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The Electric Universe Theory


Backreaction of Hawking radiation on a gravitationally collapsing star I: Black holes?
Physics Letters B
Volume 738, 10 November 2014, Pages 61–67

LINK: Backreaction of Hawking radiation on a gravitationally collapsing star I: Black holes?
TEXT: "Abstract
"Particle creation leading to Hawking radiation is produced by the changing gravitational field of the collapsing star. The two main initial conditions in the far past placed on the quantum field from which particles arise, are the Hartle–Hawking vacuum and the Unruh vacuum. The former leads to a time-symmetric thermal bath of radiation, while the latter to a flux of radiation coming out of the collapsing star. The energy of Hawking radiation in the interior of the collapsing star is negative and equal in magnitude to its value at future infinity. This work investigates the backreaction of Hawking radiation on the interior of a gravitationally collapsing star, in a Hartle–Hawking initial vacuum. It shows that due to the negative energy Hawking radiation in the interior, the collapse of the star stops at a finite radius, before the singularity and the event horizon of a black hole have a chance to form. That is, the star bounces instead of collapsing to a black hole. A trapped surface near the last stage of the star's collapse to its minimum size may still exist temporarily. Its formation depends on the details of collapse. Results for the case of Hawking flux of radiation with the Unruh initial state, will be given in a companion paper II.

1. Introduction
"The backreaction of Hawking radiation onto a star collapsing into a black hole, is a long standing problem of major importance. It carries the tantalizing possibility that black holes may not form at all. Hawking radiation arises as particle creation from curved space–time quantum field theory. Therefore if its backreaction on the star's dynamics is significant, it would provide an example of the crucial role quantum effects play on strong gravitational fields such as those of massive imploding stars.

"In 1939, Oppenheimer and Snyder, found that the ultimate fate of a spherically symmetric collapsing star is a collapse to a black hole. In 1974 and 1975, Hawking, then Parker, found that quantum effects from the curved space time produced by the strong gravitational field of a star collapsing into a black hole, give rise to a thermal flux of particle production, known as Hawking radiation.

"Despite the efforts devoted to understanding the physics of black holes since Hawking's discovery of radiation, the main stumbling block in these efforts has been the issue of information loss paradox stated in various forms. One of the most spectacular paradoxes stemming from the information loss mystery, is the recent 'firewall' problem raised in, then followed by the forecasting of.

"Amidst all the puzzles and paradoxes, a trivial possibility is that black holes may not form. This possibility is the focus of the current study. Within a set of approximations, such as assumptions of spherical symmetry and homogeneity of a star collapsing into a black hole, this work shows that a black hole may not form when the backreaction of the quantum flux of particles created is taken into account in the collapse dynamics of the star.

"In the next stage of this investigation, we drop some of the assumptions made here in solving the 4-dimensional Einstein equations for the interior of the collapsing star with a radiation flux, and use the Unruh vacuum as the initial state of the quantum field in the far past. Those results and their comparison to the method presented here will be given elsewhere."

[See linked article for analysis.]​
 
If I wind up duplicating a post please pardon. :confused: I circle back a lot on older videos. All good. :)

Hydrogen River Between Galaxies Breaks the Rules | Space News
TEXT: "Published on Feb 28, 2014: Scientists using the Green Bank Telescope have observed what they describe as a river of neutral hydrogen streaming into the Galaxy NGC 6946. The researchers conclude that this tenuous filament of gas is providing the necessary fuel for the high rate of star formation in the spiral galaxy."
 
Is Consciousness More than the Brain? | Interview with Dr. Gary Schwartz
TEXT: "Published on Oct 1, 2014"
 
Some background - for context.

Electricity in Space - Information they don't want you to know about - The Electric Universe
TEXT: "Published on Sep 23, 2012: WARNING, This video contains controversial subject matter and it is being shared for educational purposes only. Please educate yourself so that you can make informed decisions on the things that effect your life."
 
PAUL ANDERSON: Electrical Discharge on Earth's Surface | EU 2013
TEXT: "Published on Apr 16, 2013: Here Paul Anderson, PhD., presents new evidence for an electrical interpretation of unique ravine formations on the Earth."
 
If you can follow the equations, fascinating stuff. :)

RON HATCH: Relativity in the Light of GPS | EU 2013

TEXT: "Published on Apr 6, 2013: Perhaps you've already heard that GPS, by the very fact that it WORKS, confirms Einstein's relativity; also that Black Holes must be real. But these are little more than popular fictions, according to the distinguished GPS expert Ron Hatch. Here Ron describes GPS data that refute fundamental tenets of both the Special and General Relativity theories. The same experimental data, he notes, suggests an absolute frame with only an appearance of relativity.

"Ron has worked with satellite navigation and positioning for 50 years, having demonstrated the Navy's TRANSIT System at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair. He is well known for innovations in high-accuracy applications of the GPS system including the development of the "Hatch Filter" which is used in most GPS receivers. He has obtained over two dozen patents related to GPS positioning and is currently a member of the U.S National PNT (Positioning Navigation and Timing) Advisory Board. He is employed in advanced engineering at John Deere's Intelligent Systems Group."
 
Wallace Thornhill: Reinterpreting the MAVEN Mission to Mars | EU2014
TEXT: "Published on Apr 19, 2014: Wal Thornhill looked critically at the assumptions behind the recent MAVEN Mars Probe (Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution Mission.) The probe, NASA says, seeks to measure the loss of volatiles from the Martian atmosphere in order to draw conclusions about the planet's remote past. He reminded us that all of the scientific objectives of the MAVEN Mission were developed under standard assumptions about a 4 billion-year old solar system. What's more, Wal showed how, under the inertia of belief systems, evidence can be distorted or ignored and contrasted this with the rapidly accumulating evidence for a highly catastrophic and recent history of Mars."
 
The Electric Universe - HD Documentary 2015
TEXT: "Published on Feb 13, 2015: "David expresses a belief that the electrical fields in space cannot account for all the plasma effects of the primer fields but offers no theory of what the driving force is. Basically David is using two bowl magnets to create a Z-pinch and induce the plasma formations seen. It requires that he input a massive amount of voltage to achieve these effects. So for him to say that electrical force are not the driving force is absurd. However or whatever his belief, Electrical currents in space are the driving factor and the only cause for non stationary magnetic fields. The movement of Ions and electrons flowing in opposite directions create the the magnetic fields we observe. Electrical activity in a vast cosmic circuit is the only viable explanation." -Star0bserver
 
Montgomery Childs: SAFIRE Project Update | EU2015
TEXT: "Published on Nov 1, 2015: Building on the past year of experimentation and analysis, the SAFIRE Project is moving into Phase 2, which takes the lessons from the Phase 1 Proof of Concept Prototype into a much larger chamber. Phase 1 ended on a cliff-hanger with indications of fusion and transient million-fold CME-like eruptions. Monty will present some aspects of the new chamber design, and also explain some of the equally challenging tasks of building SAFIRE Phase 2.

"Montgomery Childs is the author of three college engineering text books and holds eight international technical patents. He was lead design engineer of the Canadian National Research Council for Rocket Design to measure for oxygen in the upper atmosphere. He is now the Lead Scientist and Program Manager for the SAFIRE Project."
 
This may appear to be a repeat, but as always, even if it is, it is worthwhile to see in the feed again. :) However, the video is actually a set-up for the rebuttal. Same links follow.

Michael Shermer Meets the Electric Universe

TEXT: "Published on Nov 4, 2015: Earlier this year we extended an invitation to “skeptic” Michael Shermer, a Scientific American columnist, to speak at our EU2015 conference held in Phoenix Arizona June 25-29. We did so in confidence that Shermer would provide Scientific American with a retrospective on the EU gathering. He endorsed the idea in advance of the event, and as promised his review appeared in the October issue, a review that is also available on his website.

"No one doubted that the review would be dismissive of the Electric Universe. And now, members of the EU community have asked that we respond to Shermer’s public challenge. We believe that a public conversation is needed, addressing the costs to science of ignoring the role of the electric force in space. As many newcomers are becoming active in discussions, it's surely in everyone’s best interest to facilitate, on our own turf, an intelligent conversation about the state of the theoretical sciences and the future of the EU.

"Items of interest relating to Shermer's EU2015 participation:

"Panel: When Radical Ideas Challenge Conventional Science | EU2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4r4n...

"Shermer's Scientific American article, "The Electric Universe Acid Test":
http://www.michaelshermer.com/2015/10...

"Professor Donald Scott's answer to Shermer:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2015...

"Mathematician Stephen Crothers EU2015 talk, "General Relativity -- A Case in Numerology", disparaged by Shermer in his Scientific American article for having challenged Time Magazine's "Person of the Century" (Einstein):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBorB...

"Stephen Crothers response to Shermer: http://www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources...
 
Now for something completely different. :) The current initiators of the Electric Universe Theory gathered inspiration from the cosmological ideas of Immauel Velikovsky many decades ago. The ideas of Velikovsky - while the inspiration for thinking in a radical new way about the universe - have been refined and undergone a transformation over the years by Dave Talbott. These videos explore those ideas, and for those familiar with Velikovsky's underlying premises, following Talbott's shifting of the ideas is interesting.

I offer the continuing video series on these ideas for those who find them fun to contemplate. I have posted the earlier videos back on the thread. As Talbott states: "As this series continues, it will become increasingly important to start with the Preface and work forward sequentially. These were not intended to be stand-alone videos."

Talbott's words being the desire, here is the link to all the videos up to this point: Discourses on an Alien Sky - YouTube

Plus here is the Preface for those who would like to view it as refresher. I love this stuff! :) It's so unique - and fun to consider.

Discourses on an Alien Sky #1 | When Planets Were the Gods
TEXT: "
Published on Jan 24, 2015: With this introduction, David Talbott begins a series of video presentations exploring the profound celestial events that shaped early cultures the world over. It’s a vast subject with radical implications—a new perspective on planetary history and the human past."

Discourses on an Alien Sky #2 | The Acid Tests of a Reconstruction
TEXT: "Published on Jan 31, 2015: In this second episode of the Discourses, Dave Talbott offers a few glimpses of the mythic subject matter and the reasoning protocol for drawing reliable conclusions from ancient witnesses."

Discourses on an Alien Sky #3 | Cosmic Catastrophe & Cultural Obsession
TEXT: "Published on Feb 15, 2015: In this third of the Discourses series, Dave Talbott offers a few glimpses of the mythic subject matter and the reasoning protocol for drawing reliable conclusions from ancient witnesses."


Then we skip to Segment #18 -

Discourses on an Alien Sky #18 | The Myth of the Heavenly Twins

TEXT: "Published on Sep 26, 2015: The subject of this video series by Dave Talbott is the ancient experience of towering celestial forms that are no longer present. From a single snapshot of the configuration, we can work backwards to the first appearance of these bodies out of an undifferentiated cloud or sea of dusty plasma. We can then follow the configuration’s evolution through phases that range from quasi-stability to earth shaking catastrophe. As this series continues, it will become increasingly important to start with the Preface and work forward sequentially. These were not intended to be stand-alone videos."
 
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It's not a question of whether there are Black Holes (separate issue) but whether Einstein predicted Black Holes.

Einstein said There Are No Black Holes
TEXT: "Published on Jan 31, 2014: This video explains how Einstein proved in 1939 that his general relativity theory proved black holes do NOT exist. The myth that relativity predicted black holes arose in the 1960's after Einstein's death.
References:
1. Annals of Mathematics V. 40, no. 4, p. 922, October, 1939
ON A STATIONARY SYSTEM WITH SPHERICAL SYMMETRY CONSISTING OF MANY GRAVITATING MASSES
Albert Einstein
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1...

2. Physical Review Letters, v. 56, no.5, p.455, September, 1939,
ON CONTINUED GRAVITATIONAL CONTRACTION
J. R. Oppneheimer and H. Snyder
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v56/...

3. University of Chicago Press, 1965
GRAVITATION THEORY AND GRAVITATIONAL COLLAPSE,
B.K. Harrison, K.S. Thorne, M. Wakano and J.A. Wheeler
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1965gtg...

4. Theoretical and Mathematical Physics 174(2) 253 262 (2013)
IMPOSSIBILITY OF GRAVITATIONAL COLLAPSE
A.A. Logunov and M.A. Mestvirishvili
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1...

5. Vintage Book 1992
THE BIG BANG NEVER HAPPENED
Eric J. Lerner
lpphysics.com
 
How long this debate has been going on! I love the rough-and-tumble of 'rebel' scientific thinking. Great fun! From a 1999 review:
"[Lerner] successfully makes the point that the role of plasma physics in the formation of galaxies is deserving of further consideration. His objections to the Big Bang are neither new nor shocking [...] they comprise the same problems that cosmologists have been working indefatigably to explain since the Big Bang theory gained mass acceptance. His heresy is simply in seeking outside the parameters of the Big Bang for a solution. [...] [Lerner] based his book on the work of Hannes Alfven, who won the Nobel prize in 1970 for his work in plasma physics and is considered the father of that discipline. (Alfven took another heretical position when he claimed that electrical currents could pass through space. Both his idea and the proofs he offered were met with howling derision, but oddly enough he turned out to be right!) Plasma cosmology may someday be proven to be dead wrong. Until then, it's an elegant, exciting theory that deserves open-minded discussion rather than the largely subliterate polemics--pro and con."

The Big Bang Never Happened: A Startling Refutation of the Dominant Theory of the Origin of the Universe

by Eric Lerner October 27, 1992
LINK: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067974049X/?tag=rockoids-20
TEXT: "A mesmerizing challenge to orthodox cosmology with powerful implications not only for cosmology itself but also for our notions of time, God, and human nature -- with a new Preface addressing the latest developments in the field. Far-ranging and provocative, The Big Bang Never Happened is more than a critique of one of the primary theories of astronomy -- that the universe appeared out of nothingness in a single cataclysmic explosion ten to twenty billion years ago. Drawing on new discoveries in particle physics and thermodynamics as well as on readings in history and philosophy, Eric J. Lerner confronts the values behind the Big Bang theory: the belief that mathematical formulae are superior to empirical observation; that the universe is finite and decaying; and that it could only come into being through some outside force. With inspiring boldness and scientific rigor, he offers a brilliantly orchestrated argument that generates explosive intellectual debate."
 
This really is fascinating. You have to be following the thread of the conversation but this should be self-explanatory - and it's pretty interesting, given that these same 'eyes' are seen as Aliens and Ancient Astronauts with another current 'paradigm'.

While I think that round-up of ideas is interesting, I am someone who does not think Aliens have come here - rather we have had very advanced civilizations on earth prior to a humongous catastrophe that obliterated humankind to primitive rubble.

(Not that there isn't ego-endowed life (humanoid) on other planets - probably is - but it's unlikely they are whizzing through space in primitive physical spaceships. It's not likely they are interested in us at such a primitive level. IMO).

Anyway, look here - the electrical shapes are interesting. I have to admit, it's all fitting together like puzzle pieces.

Plasma mythology – owl eyes
LINK
: Plasma mythology – owl eyes, owl man - electromagnetic origin?
TEXT: September 11, 2015
Plasma mythology – owl eyes
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PrevNext




In mythology, folklore the owl and especially the owl eyes are important figures. Owl eyes are repeated images in ancient rock art and petroglyphs. The owl eyes also appear as variations of local animals.

Could owl eyes be part of our plasma mythology?

Could the owl eyes, owl eyes mask, tall strange owl man, be due to electromagnetic events and phenomena in our ancient skies?

Witnessed by nearly all the ancient civilsations on earth and recorded on rocks and caves around the world?

PLASMA MYTHOLOGY – OWL EYES IN ROCK ART AND PETROGLYPHS



PLASMA MYTHOLOGY – OWL EYES IN JUPITER’S MAGNETOSPHERE
Jupiter’s magnetosphere or any other planets when in active plasma glow mode? Especially Saturn as that is important to the Thunderbolts version of the Electric Universe theory (EU theory).








Were the planets magnetospheres also interpreted as the mighty thunderbolt of the gods or the lightning weapons they used, for example the Zeus thunderbolt or the Vajra?

PLASMA MYTHOLOGY – PLASMA INSTABILITIES, BIRKELAND CURRENTS
The image on the left below shows

This figure shows a time sequence of contours of magnetic energy in cross-section between two Birkeland filaments. The contours at the locations of the two filaments correspond to energy maxima while the central ellipse is an energy minimum. Credit: A. L. Peratt, Physics of the Plasma Universe, p. 114.
The ‘Spiral Galaxy’ at Saturn’s Pole | holoscience

The image on the right below are of plasma instability using Chandasekhar–Fermi equations are from Anthony Peratt’s amazing Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity. Could they be a possible explanation for the owl eyes or one of the events that inspired it?


PLASMA MYTHOLOGY – PLASMA INSTABILITIES – TOROIDS STACK
These images of plasma instability showing toroids stack changing over time are from Anthony Peratt’s amazing Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity. Could they have formed owl eyes, owl masks, owl men in our skies?

 
Petroglyphs – sun ‘shine’, flowers or plasma?
LINK
: Petroglyph flowers, 'sun' shine or plasma event?
TEXT: November 6, 2015
Petroglyphs – sun ‘shine’, flowers or plasma?
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Have petroglyphs that appear to show the sun shining, with the sunshine triangles on its outside and inner concentric circles, been observed by the SAFIRE Project that is investigating the theory of Electric Stars and an Electric Sun in an Electric Universe?






Is this the concentric circle plasma (up to 15 stratified atmospheres) that has been changed? The petroglyph rings mutating to a slightly different pattern?


We found that the plasma formed its own spherical atmospheres. Not only one but two then three and at times over 15 stratified atmospheres, all spinning around each other.

But the plasma is also extremely sensitive. Almost anything that has the ability to accept or admit and electric charge or a magnetic field can change its behaviour.
SAFIRE Project: Phase 1 -Proof of Concept

Or are they just images of the sun, with the archetype of the sun with triangles on its outside still existing today, or flowers?

it appears that Sutherland Wash Rock Art District was a ceremonial place with emphasis on the Uto-Aztecan Flower World. Flowers hold special meaning to speakers of Uto-Aztecan languages representing a spiritual landscape, a flowery, colorful, glittering paradise, that can be evoked through prayers, songs and other human actions.

The first is the Flower World complex which is evident not only in petroglyphs representing both realistic and abstract flowers but also in glyphs depicting important related imagery including birds and butterflies.
Hohokam Petroglyphs at Sutherland Wash: Flower World and Gender Imagery | Arizona Archaeological and Historical Society


PLASMA OR SUN GOD PETROGLYPHS?
There are a lot of possible interpretations of plasma events that have been mentioned and investigated by experts in plasma mythology and the Electric Universe theory, but just to show an example of the seemingly endless possibilities recorded by ancient cultures here a couple that may be related to the above. Or perhaps not?


Taino sun and other petroglyph images

Taino sun image


Mayan calendar
 
Since I really don't want to get into debunking every last piece of pseudoscience that makes up the EU, I'll just leave these here:

Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

Podcast Episode 115: The Electric Universe, Part 1, with Dr. Tom Bridgman | Exposing PseudoAstronomy

Podcast Episode 116: The Electric Universe, Part 2, with Dr. Tom Bridgman | Exposing PseudoAstronomy

Episode 120: James McCanney’s Views on Comets, Part 1 | Exposing PseudoAstronomy

Podcast Episode 121: James McCanney’s Views on Other Stuff in the Universe, Part 2 | Exposing PseudoAstronomy


Getting it from the horse's mouth, IE an actual astronomer with a PHD in his field, is much better than me trying to give a general idea of why EU ideas don't stand up to the test of science. Consider that they have something like 3 or more separate models of the sun, none of which allow them to make any useful predictions at all, and judge for yourself.

Now, from my own pov, to believe in the EU, it would seem that given its complete and utter lack of mainstream acceptance, one would have to believe in some giant, dumbass conspiracy among countless scientists from countless disciplines around the world, ala global warming denier claims.

I submit that it's ridiculous to believe that scientists are engaged in a conspiracy to hide the electrical nature of the universe, just like its ridiculous to believe scientists are manufacturing data about climate change, again, around the world and across disciplines.

There's a group out there called Vault Co. that uses the EU to further their climate change denier garbage, the more pseudoscience we promote, the more people taken in, and it sometimes leads to more serious pseudoscientific beliefs, like climate change denial and creationism, and we certainly don't need any more of that shit.
It's quite possible for there to be a dumbass community. What helps is an understanding of theories of knowledge and how knowledge is acquired and embraced by a community.
Thomas Kuhn , in his book " The Structure Of Scientific Revolutions " describes how paradigms come and go. Imre Lakatos and Paul Feyerabend make mincemeat of the idea that science is the unadulterated pursuit of the truth. Science is full of :tosh, lies and half truths. The good stuff has to be sought out and studied . Most scientist never read original research papers and recirculate stuff they are spoon fed .
So it goes.
 
Here he begins by tackling the 'doctrine' that matter is unconscious -

RUPERT SHELDRAKE: Science Set Free, Part 2 | EU2013
Text: "Published on Jan 22, 2013: Part 2 of a talk by Rupert Sheldrake at the conference ELECTRIC UNIVERSE 2013: The Tipping Point, in Albuquerque, New Mexico."

@Constance Constance, the above video is a treasure-trove of stuff (along a certain vein) on consciousness and mind - but in particular, at just before 15:00 he starts to talk about the sun - and consciousness - in a way that you might find interesting. :)

P.S. I bought the Kindle version of 'The Electric Sky'. I'll let you know what I find regarding the sun.
Can you please tell me what is wrong with this.

#65
petemcewan
Registered User

Joined: Feb 2014
Total Posts: 284

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelix
If Im right that is the theory that craters on asteroids are caused by electrical events and are because the asteroids are charged.

So where's the corresponding negative charge?

Why do we not see perturbations in the orbits of these asteroids as they go past oppositely charged ones?

Lets say a modest sized crater of 1km across. That's going to be about 200GJ
Now an asteroid has a self capacitance of perhaps 1nF

E=1/2 QV^2 of course, so we are talking about (2E)/Q=v^2

So v^2 is lets see, 4x10^11/1x10^-9 so 4x10^20.

so the voltage is 2x10^10

At 2AU that's 3x10^11m out, then the field strength, assuming its linear would be from the asteroid to the sun 0.1V/m

To the surface of the earth, it's 0.2V/m

this is just from one asteroid. So the question I have to ask is why is this not measurable? It's not measured, ergo the EU theory is complete crap.
 
It's not perfect for sure, but it's fun. Not being perfect does not mean it doesn't have interesting - and relevant - things to share. To each his own. :)
 
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