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Trees 'express emotions and make friends'...

I saw this film recently:
Secrets Of Nature - The Strangler

I was astounded by the date 1930!

I thought Sir David Attenborough was the first to use time lapse photography on plants, but it was actually a man called Percy Smith who made the film above.

That's all by the by, when I see the way that plants move and "behave" I can't help but wonder how "aware" they are.

I believe that they are conscious at some level, they just operate at a much slower rate, I also recently found out that certain sharks* can live to 500 (five hundred) years old, which suggests to me that a lot of things need reassessing in terms of what is possible.

*400-year-old Greenland shark ‘longest-living vertebrate’ - BBC News
 
I saw this film recently:
Secrets Of Nature - The Strangler - I was astounded by the date 1930!
I thought Sir David Attenborough was the first to use time lapse photography on plants, but it was actually a man called Percy Smith who made the film above. That's all by the by, when I see the way that plants move and "behave" I can't help but wonder how "aware" they are. I believe that they are conscious at some level, they just operate at a much slower rate, I also recently found out that certain sharks* can live to 500 (five hundred) years old, which suggests to me that a lot of things need reassessing in terms of what is possible. *400-year-old Greenland shark ‘longest-living vertebrate’ - BBC News

The question of whether or not plants have consciousness carries us into the realm of consciousness studies, the ambiguities of which make perfect fertilizer for people's pet theories to take root. The resulting entanglement of ideas and evidence can seem very persuasive, but IMO it's just a manifestation of the tendency for humans to anthropomorphize. We do this to anything close to us that we interact with. Our pets are the most common living things we do this with, but we also know that animals, although amazing creatures, don't come close to human capacity and complexity in mental capacity, and let's face it, consciousness is a mental capacity.

We even tend to anthropomorphize inanimate objects. There's been more that one instance where someone I had been talking to had given their car a name and thought of it as a "part of the family". But on a more objective level, the largest quantity of unambiguous scientific evidence to date supports the idea that consciousness requires a functioning brain. Plants don't have them. Maybe that's why we say patients who lack signs of consciousness appear to be in a vegetative state. Basically, IMO, plants, although fascinating and complex, don't "behave" psychologically. They simply function as biological automata. This in no way suggests that they aren't important to our ecosystem or interesting to study.

Skeptic's Dictionary: plant perception (a.k.a. the Backster effect) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
 
This is another time when I know what I think and it makes sense in my mind, but getting it on "paper" is going too be tough, so I will just go ahead and try:

When you say that plants function like automata, I think you have it the wrong way around because my belief is that all "machines" are based on "Nature".
For example if we take the Submarine and compare it to a Whale, the are obvious similarities in shape and function, obviously a modern Submarine can out perform a Whale in many ways e.g. how long it can stay submerged or how fast it can go underwater, but compared to the "early" submarines a Whale is far superior. I would say that a modern Submarine is an improvement on the whale, and the whale is an improvement on a fish. I wonder if the story of Jonah inspired the original concept of the submarine because: if he was swallowed by a Fish he would have drowned, however just like a Submarine, a Whale carries its own air from the surface. There are also many similarities between the Whale and a modern Airliner, this is no accident because they both operate in "fluid" environments. I think of an Airliner as diving upwards (or downwards depending on your point of reference. (i.e where you choose to measure from).

I won't try to pretend that there are not huge differences between a Sub and a Whale the one that leaps to mind is there means of propulsion, however I think if you look very closely you can find that even the "propeller" is an array of "Fins" (blades) I can't think of an animal that uses its fins in the same configuration as a propeller i.e spinning clockwise or anti clockwise to go forward and backwards, *edit* I have just thought about the way that a lizard runs or how a Human swims backstroke........

Another difference might be the "fuel" and the way it is converted into motion (I have to say that my understanding of nuclear propulsion is somewhat lacking so I will use a "combustion" engine instead)

The Whale swallows its food, which then enters the stomach, and is converted by chemical processes into energy which is then stored until required. With a combustion Engine you skip the eating part and put the "stored energy" i.e fuel into the system (the gas tank) and it is stored until required. If you use a fossil fuel i.e oil, I would argue that the differences between a what a Whale eats are even less, after all oil is basically lots of little marine creatures.

If we look at how a Whale "sees" in the darkness of the deep sea and compare it to a Submarine we can see how the Whales "Echo location" ability inspired "SONAR" and in terms of Aeroplanes and RADAR Bats did the same.

Basically what I am getting at is that: Human technology is invariably inspired by nature (when I say nature I include natural forces i.e electricity or gravity etc)

Another example is "Bellows" (for pumping air onto a fire) Bellows replicate a person blowing on to the fire to make it burn hotter, which is absolutely essential for smelting the harder metals. We have advanced so far that it is sometimes hard to make these basic connections, but I believe no Bellows no Modern technology.


Regarding the mental capacity of animals: we can only judge them by our own criteria (by our own standards) but it is not a level playing field, and never can be until we have complete communication.
There are certain creatures that call into question conventional wisdom regarding how many neurons and brain size etc my favourite example is the Cephalopods (Octopodes in particular) which are capable of some truly astounding things made even more astounding given how small their brains are and how many neurons they have, which leads me to believe that we haven't quite got all the information about how brains function, I think that we will eventually discover the missing information and will be forced to rethink the classification of animals.

Regarding treating Inanimate objects as if they were alive, to me it makes sense in some ways. Lets take a Horse and a Car for comparison:

There is a "relationship" between the horse and the rider just like there is a relationship between a Car and a Driver:
Don't feed and water your horse and it won't take you very far, don't oil and fuel your car and the same is true.
Don't take care of maintaining the horses health or shoes and it could breakdown or slip with you on it, don't service your car and the same is true.
This type of relationship is as early as us.

Now regarding Plants and consciousness I am well out of my depth but my suspicion is that they must be conscious at some level, I don't know how best to describe this:
Maybe it is like they have an inbuilt list of things they require like sunshine and water and have a system that tells them their status, e.g like when we are thirsty or hungry we seek water and food. Maybe they do the same thing. I am not saying that they are aware enough to qualify them as "conscious" but they must have some "awareness" of their surroundings, and in a very rudimentary way actually make "decisions" like which way they need to grow for the best sunlight etc. Even if their system is based on yes or no (or 0 or 1) (+ or -) (presence or absence of sun or water) its still a system dependent on the processing of "information". or to put it another way a system that processes information.

Hope this all makes sense :eek:
 
This is another time when I know what I think and it makes sense in my mind ... Hope this all makes sense :eek:
I followed you quite clearly, and I like the way you think about things and have an appreciation for nature. I think the difference of opinion lies in our respective understanding of consciousness and automata. This is not the difference between the animate and the inanimate ( whales vs. subs ). Plants are animate. They are alive. But rather than "thinking" about what they'll do and making a mental "decision" to do it, they automatically react biologically to the surrounding environment according to the way they are built.

So in the strangler plant video, it's not like the plant actually has "criminal behavior" and "chooses" it's victim. It just has a natural biological design that causes it to climb when it encounters something it can climb. It doesn't "think" about it. It just does it because that's how it's made. I have climbing vines in my backyard that try to climb everything, including stuff that is impossible to climb ( like glass ), so it's not that there is any "conscious choice" going on. If you watch carefully there's no convincing indication that anything other than a sequence of environmentally arbitrary Boolean-like non-conscious biochemical occurrences are taking place.


One might compare this on the simplest level to an infra-red sensor security light. When infrared light hits the sensor, the sensor flips a switch for the light to come on. There's no "thinking" there. Plants are similar, but instead of one big sensor, they have a lot of little sensors that react mainly to blue/ultraviolet light, and instead of causing a light switch to go on, it causes a whole bunch of little chain reactions that add up to photosynthesis. But there's no more "thought" in this than the "thought" that goes into the digestion of your dinner. It's purely automatic.
 
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I agree that it is an automatic process and I might be stretching a bit to call it an instinct but that is how I see it.

There is a theory (which I may have got my wires crossed on) but it goes something like this:

Humans, in fact all multi cell creatures are not single entities (one body if you like) they are actually a collection of lots of organisms that rely upon each other (work together) I believe that there are certain corals where you can observe this "behaviour" externally. I think what I am trying to say is that a very complicated process is made up of lots of simple commands/inputs.

Ants are a good example of how very simple creatures can be capable of extremely complicated actions like Farming/cultivation.
Or when they make a "raft" to travel long distances by water, or the way they build their Cities.

It is very interesting that you made the analogy about the amount of thought that goes into the digestion of your dinner because it is my understanding that the human stomach has as many neurons as a cats brain, I don't know why this is but I am guessing that because of the diversity of our diets. again I am a bit sketchy on the details but I understand that the stomach has a role in the release of adrenaline in an "emergency" situation. Also "gut" instinct certainly has a bearing on my behaviour, for example I can usually tell if I am going to get on with someone within the first few minutes of meeting them, I have been wrong on only a very few occasions.

Humans are very good at training themselves to ignore or override their instincts, but we can also do this to animals. Think about the sheep dog, somehow it has made the connection that it is better to do what its "leader" tells it and it will be rewarded with constant food, rather than just eating the sheep on the spot.

One other thing that I often think about is the way that plants have trained us to ensure their survival, for example tobacco. I see this as a symbiotic relationship. We ensure that the tobacco plant is healthy and productive and in return the tobacco plant gets to ensure that its genes are passed on to the next generation of plants. the same is true of fruit but I didn't use this example because it is not necessarily about "pleasure" because we need to eat to survive, however in the case of tobacco it is just about "stimulation" of the brain/body.
 
Saw this story today and was reminded of this thread:

Meet the gargantuan air freighter that looks like a whale:
Meet the gargantuan air freighter that looks like a whale


_100695396_beluga_5_aircraft_aerial_view_.jpg
 
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