The Boy Who Lived Before - Documentary about a childs memories of another life

[Zephyr]

Sorry for my ignorance but, what is "SDA"? I'm guessing the "S" is for science?
I liked your train station analogy. I think my rustic mountain village along the winding path toward truth was perhaps a little romanticized.

Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA). Michael is my son.

Your village example is very good, especially for tribal-based social systems and old rural hamlets unaffected by urban sprawl. My other son lives in Germany in such a hamlet. It's like living in a postcard picture. It's kinda sweet seeing the parade of seasonal holidays being celebrated without the torment of neverending proselytization and doctrinal disputes.

 

[Randall]

Well means I cranked it out quickly -- its a guess at what anyone might mean when they use the terms ...

Exactly. Although sometimes a person can determine from context what a particular term might mean. It's not always that simple. We also might presume we know what we mean when we use such terms, when in reality we don't know exactly what we're talking about, let alone what someone else is supposed to think. So it should come as no surprise that people deny that the so-called "spiritual universe" exists when those who believe in it don't even know how ( or otherwise refuse ) to put the words "universe" and "spiritual" into some coherent context.

The long version of my view on what we mean by the word "universe" is here: http://www.ufopages.com/Content/Reference/Universe-01a.htm

The short version would goes something like this:

Universe: A realm in which a complete set of things exists.​

 

[Randall]

Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA). Michael is my son.

Your village example is very good, especially for tribal-based social systems and old rural hamlets unaffected by urban sprawl. My other son lives in Germany in such a hamlet. It's like living in a postcard picture. It's kinda sweet seeing the parade of seasonal holidays being celebrated without the torment of neverending proselytization and doctrinal disputes.

Thanks for clarifying. I went to the Wikipedia page and there were about 50 different things it could have been. So when you say you chose SDA, when was that, and have you since moved on out of that train station, or do you still take Saturdays off ?

 

[Zephyr]

Yes, moved on long ago. It was a nurturing community for children, almost magical in some ways. As a young mother, such a "village" was indispensable.

 

[Michael Allen]

Where did Ezekiel's visions originate?

That's a huge topic--and requires throwing a switch in my brain that is too late to be thrown (its late). I presume you are presenting it as a case of "instantaneous" programming? Vallee has speculated that some of the anomalous encounters were caused by some kind of holographic technicolor presentation to effect some change in the witnesses and the experiencers. I think its funny when such explanations seem prosaic compared to the "beings/events from other dimensions" hypothesis all of which of course is trumped by the even more prosaic ETH.

 

[Michael Allen]

When I examine narratives unspooling from the soil of human thought, I look to see where such ideas tend as they track knowledge like a plant reaching for the sunlight.

Religious dogmas project rigidly to one destination. Any deviation from the narrow path negates the whole narrative leaving the traveler without form, a ghost.

All zombies go to paradise. But they serve as useful soldiers on this plane for political despots claiming to be the voices of popular deities.

And I thought I spoke in riddles

Now how am I supposed to parse and interpret the "zombies in paradise" bit? I happen to think (if I could formulate a belief in zombies on the spot as I am now) that zombies are already in paradise even as they devour the brains of others (figuratively speaking). And then of course there's the thing without form: a ghost. Both ghosts and zombies have an interesting characteristic of being dead and alive at the same time--well that just blows the fuses on binary based human brain derived logic now doesn't it? Zombies are more interesting because for all intents and purposes, they are automata void of any reference to the world aside from infinite consumption. Perhaps that's what we might look to other alien races (if they exist). Why that may even provide us a motive for their "toying with us" as Vallee and other's have so often indicated (again, purely hypothetical).

Strange that you speak of the "voices" of deities--when the irony is that the most demented versions of those in question are often found repeatedly bowing and reading from a text as if they are a demented parrot. Political despots notwithstanding, thoughts are easily extinguished by a mere quote from the good word--a zombie of course being that automaton that has taken in the exotic words as if they are divine commandments and have extinguished reason altogether. The horrors of Syria should be an epic reminder of just where things go when certain people have either given their minds over to hedonism, excessive wealth and power, or religion.

But ages have past and still we don't learn...429 children die writhing on the ground like ants under a lethal pesticide as their parents scream themselves hoarse and die with them. We have learned nothing. Why do I say this? Because we continue to create the very infrastructure that could lead to our own extinction overnight.

I happen to think that sending the entire contents of a previous life into a child is one way to undo that programming--too bad we aren't all afflicted with the memories of even more than that. Perhaps everyone should just be afflicted by 1,000 years of memories from earlier lifetimes ...perhaps its already happening now.

And of course by now people are already taking exception to my one (among many) examples that perhaps throw a bit too much reality into their worlds for them to bear.

 

[mike]

My problem with reincarnation and soul survival aka going to heaven is apart from the obvious lack of transport mechanism (by what means is the data uploaded and deposited in the new location) Is the sentiment that "i cant be killed, only my address will change" that comes with it.

I cant help thinking that if acceptance of the possible reality that you only get one life, and then thats it ,might make people treat that life with a bit more respect.

I had a christian tell me recently " i cant be killed, only my address will change" for islam the concept is martyrdom, you lose this life but gain a better one.

If the truth is oblivion awaits, we may all take better care of both our own and others precious existance

 

[Randall]

My problem with reincarnation and soul survival aka going to heaven is apart from the obvious lack of transport mechanism (by what means is the data uploaded and deposited in the new location) Is the sentiment that "i cant be killed, only my address will change" that comes with it. I cant help thinking that if acceptance of the possible reality that you only get one life, and then thats it ,might make people treat that life with a bit more respect. I had a christian tell me recently " i cant be killed, only my address will change" for islam the concept is martyrdom, you lose this life but gain a better one. If the truth is oblivion awaits, we may all take better care of both our own and others precious existance

The whole concept of , " "i cant be killed, only my address will change" has some really serious logical problems involving the concept of what exactly we mean by the word "I". It speaks directly to the issue of what constitutes personhood, and that in turn raises all kinds of issues with personal identity. Ultimately, my analysis of it is that the whole concept falls apart like a house of cards. I've pretty much explained that already. Yet there also remains the remote possibility that some form of memory and processing ability exists on the level of universe generator that upon our death takes over for the functions previously handled by our brains, providing virtual bodies and sensory experiences equivalent to a continuity of consciousness. At this point we would no longer be the same as we once were, but neither would we be someone entirely new, or would we? There seems to be a paradox here based on how we define who and what we are.

 

[Zephyr]

And I thought I spoke in riddles

Now how am I supposed to parse and interpret the "zombies in paradise" bit? I happen to think (if I could formulate a belief in zombies on the spot as I am now) that zombies are already in paradise even as they devour the brains of others (figuratively speaking). And then of course there's the thing without form: a ghost. Both ghosts and zombies have an interesting characteristic of being dead and alive at the same time--well that just blows the fuses on binary based human brain derived logic now doesn't it? Zombies are more interesting because for all intents and purposes, they are automata void of any reference to the world aside from infinite consumption. Perhaps that's what we might look to other alien races (if they exist). Why that may even provide us a motive for their "toying with us" as Vallee and other's have so often indicated (again, purely hypothetical).

Strange that you speak of the "voices" of deities--when the irony is that the most demented versions of those in question are often found repeatedly bowing and reading from a text as if they are a demented parrot. Political despots notwithstanding, thoughts are easily extinguished by a mere quote from the good word--a zombie of course being that automaton that has taken in the exotic words as if they are divine commandments and have extinguished reason altogether. The horrors of Syria should be an epic reminder of just where things go when certain people have either given their minds over to hedonism, excessive wealth and power, or religion.

But ages have past and still we don't learn...429 children die writhing on the ground like ants under a lethal pesticide as their parents scream themselves hoarse and die with them. We have learned nothing. Why do I say this? Because we continue to create the very infrastructure that could lead to our own extinction overnight.

I happen to think that sending the entire contents of a previous life into a child is one way to undo that programming--too bad we aren't all afflicted with the memories of even more than that. Perhaps everyone should just be afflicted by 1,000 years of memories from earlier lifetimes ...perhaps its already happening now.

And of course by now people are already taking exception to my one (among many) examples that perhaps throw a bit too much reality into their worlds for them to bear.

Religious rites such as baptism and communion added to Saul's. -- I mean, Paul's extensive litany on dying to self -- "I am crucified with Christ, yet I live, but not I..." And so on. One's existence is both dead and alive -- zombie being as good a metaphor as any other.

And when one forsakes one's family and social moorings, it is like being a disembodied spirit, a ghost, since our "self" cannot develop or survive long outside the social "body," which gives it purpose/meaning. Again, the disciple was called to leave such things of the world behind to "exist" in the body of Christ, the exclusive vehicle to paradise.

All zombies go to heaven.

 

[Zephyr]

I've faced my own mortality and the prospect of complete dissolution of my ego or identity/self.

Frightening prospect until the realization sets in that our ego or self is dynamic and not static and is in a constant state of change, destruction, re-construction, with every heartbeat.

It breathes in a continual flow of information, much of which is discarded -- perhaps foolishly -- when such information cannot be reconciled with conventional wisdom/programming.

The surprise might not be that a little child is revealing such information but that more do not.

 

[Randall]

I've faced my own mortality and the prospect of complete dissolution of my ego or identity/self. Frightening prospect until the realization sets in that our ego or self is dynamic and not static and is in a constant state of change, destruction, re-construction, with every heartbeat. It breathes in a continual flow of information, much of which is discarded -- perhaps foolishly -- when such information cannot be reconciled with conventional wisdom/programming. The surprise might not be that a little child is revealing such information but that more do not.

You may have a point there. I believe children experience out of the ordinary and potentially very meaningful things that are offhandedly dismissed. BTW, It's cool to see you and Michael exchanging ideas here too. My parent/child relationships haven't worked out so well. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[Polterwurst]

The surprise might not be that a little child is revealing such information but that more do not.

More do, but they don't get reported. I'm not only talking of the cases made public, like James Leininger or Jenny Cockell. I have had two little kids repeatedly making strange remarks when they could hardly speak, but everybody decided to just ignore them and I bet this happens more often than you'd think. Both stopped their strange behavior after only a few years and I think that's because of the reactions of their parents and relatives, so I guess there is even a kind of silencing going on. Only the nearest relatives got to hear the remarks, and if they had never heard of other cases like that, they just forgot about it.

These "everyday cases" are probably mostly much less obvious and baffling than Cameron's or the aforementioned, which is why they can be more easily ignored.

There's another case discussed in this documentary, btw. We're absolutely not talking of one anecdotal exception here.

As Dr. Jim Tucker says in the documentary, together with the more than 2000 cases investigated by Ian Stevenson, they now have around 3000 case studies, some of which are more conclusive than this case in that the child gives verifiable names and events or has a birthmark directly comparable to a wound received in the alleged former life. Others are more puzzling in that there is cases in which two kids seem to have "memories" of the same deceased person. Whatever is going on, it's probably not as simple as our concept of "past lives" or even the debunker's default explanation of "false memories" or "just the kid's imagination".

 

[Zephyr]

More do, but they don't get reported. I'm not only talking of the cases made public, like James Leininger or Jenny Cockell. I have had two little kids repeatedly making strange remarks when they could hardly speak, but everybody decided to just ignore them and I bet this happens more often than you'd think. Both stopped their strange behavior after only a few years and I think that's because of the reactions of their parents and relatives, so I guess there is even a kind of silencing going on. Only the nearest relatives got to hear the remarks, and if they had never heard of other cases like that, they just forgot about it.

These "everyday cases" are probably mostly much less obvious and baffling than Cameron's or the aforementioned, which is why they can be more easily ignored.

There's another case discussed in this documentary, btw. We're absolutely not talking of one anecdotal exception here.

As Dr. Jim Tucker says in the documentary, together with the more than 2000 cases investigated by Ian Stevenson, they now have around 3000 case studies, some of which are more conclusive than this case in that the child gives verifiable names and events or has a birthmark directly comparable to a wound received in the alleged former life. Others are more puzzling in that there is cases in which two kids seem to have "memories" of the same deceased person. Whatever is going on, it's probably not as simple as our concept of "past lives" or even the debunker's default explanation of "false memories" or "just the kid's imagination".

Exactly true.

And fascinating.

 

[Randall]

... Whatever is going on, it's probably not as simple as our concept of "past lives" or even the debunker's default explanation of "false memories" or "just the kid's imagination".

On the above, we once again find ourselves in agreement, but at the same time, that doesn't suddenly give us license to start invoking mystical New Age gibberish either, so where does that leave us? Seems to me we're left back at square one which is that we're dealing with an unexplained acquisition of information. I don't think the physical evidence so far is relevant. It's either coincidental or a normal physical product, the cause of which hasn't been identified, perhaps because of a lack of or withholding of information.

 

[Zephyr]

It is difficult to explore the outer bounds of current conventional wisdom without incurring resistance. Galileo and Copernicus no doubt would receive the same treatment in our own age from the same gallery of critics and pedagogues. Some things apparently do not change.

I think I may understand why secret societies emerged to conduct their queries and preserve their findings.

If seekers waited for the winds of public consensus to power their efforts, there would be no progress of which to speak.

The New Agers may seem to float away from reality like a fleet of hot air balloons with little control over where the winds take them, they might very well discover something important.

At least they don't stick their fingers in ears and fill the air with screeching opposition to drown out inquiry.




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[Randall]

It is difficult to explore the outer bounds of current conventional wisdom without incurring resistance. Galileo and Copernicus no doubt would receive the same treatment in our own age from the same gallery of critics and pedagogues.

They certainly did, and there is still religious resistance today to scientific progress.

Some things apparently do not change.

Sometimes that's a good thing. Other times that's not so good.

I think I may understand why secret societies emerged to conduct their queries and preserve their findings. If seekers waited for the winds of public consensus to power their efforts, there would be no progress of which to speak.

Secret societies are less like societies and more like subcultures, and usually not so secret. If they were really secret, there wouldn't be books about them. If they comprised an entire society here on Earth, it would be impossible to hide it from the rest of us.

The New Agers may seem to float away from reality like a fleet of hot air balloons with little control over where the winds take them, they might very well discover something important. At least they don't stick their fingers in ears and fill the air with screeching opposition to drown out inquiry.

And I really doubt that given the choice between a well equipped scientific lab or floating off with the New Agers, our friends Copernicus or Galileo would choose the latter.

 

[mike]

As is often the case, the comments at the end of this article are just as deep as the article itself.

Well worth a read imo

The Measurement That Would Reveal The Universe As A Computer Simulation | MIT Technology Review

 

[Tyger]

I am finding the term "New Agers" curious. Does anyone know what this phrase means on this site in this context? It seems to mean something more than I am aware it does.

I recall the rock-opera "Hair" in the late 1960's singing about the New Age of Aquarius. Subsequent to that, the term New Age tended to refer to anything hippie-ish, 'Love Generation', LSD drug trips, suffused with Eastern religious motifs and meditation - a very large catch-all of cultural 'this-and-that', but nothing coherent and 'one'.

I recall New Age referencing anything to do with a new direction into back-to-the-earth natural living, explorations into communal living, natural foods, natural clothing and so on. New Age was more a reference to a hodge-podge of many diverse and not always related bits to do with a cultural stream ridden on the wave of baby boomer music and liberal, anti-war politics. However, the way the phrase is being used here it sounds like it's become a 'Movement' with rules or something - I almost have the sense it's being considered like a religion - any clarification on this most appreciated.

 

[Tyger]

On the above, we once again find ourselves in agreement, but at the same time, that doesn't suddenly give us license to start invoking mystical New Age gibberish either, so where does that leave us? Seems to me we're left back at square one which is that we're dealing with an unexplained acquisition of information. I don't think the physical evidence so far is relevant. It's either coincidental or a normal physical product, the cause of which hasn't been identified, perhaps because of a lack of or withholding of information.

What is "mystical New Age gibberish"? Never heard of it - sounds seriously dismissive.

 

[Randall]

As is often the case, the comments at the end of this article are just as deep as the article itself. Well worth a read imo: The Measurement That Would Reveal The Universe As A Computer Simulation | MIT Technology Review

The more they play with quantum level experiments, the more circumstantial evidence they seem to discover. The problem for me is that assuming that this realm we live in is a sophisticated construct, it seems as we've evolved out of the same algorithms that gave rise to the rest of the content, and that we're irrelevant to whatever is responsible for it. It's a dispassionate system, allowing for all manner of wonderful and horrific things to take place. It hardly seems fair, and before we humans try replicating this endeavor, I think a much harder look at the consequences is in order. Just what kind of suffering will we be responsible for creating, first in the AI, never mind within an entire universe?