The Great Aztec Debate

[Burnt State]

Even if it was a military measurement, how is one single slab going to help the crane? Would there not need to be multiple slabs to keep the crane stable? The argument put forth is that this footing is to stabilize one leg of a crane - would that not be useless if the weight is immense as the crane would then have no balance.

 

[Bob Zanotti]

Even if it was a military measurement, how is one single slab going to help the crane? Would there not need to be multiple slabs to keep the crane stable? The argument put forth is that this footing is to stabilize one leg of a crane - would that not be useless if the weight is immense as the crane would then have no balance.

Your point is well taken. This might imply that no crane was involved, but that there was an entirely different purpose in the slab or footing. This is my point: the construction looks military, but the purpose is entirely unclear.

 

[Rizla]

Another thing they didn't bring up in the show. Monte Shriver said: "At my recent class reunion with members of the classes of 1951 and 52, I asked them if they knew Virgil Riggs and if they remembered any talk of a UFO crashing north of Aztec. Many of them remembered Mr. Riggs, but no one, including me, could remember anyone talking about a UFO crash in the Aztec area during the 40’s and 50’s. As one of my classmates said, if we had heard about a UFO crash in Hart Canyon, we would have been all over the place looking for it." That seems relevant to me.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

One thing that bothers me is that this supposedly happened in small town America where everyone knows everybody and everything. So why didn't they hear about such a thing?

 

[Bob Zanotti]

One thing that bothers me is that this supposedly happened in small town America where everyone knows everybody and everything. So why didn't they hear about such a thing?

Another good point, Gene. I live in a small village in the Emmental, and there's nothing that escapes the locals. In the case of Aztec, part of the answer might be in my notion that this was some sort of low key, routine military exercise, maybe invloving a joint NATO training mission of some kind. I *presume* that things like that went on in the New Mexico outback rather frequently. The military continues to do the same thing today in restricted areas, and military tends to stick to established patterns. Building temporary constructions like the concrete slab in question is typical of military training exercises.

I'm not a skeptic or debunker, as you well know. But it's always best to look for a mundane explanation before we go into other dimensions.

 

[Randall]

I'm not a skeptic or debunker, as you well know. But it's always best to look for a mundane explanation before we go into other dimensions.

If I may interject. That begs the question of how we define the mundane. Our society is based largely on invention and technology and we can extrapolate from those accomplishments the possibility of the ETH. Therefore in a hierarchy of probability, is it less mundane to consider the ETH than it is alternate dimensions? I tend to think so. In fact I see the whole notion of something coming from alternate dimensions as nonsensical.

 

[Bob Zanotti]

You're preaching to the converted. But in the issue at hand, to me, it's inverted logic to assume the fantastic first then work down from there. Aztec might well have been a crashed UFO, but it may also have been an ordinary military exercise, embellished by an active, commercially-inspired imagination (Frank Scully). It would be narrow-minded not to accept *that* possibility.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

More than likely, this is yet another case that will never be resolved.

 

[Burnt State]

As you said in the newsletter, these crashes will never get proved. Too much time has passed; too little concrete information to look at. All that remains are the peripheral death bed confessions of those claiming to be associated with Roswell. I think the highly credible, detailed documentation of primary and secondary sources undertaken by Sentry, and opened up to the public for the Cash/Landrum event, is the way to go. Unbiased reporting without agendas will move Sisyphus' stone a little further up the hill (before it rolls over you on the way back down to Aztec).

 

[Bob Zanotti]

Restricted Military Areas Map

I came across this, for whatever it's worth. It might help explain why the USA seems to be the favorite destination of the UFOs.

http://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFMQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denix.osd.mil%2Fsri%2Fupload%2FSRR2012-AppendixCFigures.pdf&ei=8B77Udf6IIzDPLOkgIAD&usg=AFQjCNGxUmi05XmtuO9oxaqV1pMUJeiCKQ&bvm=bv.50165853,d.ZWU

And I *do* believe in the existance of UFOs. The only issue, as always, is which ones are real and where do they come from.

 

[Randall]

Restricted Military Areas Map ... It might help explain why the USA seems to be the favorite destination of the UFOs.

Cool find. And for some strange reason I feel less paranoid that I downloaded it from a Starbucks Wi-Fi too .

 

[Bob Zanotti]

Let's move on, and use some basic investigative journalistic logic (now virtually extinct or at least an endangered species)...

The above link proves that northeastern New Mexico is classified as a military operations area MOA, and probably has been for a long time. The next door to knock on is the US Department of Defense, to request any information regarding any military operations or exercises that may have taken place in March 1948 in the Hart Canyon area, and their exact nature (the military requires exact reports of activities). The worst that can happen is a "we don't know", at which point, we go back to square one or look for other links.

I've done lots of this kind of stuff in my nearly 50 years as a journalist - it used to be considered routine - but I lack the inclination to take this particular story up right now, so I'll leave it to those who make money at it, or do it as a hobby.

As Nick Redfern recently said, it's really so simple to find information if you just look for it. This is one of the things about UFO and paranormal research that irritates me: that it's based so much on hear-say and speculation instead of methodical research. So many people prefer to guess rather than to know. You have to go after it; it's not going to fall into you lap. (At this point, I want to acknowledge that Scott Ramsey has, indeed, invested a lot of time and money in research. Perhaps now, it's time for some "fine-tuning" of that research).

Resources - Federal Agency Records Officers - Department of Defense

 

[Rizla]

"In a hierarchy of probability, is it less mundane to consider the ETH than it is alternate dimensions? I tend to think so. In fact I see the whole notion of something coming from alternate dimensions as nonsensical."

I get where you're coming from. With respect, I think that the ETH and the "alternate dimension" hypothesis (Moseley called it "3 1/2-D") are both outrageous hypotheses. I don't think either is impossible. The main thing the 3 1/2-D hypothesis can do is explain (?) some of the extreme weirdness of UFO encounters. It's a philosophical last resort, almost like saying "Fortean", i.e., we don't understand what is going on, and it must come from somewhere that's beyond our current scientific awareness. The biggest flaw in the ETH, which is often unstated but nevertheless glaring: There isn't a shred, not one, of physical evidence, from fifty-plus years of UFO sightings, close encounters, and landings. If these are physical ships made of metal or whatever, they're going to leave a trace of something. A lot of the 3 or 4-D UFO stuff doesn't go so far to state "inter-dimensional", which, even though physicists play with the ideas all the time in quantum and string theory, makes me as queasy as anyone. To me, it's more about human consciousness, i.e., UFO's seem to have an interest in human consciousness; they behave in ways that make no sense for space travelers, they seem obsessed with us. The idea of an alien species traveling huge distances, just to buzz us a few times and sow complete confusion, seems really nonsensical. Why would they be so obsessed with us? We study sea turtles, great apes, botanical curiosities, but we're hardly going to great lengths to mess with their minds, so to speak. I agree with Jim Moseley's philosophy, which was that whatever this intelligence behind UFO's may be, that it's connected to us, somehow, and not, as he once wrote me, "space ships or space men" who just happened to stop by. Of course, I'm no wiser than anyone else on the matter. But I appreciate all the opinions on this thread. This forum is about as good as it gets on this subject on the internet. My best to all of you. (apologies for philosophic non-sequiturs throughout, tough to avoid in Ufology!)

 

[Bob Zanotti]

The above dialogue is fine and legitimate. However, I would just like to put the record straight in that my original reference to "other dimensions" was meant rhetorically and not literally. I should have made that clear, but didn't. I didn't expect to be taken literally. I could or should have used the terms “other worlds” or "unconventional". In other words, all I was saying was: let’s think conventional first and esoteric later.

Having said this, I am wide open to anything, and am capable of accepting any idea or theory, and that includes a multi-dimentional theory. Why not?!!! Nothing is impoossible. In fact, the multi-dimensional theory has a lot going for it.

 

[Randall]

... The biggest flaw in the ETH, which is often unstated but nevertheless glaring: There isn't a shred, not one, of physical evidence, from fifty-plus years of UFO sightings, close encounters, and landings. If these are physical ships made of metal or whatever, they're going to leave a trace of something. ... Of course, I'm no wiser than anyone else on the matter. But I appreciate all the opinions on this thread. This forum is about as good as it gets on this subject on the internet. My best to all of you. (apologies for philosophic non-sequiturs throughout, tough to avoid in Ufology!)

Hey there Rizla, I have to agree with you on how the Paracast forum compares to the others out there. It's a notch above. I also have to agree with you that scientifically verifiable material evidence would help, but I think the lack of that evidence is applicable to any theory that holds that UFOs are material craft. Also, the accumulated evidence by way of observation and detection are sufficient to make it reasonable to believe that UFOs ( alien craft ), are real. The rest remains a mystery to us civilians who aren't in the know ( yes this implies there are other people who do know ).

... I am wide open to anything, and am capable of accepting any idea or theory, and that includes a multi-dimentional theory. Why not?!!! Nothing is impoossible. In fact, the multi-dimensional theory has a lot going for it.

Well, some things are impossible in a strictly logical sense ( e.g. only correct mathematical solutions can be correct ). Other things, like alternate dimensions may be possible in an abstract mathematical sense, but if we define the extradimensional hypothesis for UFOs ( let's call it the EDH ) in literal terms, as in craft capable of going to and from a Fifth or Sixth Dimension beyond our 4D spacetime, then yes, it's logically impossible. Why? Because when we look at the nature of dimensionality we find that there is an inescapable hierarchy and that each successive dimension is dependent upon the previous for its existence. In other words W cannot exist without first having L, and H cannot exist without first having L and W. Therefore nothing can exist solely in 3 dimensions without the other two being an inherent property of it. Throwing time into the mix completes the model. So any hypothetical extra dimensions would need to be inserted between dimensions 3 and 4, otherwise we end up branching off into an entirely alternate universe ( we can muse on this particular point later, or we'll get side tracked ).

So given the inherent nature of dimensionality, any fourth spatial dimension requires the pre-existence of the first three dimensions below it and must exist simultaneously with the other three. Therefore just like it would be impossible for any 3 dimensional object to exist solely in the third dimension, no object can exist solely in the fourth dimension without simultaneously existing in the first 3 as well, which means that it's impossible for some object to just fly out of the fourth dimension and into the third because it must already be made of all three other dimensions to begin with. A little more reflection on this makes it clear that if we assume there are more than three spatial dimensions in this universe, then everything must be composed of them because no solely one or two or three or four dimensional object can exist. These are the reasons why the EDH is nonsense. However its close relative the Alternate Universe Hypothesis ( AUH ) is another story. The AUH is hypothetically possible and IMO seems to be what some people are actually trying to express when they use the word "dimension". In an alternate universe, objects would have their own physical makeup and could conceivably be inserted into our universe, making it appear as though it had just popped into existence.

 

[ondafritz]

I would love to have walked away from this debate thinking that Scott Ramsey had really broken the case open in my ears. That is not the case. Without benefit of Kevin Randle it now appears to me that Aztec is a great story. But that's all. I'd love to see more evidence to change my mind!

 

[Burnt State]

Ufology, re: alternate dimensions. I appreciate your resolve regarding logic and what current science tells us. However, if there are other dimensions currently concealed from us and our limited perspectives, then would not things from dimension nine simply appear to us in a manner that we could not explain or clearly understand, kinda the way the UFO phenomenon continues to completely elude us?

 

[Randall]

Ufology, re: alternate dimensions. I appreciate your resolve regarding logic and what current science tells us. However, if there are other dimensions currently concealed from us and our limited perspectives, then would not things from dimension nine simply appear to us in a manner that we could not explain or clearly understand, kinda the way the UFO phenomenon continues to completely elude us?

Perceiving higher dimensions isn't something akin to not being able to see UV light or hear ultrasonic frequencies. Rather the whole concept of something being able to exist solely in some higher spatial dimension and pop in and out of our 3D realm is not a logical possibility. If you're having some trouble grasping the logic there, I can try to help. It's certainly not immediately evident to everyone. Or if you do get the logic and you think I'm just not seeing how you're able to get around it, then maybe I'm the one who needs help. Either way I'm open to discussion.

Apart from that, if we substitute the word "universe" for "dimension" then it opens up the kinds of possibilities you are alluding to. Next to the ETH, it seems to be the best fit.

 

[Rizla]

I enjoy all this speculation of Alternate Dimensions and/or/not Higher Dimensions, and I like people with intellectual rigor (and a sense of fun) who want to argue about 3 1/2 D and the ETH... Good fun and it sharpens the brain. I rule out neither of them, I just vacillate between which is less, shall we say, delusional. It's a hard case to argue. I end up on the 3 1/2 D side just out of gut instinct. And I insist, I'd love to be proved wrong, 'cause it would mean someone might care, someone with the tech to help save us. So, all respect to your hypothesis.

I find human consciousness to be an often neglected part of Ufological banter. I asked a few times, earlier, why these aliens should be so obsessed with us. Not curious, obsessed. How could they care about human hang-ups? And human sexuality, in so many anbductions? How could they be so fascinated? To abduct people and mess around to no real purpose? That's my argument against ETH. The ETH is totally possible. May you be right, and a tip of the glass your way regardless, USI Calgary.

 

[Randall]

I enjoy all this speculation of Alternate Dimensions and/or/not Higher Dimensions, and I like people with intellectual rigor (and a sense of fun) who want to argue about 3 1/2 D and the ETH... Good fun and it sharpens the brain. I rule out neither of them, I just vacillate between which is less, shall we say, delusional. It's a hard case to argue. I end up on the 3 1/2 D side just out of gut instinct. And I insist, I'd love to be proved wrong, 'cause it would mean someone might care, someone with the tech to help save us. So, all respect to your hypothesis.

I find human consciousness to be an often neglected part of Ufological banter. I asked a few times, earlier, why these aliens should be so obsessed with us. Not curious, obsessed. How could they care about human hang-ups? And human sexuality, in so many anbductions? How could they be so fascinated? To abduct people and mess around to no real purpose? That's my argument against ETH. The ETH is totally possible. May you be right, and a tip of the glass your way regardless, USI Calgary.

I proposed an idea related to human consciousness that fits with the ETH and offers an explanation for the focus that the aliens have with humans, including some of the seemingly contradictory behavior. The last place I mentioned it was in a response to this month's Paracast Newsletter: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/your-paracast-newsletter-august-4-2013.13666/#post-166374