Ufos and obsessive irrational hate?

[ProphetofOccam]

Interesting discussion. Can you cite these "several studies" you are using as a reference please? I'd like to have a closer look at them.

The wikipedia article on conspiracy theory does a pretty decent job of categorizing and explaining all of the accepted psychological roots for conspiracism with footnoted links to some studies and articles that can direct you to studies.


"Clinical psychology" and "Socio-political origins" possibly being the most relevant, but it's all connected to the same idea.

The most interesting summarization comes from the Socio-political origins section:

Conspiratorial accounts can be emotionally satisfying when they place events in a readily understandable, moral context. The subscriber to the theory is able to assign moral responsibility for an emotionally troubling event or situation to a clearly conceived group of individuals. Crucially, that group does not include the believer. The believer may then feel excused of any moral or political responsibility for remedying whatever institutional or societal flaw might be the actual source of the dissonance.[38] Likewise, Roger Cohen, in an op-Ed for the New York Times propounded that, "captive minds... resort to conspiracy theory because it is the ultimate refuge of the powerless. If you cannot change your own life, it must be that some greater force controls the world."[39]

EDIT: I found one that was interesting last night, but, for some reason, I couldn't access the forums.

The Determinants of Belief in Conspiracy Theories by Scott Radnitz :: SSRN

You'll have to download it, and it's pretty long, but if you read the entire thing, it's interesting.

 

[Muadib]

The 12-step programs don't invoke particular religious ideologies, in general. They speak to a higher power. It can be religious in form, or it could be a slinky. It's literally whatever you feel empowers you to succeed.

While this may be true in what they say, what they practice is often quite different. One thing is for sure, you can't be an atheist or an agnostic and function in an AA/NA scenario, they have an entire chapter in their "Big Book" dedicated to atheist/agnostic deprogramming. From the "Big Book" aka "Alcoholics Anonymous"

If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you. The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, Dr. Robert Holbrook Smith, Doctor Bob's Story, Page 181

I have heard guys claim that their higher power is their motorcycle or some other mundane, physical object but c'mon, you don't pray to your motorcycle for help and you don't pray to your motorcycle to express gratitude, every day, or ask it to micro manage your life, these are fundamental AA/NA concepts. Often if one doesn't accept the idea of a deity, the suggestion is for you to make the group your higher power, in other words, set aside any and all objections you may have and just go with the group. Most NA/AA meetings end with the "Lord's Prayer" straight out of the Christian Bible and the "Serenity Prayer" which calls on God to help the addict. I suppose you can interpret that however you want but it definitely speaks to me of a religious bent in 12 step programs, and I'm certainly not the only one. A number of groups exist because the AA/NA approach is to abandon things like science, psychology, pharmacology (many group members can and will advise members to stop taking psychiatric medications because they are drugs) and anything outside the group and your "higher power," SMART Recovery being one of the groups that has formed because of the religious bent in AA/NA meetings. In the end, I suppose it depends on the group and the members of that group, in AA/NA group consciousness rules and woe to those who find themselves at odds with the group. I'm not saying they don't help people, of course they do, but it's not for everyone. In fact, if you apply the traditional definition of religious cults to AA you'll find that they fit the bill on almost every point.

Cult Test, AA Answers 0

Self Help Substance Abuse &amp Addiction Recovery | SMART Recovery®
Our Approach
* Teaches self-empowerment and self-reliance.
* Encourages individuals to recover and live satisfying lives.
* Teaches tools and techniques for self-directed change.
* Meetings are educational and include open discussions.
* Advocates the appropriate use of prescribed medications and psychological treatments.
* Evolves as scientific knowledge of addiction recovery evolves.

 

[Muadib]

Just so we don't have to get into a pointless debate about whether or not AA/NA is religious and engages in religious practices, I'd just like to point out that the same bait and switch tactic that AA/NA uses has been used down through the ages by cults of all kind. There is no real difference between spirituality and religion, they just use the word spirituality to confuse the issue the way Creationism says it doesn't name a specific God so how can it be religious? The God is implied and it is most definitely the Christian God of the traditional Christian religion. I can cite countless examples of that, but a major example is that it's considered a moot point in legal circles, the Supreme Court has ruled that AA/NA engages in religion as defined by the constitution and it's now the law of the land, so much so that they refuse to hear any further arguments on the matter.

Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, the two founders of AA and writers of their guide to everything, the Big Book, have their roots in religious fundamentalism, Bill was involved with what is commonly known as the Buchmanites or the Oxford Group or the MRA (Moral ReArmament Association) and AA/NA were developed specifically out of that group, you can see it in their slogans and teachings, which specifically state that you don't overwhelm the potential convert with religious dogma, feed it to him slow and once he's hooked then you let him know what's expected of him. Classic cult move and Buchmanism is definitely considered a cult. Again, I'm not saying they don't help people, they can and do, though not as many as they'd like you to believe but there are many people out there who don't want to give up rationalism and don't agree that you have to believe in the personal, patriarchal, life micro managing God of the Christian bible simply to give up drugs and alcohol, and I agree. Here's the court decisions and some more info about the roots of AA if you're interested:

A.A. claims that it is a "spiritual" organization, and not "religious", and not a religion, but there is no great difference between the words "religious" and "spiritual." The distinction is artificial — just another deceptive word game.
In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit Court ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:

Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue. — Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz​

All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:

• the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
• the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
• the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
• the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
• the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
• the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
• the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
• the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
• the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
• the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
• the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007.

The United States Supreme Court has refused to hear challenges to those rulings, or to change or over-turn those lower court decisions. By letting them stand, the Supreme Court has made them the law of the land.

More examples of the false distinction between spirituality and religion they use to lure people into the group can be found here, scroll to the top of the page: It's Spiritual, Not Religious

More information about the religious roots of AA can be found here: Religious Roots: The Religious Tenets and Doctrines of Buchmanism

 

[ProphetofOccam]

I tried to post last night that I am just going by what the family members that i have in these types of programs (not just AA) have said about it. It was a three paragraph entry that I don't really have the will to write out, again.

The gist of it was that, since my dad was the subject of what I was saying, I was holding him to his alleged experiences. He is known to bend the truth (and occasionally tell crazy, untrue stories for no discernible reason) so his take could easily be false; it could also be the result of his misunderstanding.

I know people accuse AA of that kind of thing, and it's most likely (and apparently, legally) true. I have another family member who became completely adverse to the idea of going to groups based on an experience involving religion talk.

 

[ProphetofOccam]

In case my "EDIT" gets missed, here is another link to the journal:

I found one that was interesting last night, but, for some reason, I couldn't access the forums.

The Determinants of Belief in Conspiracy Theories by Scott Radnitz :: SSRN

You'll have to download it, and it's pretty long, but if you read the entire thing, it's interesting. The "conclusion" goes back and forth until the end, where the actual conclusion becomes interesting.

It also provides a citation page that contains many similar studies, some of which are where I got my initial understanding.

This particular study finds that income, education, psychological and economic views are the strongest determinants. Some of the cited studies hold the more traditional view, that esteem, emotional issues and related issues are stronger determinants, followed by these factors. Income and education have always been recognized factors.

Income and education, though, are strong sociological pillars that shape the way a person sees themselves, and others, in collective society. As suggested by the other studies, and the authors cited in the wikipedia article, self evaluation, taking these factors into account, can and sometimes does lead to internal questions like, "Why am I uneducated and earning a lower income," with answers akin to, "because forces larger than myself prevent me from having the education and income of others," with a tendency to overlook, ignore, deny, or begrudge the fact that individuals from within identical systems have higher incomes and college educations. Looking for "bad guys" onto which one might assign blame for their own, personal position is a far easier -- and immediately comforting -- exercise than self-evaluating in a meaningful way.

As suggested by this particular study, for the types of people more susceptible to that kind of sociological self evaluation -- low income, uneducated individuals -- belief in conspiracy, and identification of the "bad guy," is a common trend.

In that way, the fringe becomes a haven for the generally disgruntled.

As I said before, when you meet the disgruntled types, it's best just to smile and nod. Arguing with them is going to be unpleasant for all parties. There's no reason to take away their security blanket; what would you actually gain, anyway? It makes them happy, you're already happy, everyone's happy.

Keep in mind, though, that this study, nor any other study, attempts to address whether or not known conspiracy theories are fact or fiction. The study used a fictional conspiracy theory to avoid that idea. Some conspiracies just might, one day, ring true. You don't have to be disgruntled, low income or uneducated to believe a conspiracy theory, but the people who fit that description are more likely to believe a conspiracy theory.

Nobody is arbitrarily commenting on the existence of aliens, UFOs, Bigfoot, shadow governments, or anything of the like. It's a commentary on a specific genre of human being who are attracted to conspiracy theory.

 

[Burnt State]

As suggested by this particular study, for the types of people more susceptible to that kind of sociological self evaluation -- low income, uneducated individuals -- belief in conspiracy, and identification of the "bad guy," is a common trend.

In that way, the fringe becomes a haven for the generally disgruntled...

...Nobody is arbitrarily commenting on the existence of aliens, UFOs, Bigfoot, shadow governments, or anything of the like. It's a commentary on a specific genre of human being who are attracted to conspiracy theory.

When you look at who else is in Scientology - the educated and the wealthy, I think that the idea of disgruntlement becomes the winning factor for why belief systems based on irrational or mythological foundations take root.

After spending many years in intense convo with an AA sponsor on how and why the program can be very effective, I understand that our desire to be 'good' and even perceived as good by a patriarchal entity makes people feel better about themselves and able to escape their disgruntlement by feeling loved, so to speak. Thre's also the power of being born again into a place of conviction, that the program provides in the same way cults do. There is a wonderful unknown future that you are being directed towards that helps to replace the willpower that the individual lacked in the first place to stop their disease.

I think it's more than a genre of human that leads them to conspiracies or to addiction, it is part of something fundamental in humans - our desire to feel something positive outside of ourselves because we can not find that positivity within. Our age old love of gods, hidden truths, mythology and stories of aliens coming from the sky with messages to save humanity replaces individual power & personal value. As one Buddhist (spiritual but not religious IMO) precept goes, "the name of the key [to life ] is willingness."

 

[ProphetofOccam]

I think it's more than a genre of human that leads them to conspiracies or to addiction, it is part of something fundamental in humans - our desire to feel something positive outside of ourselves because we can not find that positivity within. Our age old love of gods, hidden truths, mythology and stories of aliens coming from the sky with messages to save humanity replaces individual power & personal value. As one Buddhist (spiritual but not religious IMO) precept goes, "the name of the key [to life ] is willingness.

Definitely all true.

When I say "genre of human being," I'm talking about a particular group of people who have a sense of disgruntlement and pessimism that goes beyond the seemingly normal desire to find a higher force to look to for comfort. In fact, conspiracy is somewhat the opposite of religion in that way. Where the religious, even Scientologists, use the concept of the external, greater force to aspire for self improvement or rely on for emotional security, the conspiracists (of this type) use the concept to place blame for their undesirable state and avoid self improvement by justifying their hopelessness through that blame. As the majority of people on the planet are religious, it does suggest that there is a sociological predisposition in humans to look beyond the self for emotional security, but it takes a very specific type of person to go in the direction of blame rather than aspiration.