UFO behavior and laws of physics

[Ezechiel]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/15/spaceexploration.universe

The impossible 90 degree turns and hovering without propulsion... could this be an application of Einstein's theory. If you were able to bend space, like folding a piece of paper in order to change locations... the crazy ufo behaviors would make sense since no movement is involved. An artificial event horizon bends space and a quick transfer to a target destination is obtained. Hovering would require the deformation of space above the craft in order to counter the 9.8 m/s gravity pull.

Unfortunately the energy required to do this is beyond our reach. (However we don't yet have a complete definition of energy except for matter times speed of light squared).

If aliens have this capacity, it would suggest that they could in fact annihilate the entire planet earth without effort...

Does this make sense ?

When you see a ufo moving, its not moving its deforming space. Its an illusion of movement and the occupants feel no acceleration since they don't travel through space they manipulate it LOL

 

[Illuminati0n]

This also begs the question where does the capacity of technology to advance end. When is the improvement of technology truely capped by the physical universe we exist in.

Lets say an alien civilization with UFO's visting Earth have existed intelligently for 500,000. At the 200,000 year point they discovered how to bend time and space and do 90 degree turns in flying ships. What im curious about is what they have since discovered and what other things are they capable of.

We have computers, phones, ipods, aircraft, cars, xray machines, you name it. Surely the aliens have more then UFO's.

Are their ships even actually existing in and limited to the physical and not actually tapping into some part of your subconsciousness or brain to turn part of your reality into a dream state.

The whole propulsion thing seems to simple for a race that could have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Plus why would they use ancient technology. That would be like us using 2 pieces of wood to start a fire.

 

[pixelsmith]

when i was about 7-8 years old i was with my mom waiting in a train station when a old man in a fancy suit complete with pocket watch chain, black hat, shiny shoes, etc came and sat next to me. he gave me two little scottie dog figures about an inch long. one was white and one was black. he put them down and moved one closer to the other and it repelled it. they were of course magnets. he showed how if you turned one around they would attract to each other, etc.. then he leaned in very close and said "someday we will travel to the stars with magnetic ships". i turned to my mother to show her the magnets and when i turned back, he was gone. i never forgot what he said and i firmly believe he was on to to something.

 

[Ron Collins]

This also begs the question where does the capacity of technology to advance end. When is the improvement of technology truely capped by the physical universe we exist in.

Lets say an alien civilization with UFO's visting Earth have existed intelligently for 500,000. At the 200,000 year point they discovered how to bend time and space and do 90 degree turns in flying ships. What im curious about is what they have since discovered and what other things are they capable of.

We have computers, phones, ipods, aircraft, cars, xray machines, you name it. Surely the aliens have more then UFO's.

Are their ships even actually existing in and limited to the physical and not actually tapping into some part of your subconsciousness or brain to turn part of your reality into a dream state.

The whole propulsion thing seems to simple for a race that could have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Plus why would they use ancient technology. That would be like us using 2 pieces of wood to start a fire.

Im not sure about this. the idea has been kicked around many times. My problem is that the objects are captured utilizing technology. Radar, video, stills or whatever. From this I doubt our minds are targeted in any real way other than to register the physical existence. At least that is my opinion.

 

[Schuyler]

I don't know if this explanation works or not. It's beyond me. But I do know that UFOs--and everything else--cannot violate the laws of physics. It's impossible. These 'laws' are not man made; they are the structure of the universe. We, of course, have an incomplete understanding of them. Hopefully by observing these phenomena objectively we will come to understand that such behavior is possible, i.e.: They are pointing the way for us. What we need is an epiphany at the level of E=MC(2) to get us to the next level of understanding. We need another Einstein. I hope I'm not being too pedantic here.

Pixel, that is an amazing story about the magnets.

 

[pixelsmith]

I don't know if this explanation works or not. It's beyond me. But I do know that UFOs--and everything else--cannot violate the laws of physics. It's impossible. These 'laws' are not man made; they are the structure of the universe. We, of course, have an incomplete understanding of them. Hopefully by observing these phenomena objectively we will come to understand that such behavior is possible, i.e.: They are pointing the way for us. What we need is an epiphany at the level of E=MC(2) to get us to the next level of understanding. We need another Einstein. I hope I'm not being too pedantic here.

Pixel, that is an amazing story about the magnets.

it is because of that man i have 100s of magnets and many scars to prove their strength. ouch!!!
i have a levitation box that holds a magnet and a wafer of graphite. i love to watch the graphite levitate... if i can levitate a small piece of graphite then someone else should be able to levitate a larger "piece of graphite" or structured craft.

 

[DrLogic]

If Einstein’s theories of special & general relativity are accurate then personally I don’t believe that this would be an explanation for the fast movements. Not in terms of gravity amplification at least.

Something to consider is that it isn’t just a warping of space but of space-time. So if you were to mimic this gravitational effect then you have a slowing down of time with respect to an observer’s frame of reference.

Or to look at it another way, you are observing the ship making the 90 degree shift, but you are stationary relative to it (you don’t shift 90 degrees too), so you are outside it's 'field'. From your perspective the amount of time it would take to shift would tend to infinity, quite the opposite of going quickly.

Interestingly enough what the occupants would have there is effectively a time machine for going forward, if you watched the ship move sideways for 10 years, inside the field just an instance would have passed.

So you would really want the opposite effect, you would want to accelerate into a high speed inertial frame. That way everyone outside the ship would appear to be moving in slow motion, whilst from your perspective on the ground the ship would just look like it is making incredible manoeuvres.

You still have the problem of inertia itself if it is a material ship, moving right angles at the speed would blow the ship apart, so some form of inertial dampening would have to take place.

 

[Ezechiel]

then he leaned in very close and said "someday we will travel to the stars with magnetic ships". i turned to my mother to show her the magnets and when i turned back, he was gone. i never forgot what he said and i firmly believe he was on to to something.

http://science.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/sppb/Edu/magnetosphere/
The magnetosphere helps to protect our Earth from the danger of the Sun's solar wind

Actually the guy was on the right track. The earth itself is protected by a rotating iron core which generates the magnetosphere. Future space faring ships will need the same protection from radiation and will probably use the earths solution which allows us to live here

Until we master space bending, fusion propulsion which emulates the sun will more likely send us off to Alpha Centauri

 

[skunkape]

I've seen UFO's that looked like solid structured objects. I've seen UFO's that were more like some sort of plasma phenomenon. The two times I've encountered what seemed like intelligent life-forms, there was no craft involved. It was more like the reality we experience is a channel on the radio and the other guys had their hand on the tuner. It felt like I was actually in two places at once at some points. Whatever that technology is makes the concept of a physical craft traveling linear distance look like a buggy next to the space-shuttle.
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[Ezechiel]

So you would really want the opposite effect, you would want to accelerate into a high speed inertial frame. That way everyone outside the ship would appear to be moving in slow motion, whilst from your perspective on the ground the ship would just look like it is making incredible manoeuvres.

You've just described an event horizon. As a ship approaches a 'black hole', time slows down from its perspective. Intense gravity will bend space.

 

[Ezechiel]

It felt like I was actually in two places at once at some points. Whatever that technology is makes the concept of a physical craft traveling linear distance look like a buggy next to the space-shuttle.
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That's a pretty good hint. Space, dark matter, ether... whatever it is seems to have properties that can be manipulated for displacement purposes.

 

[DrLogic]

You've just described an event horizon. As a ship approaches a 'black hole', time slows down from its perspective. Intense gravity will bend space.

It depends what you mean by 'time slows down rom its perspective'

The ship's time appears to slow from the perspective of an oberserver watching the ship go into the black hole. When the occupant looks at only his own clock inside the ship, he would have no concept of time slowing down, the observer outside however would compare his own clock with that of the ship's and see that the ship's is running slower.

By the same token the guy in the ship could do the same comparison and notice that the observer's clock appears to be going faster.

Thats why in our gravity well on earth GPS satellite clocks would appear to be running 39 microseconds faster per day.

This kind of puts the whole 'prefered frame of reference' thing in a muddle if you thrtow constant velocities into the mix, but I believe Einstein postulated the idea that a deceleration from a relatively accelerated frame would cause a syncing of the two clock, though i dont know whether the idea has ever been experimented with. It was a get out clause for the twins paradox, not to hot on the idea myself. I'll have to look up constant acceleration to see if that has similar sort of effects to gravitation...hmm interesting.

 

[Ezechiel]

You still have the problem of inertia itself if it is a material ship, moving right angles at the speed would blow the ship apart, so some form of inertial dampening would have to take place.

That's why I proposed that these ships don't move, they manipulate the space (or ether) around them. The occupants never feel acceleration.

It sounds weird but it allows faster than light displacement since speed is never part of the equation. Bending/deforming calculated segments of space in a sequential manner would do the trick to avoid dense matter clusters (stars, planets, asteroids... etc) as you shuttled back and forth.

If speed is a limitation, the only way to bypass it is to manipulate space thus controling the pesky time element

 

[skunkape]

I have seen a UFO, with a witness, shoot down at bullet-speed and land on a mountain without making a sound. It should have, according to my knowledge of physics, made a crater and a loud boom. When it left, it silently accelerated at a speed that would make scrambled-eggs out of any flesh-and-blood pilot, once again, according to my basic knowledge of physics. Whatever they are, I'm not convinced that they are "physical" in the way that we normally think of the term. I know it's a real thing. I also suspect that everything humans think of as "real" is just a thin slice of a big pie.
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[Ezechiel]

I have seen a UFO, with a witness, shoot down at bullet-speed and land on a mountain without making a sound. It should have, according to my knowledge of physics, made a crater and a loud boom. When it left, it silently accelerated at a speed that would make scrambled-eggs out of any flesh-and-blood pilot, once again, according to my basic knowledge of physics. Whatever they are, I'm not convinced that they are "physical" in the way that we normally think of the term. I know it's a real thing. I also suspect that everything humans think of as "real" is just a thin slice of a big pie.

Your account is consistent with my idea of space manipulating crafts. Illusion of movement obtained by bending space instead of travelling through it.... no sound, no air displacement.

Here is a web site corroborating the idea:
http://www.hyper.net/ufo/physics.html

Often UFOs have a very strong magnetic field. Also, in several cases, light (e.g. from car headlights or beaming spotlights) is reported to "bend" in front of the UFO, an effect which some suggest is related with the most controversial aspect of UFO reports: the apparent ability to disappear / "blink out" or seem to "implode" (diminish in angular size) [miniature-scale "gravitational lensing"-type phenomenon?]. Physiological effects on humans include: sunburn-type effect and eye irritation, extreme dryness of the nasal area and of the throat, color changes in vision, extreme headaches and a heating/burning sensation. Witnesses and animals have become sick and even died, with symptoms similar to radiation poisoning, after close approach to a UFO. Given the tremendous amount of energy UFOs seem to be expending, their power source is a big mystery. Many ideas have been proposed, including that UFOs are storing energy in a very concentrated form, or converting gravity to usable energy (H.Oberth 1950s), or utilising ambient energy (speculations about being able to tap the so-called Zero-Point-Energy) or utilize remote transmission of power (wireless energy transfer).

 

[DrLogic]

I kind of see what your getting at, so say you have a bubble around the ship that is intertial frame 1, a 'shell' (spherical) around that i'll call frame 2, then the guy watching from the ground at frame 3.

Frame 2, the shell, would be an event horizon from both the ship's and the ground observers perspective. And i guess the ship enact its magic on a particular coordinate of the shell depending on which direction it wanted to go.

A couple of things to consider, the amount of time the the shell takes to do as requested still tends towards infinity no matter which way you cut it, because time dilation due to gravitational curvature in not a reciprocal paradox like special relativity, all three frames will agree that the shell is taking forever to compress the space.

The other thing being that generating an event horizon next to you is probably not the safest hobby in the universe , so if the ship were to stay still in this process, then it still needs to move the compressed space beyond the other side of the ship.

So i reckon the ship in your scenario would also need some sort of technology to phase out of the material, sidelined from reality if you will, while it moves the compressed space 'through' it, uncompresses in, then phases back in. That would also be in line with the idea that they are not entirely material.

I still think the time issue is a deal breaker but an interesting idea, personally i think you need an anti-black hole :shy:

This might be of interest to you, I reckon there are advanced races leveraging the effects of QM on the scale of the macrophysical world being the source of the real interesting possibilities:

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[Ezechiel]

I reckon there are advanced races leveraging the effects of QM on the scale of the macrophysical world being the source of the real interesting possibilities

Put all my chips on that one All the perceived weirdness is exactly there, unexploited by us.... yet !.

Its all about control. An advanced race would have more control over its environment you would think.... to the point where it can manipulate or create new ones. It wouldn't be subject to the elements, it would control them. And be able to break every physics rule in our primitive books

 

[Xylo]

I don't know if this explanation works or not. It's beyond me. But I do know that UFOs--and everything else--cannot violate the laws of physics. It's impossible. These 'laws' are not man made; they are the structure of the universe. We, of course, have an incomplete understanding of them. Hopefully by observing these phenomena objectively we will come to understand that such behavior is possible, i.e.: They are pointing the way for us. What we need is an epiphany at the level of E=MC(2) to get us to the next level of understanding. We need another Einstein. I hope I'm not being too pedantic here.

The laws of physics might not be able to be violated, but as you said we do not have a complete understanding of them.

My own thinking about propulsion systems is not as mathematically based...I'm more of a conceptual thinker. What if one was able to "turn off" gravity? What if one was able to "multiply" gravity, or just tap into it's source? Since humans don't even know what gravity really is, we don't know how it works. All we really know about gravity is that it exerts acceleration upon an object. I suspect that once we discover the mechanism of gravity, we will be able to advance our propulsion systems accordingly.

 

[Kandinsky]

People and technology have reported and recorded the extraordinary movements of UFO/UAP phenomena. It seems to me that our Laws of Physics will stand a little revision in the next few years. As far as we know, hallucinations don't register on radar or camera. As far as we know, tricks of the light don't have an effect on electrical equipment.

If it turns out that hallucinations do register on electrical equipment, the Laws of Physics need revision. If tricks of the light effect electrical equipment, it's a revision.

Whatever, there's 'something' happening that's really not understood.

 

[Apocalypto]

If certain aliens wanted to destroy Earth, they could snap their alien fingers and make it happen.