus]

That may be a thought, but it completely contradicts who witnesses are. They are a total cross section of society with regards to age, gender, education and profession.

They have the one thing that really matters in common--a modicum of credibility. I don't recall reports by drug addicts or prison inmates nor by people with known mental illness prior to an experience. Familiarization requires witnesses who are most likely to be believed. Many are pretty articulate btw.

Reporting by witnesses are sketchy at best, with a small percentage of witnesses actually reporting what they've seen.

Even if that's true, familiarization is still advanced by "conversion" of individuals.

Malevolent treatment of witnesses certainly doesn't encourage reporting or believability. If abductions are real then witnesses struggle to convince anyone of the reality of aliens from space when they start talking about having their arms severed from their bodies and then later reattached.

The idea is to induce people to accept that aliens are real and here, not that aliens are "good." I don't see why someone who was traumatized would be reluctant to report it; one serviceman, after an unpleasant encounter, wrote to congressmen for years about the "alien threat."

Ok so what's up with the myriad or different alien species being reported by witnesses: greys, Nordics, lizards, dwarves, robots, blobs of jelly, floating elves, giant hairy beasts, enormous catfish wearing boots etc....Is there an intergalactic council that is getting together to decide what to do next with earth, which witnesses to appear in front of etc.? How does this whole familiarization thing work? If some are AI and others aren't do they get the same vote on the council when they decided to appear in front of Strieber and then his kid?

Lol, for certain reasons the phenomenon greatly varies what it displays, but the regardless of whether the being shown is a grey, a fishlike thing or "insectoid," the bottom line is the same: aliens are real and coming here.

And why is the message so inconsistent? Why are they willing to squash us, impregnate us, operate on us, steal our embryos, warn us about the dangers of technology, appear as utterly incompetent when trying to abduct us and other times can easily float us right through walls and into their ships? How does all of that fit into some kind of focussed agenda?

As I said before, they are familiarizing the masses with their reality, but they don't want us to be certain of it yet. So some "high strangeness" appearances seem to cast a bit of doubt on space visitors. Also, besides the truth they ultimately foster, about the reality of ET, they're trying to condition us to accept certain false ideas about them, in preparation for the denouement of their mission here. It's a long story...