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The Myth of the ETH as the ETFact

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Paul Kimball

Guest
The Myth of the ETH as ETFact


[original at: http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2009/04/myth-of-eth-as-etfact.html]

The last column I wrote for Alien Worlds before it folded.

Paul

Above and Beyond
The Myth of the ETH as ETFact

Of all the non-terrestrial theories that have been offered to explain the UFO phenomenon, the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) has always seemed the most plausible one to me. I don't think it's been proved, but I think it's a better bet than the others on offer when one looks at the evidence, and the science.

The evidence seems to indicate that at least some UFO cases represent a non-human intelligence at work. The science now tells us that there are almost certainly other intelligent beings in the galaxy, and if they are more advanced than us, there's a reasonably good chance that they could make their way here.

However, it’s critical to remember that the key letter in ETH is the "H" - it's still just a hypothesis, and anyone who tells you that they can prove that aliens have visited Earth beyond a reasonable doubt, or even on the balance of probabilities, is putting the cart well before the horse.

Beyond that, however, I think the biggest problem with the ETH supporters within ufology is that they're so... "limited" in their outlook. They are convinced that aliens have visited Earth, and in many cases they are convinced that they are still visiting Earth, and interacting with humans in all sorts of ways, some good and some bad. They are of the "nuts and bolts" school of thought, i.e. Joe Alien made his way to Earth in a flying saucer, in much the same way that Captain Kirk and all of our other science fiction icons make their way about the galaxy.

This is what I call "Keyhoe-ian" ufology, because it is based directly on the way of thinking that Major Donald Keyhoe first put forward in the 1950s. It is out-of-date, and badly out-of-touch with modern science. It presumes that aliens are only a few decades, or maybe one or two hundred years or so more advanced than us, which is highly unlikely. It presumes that the aliens are preoccupied with us, and that we are somehow important to them, which is also highly unlikely. In short, it is a point of view that is based on what people who grew up in the pioneering days of sci-fi and the space race expect of their aliens, and not the point-of-view that modern physicists and astrobiologists take.

The pro-ETH as ETFact stance of people like Keyhoe and his successors, the most prominent of which has been the flying saucer physicist, Stanton Friedman, is a relic of a different time and place, which is ironic when one considers that these people often criticize scientists for not being open-minded about the UFO phenomenon, and for being stuck in the past.

If aliens are here, it is probable that they are far more advanced than we are, by an order of thousands of years, not hundreds. We would be to them as ants are to us - beneath their notice. This might well explain the inherent weirdness of many UFO sightings - things that appear to us almost as magic, or something that in a different era would have been framed in religious terms. As physicist Michio Kaku has noted, there may well be a galactic conversation going on, but in a "language" that we are thousands of years from being able to truly comprehend.

Of course, ETFact ufologists would quickly point out that there are at least a few humans who do indeed study ants - entomologists, which is true enough. But for them I have the following question: How many entomologists spend 60 years - or longer, if you are a proponent of the notion that ET has been coming here for centuries - studying the exact same ant hill?

That idea strikes me as ridiculous. It's a desperate attempt to force fit our own way of thinking onto potential life forms that would be far more advanced than we are - and they would have to be much more advanced in order to get here from there (ignore someone like Friedman, who will try to tell you about how it's actually relatively easy to get to our local galactic neighbours, if only we would try harder, and spend more money).

Again, I'm not saying that the ETH isn't a good hypothesis... indeed, as I noted before, I think it's the most plausible one amongst the various paranormal hypotheses on offer. It's the claim by nuts-and-bolts ufologists like Friedman and Keyhoe - and hucksters like Billy Meier - that ET is making his way here aboard flying saucers and acting like we do that I take issue with, because that contention is far more science fiction than science fact.

ETFacters Friedman and Keyhoe who try to convince you that aliens are basically just like us are no different from religious fundamentalists who portray God as a kindly, white-haired anglo saxon. Such portrayals tell you a great deal about the people who put those images and beliefs forward, but absolutely nothing about the possible entity or entities under discussion. The ETFacters are flying saucer fundamentalists, and in their own way they have done as much damage to the serious scientific study of the UFO phenomenon as people like Dr. Edward Condon, Dr. Donald Menzel, or Philip J. Klass.

By focusing on the idea that little green / grey men have been coming here in nuts and bolts spaceships, ETFacters have done a grave disservice to the search for truth about the UFO phenomenon, and its possible alien origins, in the same way that thousands of years of religious leaders have undermined the search for the true nature of God by force-fitting it into a limited paradigm that simply served to reinforce their own worldview. They have not sought wisdom, nor understanding - they have simply proclaimed an "answer" which has been no answer at all.

The reductionist approach that has been adopted by the ETFacters, which seeks to make potential alien life over unto our own image, lacks vision. It is more concerned with what they see as the destination, and their need to get there now, when what we should really be focusing on is the journey, and the wonders we may discover along the way. That's the real signal in all of this. Everything else is just noise.

The worst thing about all of this, however, is the hypocrisy that you find with many of the supposedly more serious members of the “ETFact group”. They are convinced that aliens are here, and interacting with humanity, but they are vocal critics of “exopolitics”, which simply takes the ETFact position to its logical conclusion.
Exopolitics, according to Dr. Michael Salla, one of its best known proponents, is:
“is the study of the key individuals, political institutions and processes associated with extraterrestrial life... exopolitics focus[es] on the political implications of an extraterrestrial presence known to clandestine quasi-governmental entities that keep knowledge of this presence secret from the general public, elected political officials & even senior military officials. The supporting evidence is overwhelming in scope and shows that decision making is restricted on a strict 'need to know' basis.”

Take the word "exopolitics" out of the equation, and that sounds like something Friedman would say. Indeed, if you've heard Friedman speak as many times as I have, you'll note the similarity in the main themes - aliens are here, government is covering up the knowledge of that fact, and we the people have a right to know the truth. At Salla's website for his "exopols courses", he even uses the motto "preparing for our cosmic graduation", which directly echoes Friedman's decades-old mantra that perhaps someday we will be ready to qualify for the cosmic kindergarten.

Friedman's biggest issue with exopolitics, at least in public, seems to be the fact that they are not terribly fussy about vetting their so-called witnesses and whistleblowers. In that respect, he's quite right. However, as more than one exopol has pointed out to me, Friedman has a history of touting his own very flawed witnesses (Gerald Anderson pops to mind right off the bat, followed closely by Glenn Dennis), and cases (Aztec, Flatwoods, flying saucer air wars in the 1950s, perhaps even Roswell).

Frankly, while I disagree with the very premise that underlies the exopolitical belief system (that at least some UFOs have been proved to be alien spacecraft), the more I think about it, the more I find the exopols to be more intellectually honest than people like Friedman, who agree with them on the big picture, but have done little or nothing to try and effect actual political change. The exopols have it right - if you believe aliens are here, and the government is covering it up, then that is a political issue of the highest order, and no longer a scientific one.

Friedman is the de facto Godfathers of Exopolitics - in large part, he created the "family" that is modern ETFact, "Cosmic Watergate" ufology, but like Vito Corleone, he is incapable of taking what he has created and moving it into its next logical phase. Indeed, like the Don, it is a phase that he wants nothing to do with, even as others around him, whom he has inspired, recognize the logical and inevitable implications of what he has been saying all of these years, and are prepared to act on it, no matter how much he protests.

The real scandal, however, is that Friedman, like other serious ETFacters, employs a double standard with absolutely no sense of irony when they run into people who question their position. Anyone they favour who is subjected to critical examination is a victim of “character assassination”, while people the ETFacters don't like, or whom they don't support, like Bob Lazar, or Philip Corso, or even Dr. J. Allen Hynek, are fair game (in Friedman’s universe, Hynek is "an apologist ufologist"). When you mention Dr. Jacques Vallee to them, they become even more desperate in their attacks. Anything that threatens to undermine the belief system they have constructed results in the ufological equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition.

People looking for the real scientific approach to the UFO phenomenon, the kind that was championed over the years by Hynek, Vallee, and Dr. James McDonald, should look elsewhere. Why? Because Hynek, McDonald and Vallee left us with myriad case investigations, new theories and ways of looking at the UFO phenomenon, sighting classification systems, and other important legacies. Even people like Friedman’s old classmate, Dr. Carl Sagan, left us with a sense of wonder about the prospect of ET life, even though he was no proponent of the ETH. On the other side, the ETFacters have left us with Roswell, MJ-12, Aztec, tales of massive flying saucer wars between the USAF and UFOs, and other stories that belong in a science fiction anthology, not a serious discussion of what the UFO phenomenon might or might not represent.

The shame is that someone like Friedman could have done so much more – if only he, like his ETFact fellow travelers, had not let their will to believe overwhelm their critical faculties. Those people who want the old time flying saucer / conspiracy gospel will feel right at home with them, because what they offer is comfortable, and provides a sense of continuity and familiarity, and even fraternity. What it does not offer, however, is an honest search for the truth about the UFO phenomenon.

It never did.
 
Have you sent this to Stan? Curious as to his response.

I'm sure Stan has read it, as the original piece was published in Alien Worlds magazine right after a full-length interview with... Stan! (which proves publisher Stuart Miller had a pretty good sense of humour).

As for what Stan thought of it, you would have to ask him. I doubt he thought of it at all in any meaningful way, which is part of the problem.

Paul
 
I'm sure Stan has read it, as the original piece was published in Alien Worlds magazine right after a full-length interview with... Stan! (which proves publisher Stuart Miller had a pretty good sense of humour).

As for what Stan thought of it, you would have to ask him. I doubt he thought of it at all in any meaningful way, which is part of the problem.

Paul

I brought the eth issues some people have with him up before, he didn't get back with me. Your name came up some where along one of our exchanges, can't recall why, and I recall he stating he disagrees with you on many issues but left it at that.
 
I brought the eth issues some people have with him up before, he didn't get back with me. Your name came up some where along one of our exchanges, can't recall why, and I recall he stating he disagrees with you on many issues but left it at that.

Yes, we disagree on many things, mostly because I still have the capacity to employ critical thinking, while Stan - god bless him - lost that ability some time ago.
 
Personally I think we lack enough information to make useful assumptions about how a spacefaring extraterrestrial civilisation would view us.
It's notable that people keep bringing up the ant analogy: what's interesting is that it is the ant that is immeasurably old (they go back to the Cretaceous in one form or another), and we who are young. Which just illustrates that you can't make assumptions based on time scales.

But more importantly, there is a reason why we don't pay attention to the ant: there is a fundamental difference in kind between an insect and a creature that is self-aware. You don't consider the ant's concerns, because it has none. You don't attempt to communicate with an ant, because there is nobody home to communicate with.

The situation is completely different with other animals, especially vertebrates (although we shouldn't ignore the mind of the octopus): when you look in the eyes of a cat or a dog or even a parrot you know there is an intelligence behind them, albeit an alien and limited one.

We do not know the upper limits of intelligence (if there are any), especially given the different cognitive capabilities that that covers. We have no basis for speculation on the interests of a creature more intelligent (in whatever ways) than ourselves.

Additionally, we don't know whether there is a roughly average level of cognitive ability required to develop a technological civilisation...and to what extent intelligence increases beyond that point.

I agree that the Star Trek version of the ETH is naive, but the ant thing is well, bollocks.
 
We do not know the upper limits of intelligence (if there are any), especially given the different cognitive capabilities that that covers. We have no basis for speculation on the interests of a creature more intelligent (in whatever ways) than ourselves.

I don't think they're more intelligent, necessarily, just more advanced. Humans have progressed from the level of cave men to that of astronaut and are still advancing fast. I think we can now discern the motives of the phenomenon, just as the essential nature of international relations hasn't really changed that much in thousands of years; there have always been arms races, alliances, diplomacy etc.
 

Thanks for posting a decent observation/argument regarding this topic.

I have to apologise that I must quote quite a lot of it in order to make my own observations known (sorry everyone, I know it's tedious).

Of all the non-terrestrial theories that have been offered to explain the UFO phenomenon, the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) has always seemed the most plausible one to me. I don't think it's been proved, but I think it's a better bet than the others on offer when one looks at the evidence, and the science.

The evidence seems to indicate that at least some UFO cases represent a non-human intelligence at work. The science now tells us that there are almost certainly other intelligent beings in the galaxy, and if they are more advanced than us, there's a reasonably good chance that they could make their way here.

Agreed, though I have a number of serious problems with the whole idea.

First of all. The nature of our own planet is very special. Earth has an unnaturally large core due to the collision with Thea when our solar system was forming. The large core produces magnetic fields that protect higher organisms on the surface of our world from damaging solar radiation. I think the number of planets in our galaxy that are situated in the Goldilocks zone and are protected by large magnetic fields must be a very small number. The Blake equation should now be altered to take this into account. The less 'habitable' planets there are, the greater the distances between them.

Secondly, the further we go out in our own solar system the more cluttered it gets, (Kuiper Belt, Oort Cloud, etc,). Even within the 'empty' space, close to the sun, there are trillions of small particles buzzing about. Any high speed craft (travelling near the speed of light) that collides with a grain of dust would instantly vapourise. The mode of travel used by the little green men (LGM), therefore, has to be beyond our present comprehension.

Beyond that, however, I think the biggest problem with the ETH supporters within ufology is that they're so... "limited" in their outlook. They are convinced that aliens have visited Earth, and in many cases they are convinced that they are still visiting Earth, and interacting with humans in all sorts of ways, some good and some bad. They are of the "nuts and bolts" school of thought, i.e. Joe Alien made his way to Earth in a flying saucer, in much the same way that Captain Kirk and all of our other science fiction icons make their way about the galaxy.

I have to agree with this. Again, though, I have a problems with it.

1. I have actually had an encounter with a 'nuts and bolts' craft. I did not have any personal interaction with a LGM though (thankfully).

2. The walnut shaped craft (the size of a supertanker) that harassed a Korean cargo Jumbo over Alaska was identified on both civilian and military radar. It was clearly 'nuts and bolts'.

3. The small craft that was mistakenly shot down by the British in northern Wales in 1974 was a nut's and bolts' craft (it was light enough to be lifted away by a large helicopter). The Brits brought it down by luring it into position after carefully monitoring the wind patterns and intentionally leaking radiation from Selafield. They then exploded a EMP mine under its flightpath and caused it to crash. They thought that it was a flying saucer being flown by the Russians that had been developed in Verdlovsk. Oops!

4. The Americans deliberately shot down a small craft in Varginha, Brazil, using a laser weapon. It was also lured there deliberately by using a radiation leak from a nearby nuclear plant. Why they would want to deliberately shoot down a ufo is totally beyond my comprehension.

This is what I call "Keyhoe-ian" ufology, because it is based directly on the way of thinking that Major Donald Keyhoe first put forward in the 1950s. It is out-of-date, and badly out-of-touch with modern science. It presumes that aliens are only a few decades, or maybe one or two hundred years or so more advanced than us, which is highly unlikely. It presumes that the aliens are preoccupied with us, and that we are somehow important to them, which is also highly unlikely. In short, it is a point of view that is based on what people who grew up in the pioneering days of sci-fi and the space race expect of their aliens, and not the point-of-view that modern physicists and astrobiologists take.

Donal Keyhoe (one of Gene's past acquaintances - sorry Gene) was a CIA disinformation agent. This was revealed by Andreas Epp (designer of steering mechanisms for Russian flying saucers). He stated categorically
that Major Keyhoe was the person that debriefed him when he defected. Therefore, Keyhoe should be distrusted completely.

The pro-ETH as ETFact stance of people like Keyhoe and his successors, the most prominent of which has been the flying saucer physicist, Stanton Friedman, is a relic of a different time and place, which is ironic when one considers that these people often criticize scientists for not being open-minded about the UFO phenomenon, and for being stuck in the past.

I have serious doubts about what Stanton Friedman says. He worked on many high level black projects in the late 1950s and early 1960s, most notably Project Orion (launching passenger liner sized spaceships into orbit using nuclear weapons as a propulsion mechanism). Who was he working for when he was trawling through the archives in the 1970s? Was it his work and the work of other 'experts' that lead to the changes in the Freedom of Information legislation in the late 1970s & early 1980s? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, doesn't it?

If aliens are here, it is probable that they are far more advanced than we are, by an order of thousands of years, not hundreds. .....

Millions, or billions of years, who knows???

... It's the claim by nuts-and-bolts ufologists like Friedman and Keyhoe - and hucksters like Billy Meier - that ET is making his way here aboard flying saucers and acting like we do that I take issue with, because that contention is far more science fiction than science fact.

Meier is not worth including in conversation. Forget him, he is a nutter!

... The ETFacters are flying saucer fundamentalists, and in their own way they have done as much damage to the serious scientific study of the UFO phenomenon as people like Dr. Edward Condon, Dr. Donald Menzel, or Philip J. Klass.

Agreed. But, there's still the problem that I have regarding my own personal encounter I had with a 'nuts and bolts' entity. I hope you are beginning to appreciate the difficulties that I have with this whole topic.

The reductionist approach that has been adopted by the ETFacters, which seeks to make potential alien life over unto our own image, lacks vision. It is more concerned with what they see as the destination, and their need to get there now, when what we should really be focusing on is the journey, and the wonders we may discover along the way. That's the real signal in all of this. Everything else is just noise.

Sadly, my own endeavours to understand how we get to 42 has left me in a very weird world indeed. I really went out of the box and somehow managed to connect all the dots of my own life experience. I'm now reluctant to speak openly about what I sincerely believe because of the ridicule that I would receive.

Your endeavours in trying to explain the nature of the exopolitical 'debate' are very well informed and your conclusions are reasonable, therefore there is no reason for me to quote any of it. My own thoughts on the subject are quite simplistic. Everybody knows that something is being withheld, so many then conclude that the reason why it is being withheld is malicious. I suspect that certain information is being withheld for the simple reason that it can not be adequately described.

There may well be reasonable grounds to suspect that the release of such information might cause general civil unrest. There is also the unusual demise of James Forrestal. That was a strange set of circumstances.

http://rdolan.hostcentric.com/deathofjamesf.html

One little quote though

Friedman's biggest issue with exopolitics, at least in public, seems to be the fact that they are not terribly fussy about vetting their so-called witnesses and whistleblowers. In that respect, he's quite right. However, as more than one exopol has pointed out to me, Friedman has a history of touting his own very flawed witnesses (Gerald Anderson pops to mind right off the bat, followed closely by Glenn Dennis), and cases (Aztec, Flatwoods, flying saucer air wars in the 1950s, perhaps even Roswell).

Roswell is now so confused that I do not even consider it when thinking about the extraterrestrial question. What does strike me as odd though, is the fact that a squadron of fighters were deployed in the area immediately after the alledged incident. Perhaps it might be interesting if someone checked the records to see if any anti-aircraft batteries were also established. If anti-aircraft batteries were established then the question becomes why? (lol)

Thanks again for your interesting, and informed, article.

-rainy day woman-
 
The nature of our own planet is very special. Earth has an unnaturally large core due to the collision with Thea when our solar system was forming.

What was that, Mars-sized i.e. about a tenth our present mass? Any terrestrial planet big enough for life is likely to have a magnetic field; even Mercury has a detectable one.



The large core produces magnetic fields that protect higher organisms on the surface of our world from damaging solar radiation.

Much protection is conferred by an atmosphere alone, including ozone to screen out UV-- an inevitable product of the oxygen producing life processes.

The less 'habitable' planets there are, the greater the distances between them.

True but to an ultimate mode of travel e.g. possiblly via wormholes, distance may mean little.

Secondly, the further we go out in our own solar system the more cluttered it gets, (Kuiper Belt, Oort Cloud, etc,). Even within the 'empty' space, close to the sun, there are trillions of small particles buzzing about. Any high speed craft (travelling near the speed of light) that collides with a grain of dust would instantly vapourise. The mode of travel used by the little green men (LGM), therefore, has to be beyond our present comprehension.

Not necessarily, or entirely. Read Kaku. :)



The Brits brought it down by luring it into position after carefully monitoring the wind patterns and intentionally leaking radiation from Selafield...4. The Americans deliberately shot down a small craft in Varginha, Brazil, using a laser weapon. It was also lured there deliberately by using a radiation leak from a nearby nuclear plant.

Well I don't know, I take such claims with a grain of salt--remember Gruenen?



Donal Keyhoe (one of Gene's past acquaintances - sorry Gene) was a CIA disinformation agent.....I have serious doubts about what Stanton Friedman says.

The book Revealed! The Greatest UFO Secrets favors that same interpretation. And they sure weren't alone....


Meier is not worth including in conversation. Forget him, he is a nutter!

Right.


There may well be reasonable grounds to suspect that the release of such information might cause general civil unrest. There is also the unusual demise of James Forrestal

Yep.

Roswell is now so confused that I do not even consider it when thinking about the extraterrestrial question.

Don't let all the attempts to muddy the waters get you down.
 
What was that, Mars-sized i.e. about a tenth our present mass? Any terrestrial planet big enough for life is likely to have a magnetic field; even Mercury has a detectable one.

Yes, it has been calculated that Thea was about that size. The most important aspect of the whole thing is not just the magnetic field though. The debris created the moon. The moon is big enough to keep our rotation stable. This stability has allowed evolution to function, thereby ending up with us being here.

The larger than expected core, along with the aditional tidal effects caused by the close proximity of the moon, means that geology is still being driven on earth. Geology is a significant factor in evolution (separating continents, building mountain ranges, etc)

The magnetic field also protects against solar winds which would tend to blow the atmosphere away.

Earth is a very special place. The likelihood of sophisticated evolution occurring without the Thea collision would be minimized. I suspect that sentient organisms could only evolve on a planet with some special attributes. I do think that the galaxy is probably teeming with life, though I am not so sure that there is an abundance of civilisations out there. We are probably very few, and very far between.

Much protection is conferred by an atmosphere alone, including ozone to screen out UV-- an inevitable product of the oxygen producing life processes.

Yep, as stated above, the magnetic fields contributes to the stability of the atmosphere.

True but to an ultimate mode of travel e.g. possiblly via wormholes, distance may mean little.

The energy required to create wormholes is unimaginable. The frequency of sightings of unidentifiable craft (I appreciate the vast majority of sightings are terrestrial origin objects) is such that the overall energy requirement is simply mind blowing. There might well be another way to travel such distances, it is just not within our grasp.

Not necessarily, or entirely. Read Kaku. :)

I'm not a physicist. I simply have a gut feeling that there's a lot more junk out there then we might expect, given the current paradigms.

Well I don't know, I take such claims with a grain of salt--remember Gruenen?

I don't want to shoot myself in the foot over this. All I can say is that I had a little privileged access to some information regarding the Welsh incident. The Brazilian one is just too similar to be a coincidence.

The book Revealed! The Greatest UFO Secrets favors that same interpretation. And they sure weren't alone....

Havn't read it. I'm not a great reader of books, simply because I can't put the damn thing down once I've opened the first page. Reading books simply knocks my biorhythms out of whack.

Don't let all the attempts to muddy the waters get you down.

lol - not a problem

- rainey day woman -
 
Earth is a very special place. The likelihood of sophisticated evolution occurring without the Thea collision would be minimized. I suspect that sentient organisms could only evolve on a planet with some special attributes. I do think that the galaxy is probably teeming with life, though I am not so sure that there is an abundance of civilisations out there. We are probably very few, and very far between.

Well I don't know, maybe intelligent life is possible under circumstances significantly different from those here. Imagine a roughly Earth-sized moon orbiting close to a gas giant within the biosphere of a star smaller than our sun. Even if the planet never experienced a Thea type event--assuming such an event was indeed critical to habitability--it might derive sufficient protection from the magnetic field of the gas giant. And, whereas a planet close to another star would normally be tidally locked, this one could evade its effects by orbiting the gas giant, so that it wouldn't have a permanent night side.



I'm not a physicist.

Nor I. But even now, some experiments, like teleportation and quantum tunneling, hint that we're slowly acquiring the basic knowledge.



I don't want to shoot myself in the foot over this. All I can say is that I had a little privileged access to some information regarding the Welsh incident.

Information, or disinformation? :) Revealed!....makes a case that reports of this kind belong in the latter category.
 
First of all. The nature of our own planet is very special. ... ...
The Blake equation should now be altered to take this into account. The less 'habitable' planets there are, the greater the distances between them.

The mode of travel used by the little green men (LGM), therefore, has to be beyond our present comprehension.

We will know in a matter of years whether Earth is rare or not, ala Kepler Mission. And if NASA finds a plethora of similar planets in the habitable zone, then we will surmise that Earth is not rare and the potential for life, even intelligence, is quite probable. And you mean the "Drake" equation right?

The travel may be beyond our comprehension at the time being, but that doesn't preclude the attainability of such travel. We need to crack this one if we intend on moving into space.

2. The walnut shaped craft (the size of a supertanker) that harassed a Korean cargo Jumbo over Alaska was identified on both civilian and military radar. It was clearly 'nuts and bolts'.
Are you talking about the Japan airlines encounter or some other Korean airliner. And could you provide a link for this?

4. The Americans deliberately shot down a small craft in Varginha, Brazil, using a laser weapon. It was also lured there deliberately by using a radiation leak from a nearby nuclear plant. Why they would want to deliberately shoot down a ufo is totally beyond my comprehension.

What?!?!:eek: How do you know this with the certainty that you seem to have??

Donal Keyhoe (one of Gene's past acquaintances - sorry Gene) was a CIA disinformation agent. This was revealed by Andreas Epp (designer of steering mechanisms for Russian flying saucers). He stated categorically
that Major Keyhoe was the person that debriefed him when he defected. Therefore, Keyhoe should be distrusted completely.
Never heard this, could you provide some more info? Epp designed flying saucer steering?? And his sole account means that Keyhoe was a disinfo agent?? thanks, this is just hard to digest without some verification.
 
We will know in a matter of years whether Earth is rare or not, ala Kepler Mission.

Right. Kepler type missions should've had priority over Mars missions, considering that Mars is way too small to be a good potential abode of life; many extrasolar planets may hold more promise. I wonder if Kepler could detect "Serpo" if it really exists near Zeta Reticuli. :)

The travel may be beyond our comprehension at the time being, but that doesn't preclude the attainability of such travel.

Indeed, there's ample evidence others have already; they're here.


What?!?!:eek: How do you know this with the certainty that you seem to have??

I doubt it very much myself.


Never heard this, could you provide some more info? Epp designed flying saucer steering?? And his sole account means that Keyhoe was a disinfo agent?? thanks, this is just hard to digest without some verification.

The book Revealed!...notes strong, suspicious parallels between his views and those of other disinfo. agents. That in addition to the disinfo. accusations that others have made.
 
I have serious doubts about what Stanton Friedman says. He worked on many high level black projects in the late 1950s and early 1960s, most notably Project Orion (launching passenger liner sized spaceships into orbit using nuclear weapons as a propulsion mechanism). Who was he working for when he was trawling through the archives in the 1970s? Was it his work and the work of other 'experts' that lead to the changes in the Freedom of Information legislation in the late 1970s & early 1980s? Hmmm.... makes you wonder, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. For all of my disagreements with Stan, I have known the man for over 30 years, and I will stake my reputation on the fact that he is 100% sincere in his beliefs, and in no way some sort of disinformation agent or government operative. Just because someone once worked for the government, or for private companies with government contracts, or is friends with someone who worked for the CIA, for example (as I was friends with Karl Pflock), doesn't make them some sort of dark agent. With respect, that kind of careless, unsubstantiated conspiratorial mindset is part of what makes ufology a laughingstock within the mainstream.

Paul
 
For all of my disagreements with Stan, I have known the man for over 30 years, and I will stake my reputation on the fact that he is 100% sincere in his beliefs, and in no way some sort of disinformation agent or government operative.

In fact there are good grounds for suspecting it. He sure wouldn't be the only agent who sounded sincere enough to fool people.


Just because someone once worked for the government, or for private companies with government contracts, or is friends with someone who worked for the CIA, for example (as I was friends with Karl Pflock), doesn't make them some sort of dark agent.

Maybe not in itself but the government has recruited a plethora of agents, so it wouldn't be at all surprising......

With respect, that kind of careless, unsubstantiated conspiratorial mindset is part of what makes ufology a laughingstock within the mainstream.

In fact, it is the uncritical acceptance of what many alleged witnesses have claimed that has done the most harm. This field is awash with outlandish and suspicious stories emanating from people who've been in touch with the government.
 
^^ Exactly. And calling Keyhoe a CIA dis-info agent with such certainty is just as bad. When you think about the time frame that he was operating in, he was drawing so much attention to the subject that he would have caused more harm than good.

Theres that video of an interview he did where he is being mocked and ridiculed by the host - and all Keyhoe is trying to do is communicate the message that there is a reality to the UFO issue. Not the sort of thing you would see a disinfo agent doing.

edit- RDW: Care to share anything more you learned about the Welsh incident based on your 'privileged info'?
 
In fact there are good grounds for suspecting it.
And what, exactly, are these "good grounds"? A statement like that requires you to set them out, and not just claim that they exist.

He sure wouldn't be the only agent who sounded sincere enough to fool people.
Yes, quite so - people do get fooled. I think the ones who get fooled the most, however, are the ones whose default reaction is to assume someone is a disinformation agent when they disagree with them.

Maybe not in itself but the government has recruited a plethora of agents, so it wouldn't be at all surprising......
A plethora? As related to UFOs? Fascinating - care to name them?

In fact, it is the uncritical acceptance of what many alleged witnesses have claimed that has done the most harm. This field is awash with outlandish and suspicious stories emanating from people who've been in touch with the government.

I agree with the first sentence completely, and part of the second, i.e. yes, there have been a few government operatives mucking about in the UFO "field" - but far, far fewer than conspiracists think, at least in terms of what can be proven.

Paul
 
Hm... so i've just tried to read make sense of that article but i'm not sure i am getting it.
Its been a long day and i just broke a rib in training so its hard to concentrate but are you basically saying we shouldnt try to predict/judge what ufo's are by using our own standards, as our standards are probably thousands of years behind, and possibly not even relevant anyway because we are a completely different race?

If thats correct then i agree, but at the same time you need to make judgements based upon what you know to a certain degree as its all you can do and is the most likely chance of getting it right.

As an example, David on the paracast (along with many others over the years) is always bringing up the idea that UFO's might not just be from another planet, but they might be interdimensional instead or both.

I have a problem with this theory however, and thats the fact that we don't even know if other dimensions exist, so its a theory based upon a theory which for me might as well be sci-fi.

They say "why do aliens have to be from another planet, its closed minded to think so, why cant they be from another dimension". But I say "atleast we know that there actually are planets, and there is probably a good chance that they have life on them, we don't even know if there are other dimensions"

This in my opinion makes the chances of UFO's being aliens from another planet much higher than them being something from another dimension.

I've also heard "by their very nature, if they are interplanetary, they must be interdimensional or how would they get here in the first place"... that to me is again very presumptuous, since like before we don't know if dimensions exist, and we certainly don't know enough about the physics of the universe to say that it MUST be how to travel huge distances, maybe there is some other way we just havent discovered yet.

Not having a bash at David or anyone here, its just my opinion
 
and all Keyhoe is trying to do is communicate the message that there is a reality to the UFO issue. Not the sort of thing you would see a disinfo agent doing.

:) A disinfo. agent is not a skeptic. Despite the latter's best efforts, some will inevitably believe--since UFOs are real. If they can't stop some people from believing, they can at least plant false ideas. That's an excellent way to hide the truth.
 
And what, exactly, are these "good grounds"? A statement like that requires you to set them out, and not just claim that they exist.

It's a long story...The book Revealed!..spells it all out. People are so naive. Ever wonder why Friedman, who purports to be striving to uncover the truth, was never silenced by the government ? :) Sure, I wasn't either, but I don't purport to have access to inside knowlege.

Yes, quite so - people do get fooled. I think the ones who get fooled the most, however, are the ones whose default reaction is to assume someone is a disinformation agent when they disagree with them.

I don't, but a person prone to suspicion is not as likely to be fooled.


A plethora? As related to UFOs? Fascinating - care to name them?

I don't have enough time or space to name half....Corso and Brown were classic examples; so were Cooper and Dean.


I agree with the first sentence completely, and part of the second, i.e. yes, there have been a few government operatives mucking about in the UFO "field" - but far, far fewer than conspiracists think, at least in terms of what can be proven.

There have been many. The government has clearly covered up, and speading a bunch of lies via a bunch of agents is part of the effort to keep the truth from being known.
 
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