Surgeon of the Rusty Knife

[Aaron LeClair]

Being weary of a rusty knife definitely makes sense. I recommend being weary of credentialed western doctors too however. They screw people up as well. A lot of their cures have bad side effects if not create illness and kill. Not to mention malpractice. If I had a choice between going to the guy the show was about or kemo therapy by the best doctor on the planet, I'd go to the rusty knife guy.

 

[CapnG]

Seth, or others who came before him, never implied that all you need to do was to "wish yourself rich, pretty, intelligent, etc.", and all those things would come to pass, as if by magic. That, of course, would be nonsensical, and can easily be disproved.

Okay but...

A relevant point is that there are no infections, because the healing energy, or healing intelligences, provide their own form of "sterilisation" - as strange as that may sound.

... sounds like magic to me. Or at the very least, magical thinking (placebo). Isn't it more likely that those who suffered infections didn't report them or that the rate of infection was low due to sheer luck?

In fact, you realise that it is a question of intensity of thought - Seth speaks of the intensity of emotional charge behind a thought - that turns thoughts into reality.

You're still saying the same thing; wish for something hard enough and you'll get it. But apparently if you wish for "materialistic" things you get squat? What a crock! Who designed this universe?!

 

[Tom Levine]

...If I had a choice between going to the guy the show was about or kemo therapy by the best doctor on the planet, I'd go to the rusty knife guy.

Hmm. I'm not sure I buy that, A.L.

Why is it difficult for an "American" to accept the work of a man like Arigo? What makes Americans so different? .

Exactly, ...and, not exactly.

My point again, is that there are cultural differences between Americans and Brazilians, relative to the Arigo phenomenon, and I don't fully understand them. They are interesting, and they are worth exploring.

On the "What makes Americans so different" thing...Why should I "accept" the work of Arigo? When you say accept, do you mean "believe"? Why should I "believe" the work of Arigo? When you say "believe", do you mean faith? Why should I have faith in Arigo? Why must I? I can have doubts, can I not? Does that make me an arrogant American? I'm not. Perhaps I have more faith in my family doctor. Perhaps I have more faith in the science and data which he brings to the table. Perhaps I have more faith in taking his advice, and going through chemo, in an attempt to save a life. Perhaps that's what I choose to place my faith, my belief, my acceptance in. Why is that a problem for you? I think that is a more interesting question to ask. As I said before, I believe that at the end of the day, each of us have a right to choose how we deal with life and death our own way. There are no right and wrong answers.


I think Americans do tend to be pragmatic when dealing with medical issues. Let's explore what would happen if Arigo set up shop in New York City, with a rusty razor blade, and no medical license. What would happen? He'd be put in the clink faster than a duck on water, is what would happen. And, let's be honest: It sounds like that's exactly what happened in Brazil also, isn't it?

I mean I don't want to be a party pooper, but there is another side to this story: He was arrested and convicted. He did allege that Dr. Fritz was chanelled through him...And so have countless other spiritual healers since him. Sonnencheim himself concedes to Arigo's human side, even though he held back during the interview. Let's just take a step back here. Is there not, still, the possibility, that we're seeing nothing more than simply a faith-based healing phenomenon, even though mighty extreme? This could be a placebo effect, yes? Maybe it isn't, but let's not completely throw that possibility off the table.

Following that line of thinking, I have a problem with the 2 million people served, thing. That doesn't compute for me. And, I'm not catholic. I'm not a person of the same faith as most of Brazil. So, must I endure pain and suffering, because I don't buy the story, or the crucifix, or the prayers, prior to the rusty knife cutting into my exposed abdomen?

Sorry. I have questions about the validity of the Arigo story. I'm also open to the answers. But, I'm not going to blindly accept that Arigo is a spiritual healer, with a Dr. Fritz on the other side, plucking tumors out of eye-sockets. Dr. Fritz might have his believers on this forum, but once he sets up shop in New York City, I'm quite certain that the doubters will come out in full force, dressed in black and blue, wearing badges, and driving cars with sirens.

Which brings me back to my point: Apparently, Brazilians from that era, did overcome those doubts. I still find that fascinating, and hard to understand, and worthy of more questions and discussions about the cultural identifiers which contributed towards creating the atmosphere which would allow people to make those kinds of decisions. That's not a judgement call on my part. It's an inquiry. While I find the Arigo story fascinating, I find Brazil even more fascinating. I'm left with wondering about these people. And, by the way, it doesn't make me arrogant. It makes me want to go visit Brazil.

I know it is difficult for the western mind to grasp these concepts..

I don't think that's true at all.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Hmm. I'm not sure I buy that, A.L.

Think I'm lying? Unfortunately I can't prove it since I don't have cancer nor is this guy alive.

I've had many bad experiences with western medicine and have cured myself via alternate means. I've actually have had medicine make me worse numerous times. My grandmother died from the chemo not the cancer. Have you ever seen what hell people go through via Chemo? Chemo doesn't have a good track record with me, nor western medicine. This guy sounds like he does have a good track record. I'd give him a try since the alternative I do not see as better. I also prefer death over long suffering. I have a history of being suicidal after all.

How many people did this spiritual healer kill or make worse in the process of curing them? Now ask the same of western medicine. Which is worse?

 

[Tom Levine]

Think I'm lying?

Nope. I don't think you're lying.

 

[David Biedny]

Folks,

The work that Arigo did over the many years was a fact, it was very well documented and corroborated by extensive witness accounts, photographic and film evidence. I'm so happy that we found and were able to speak with David Sonnenschein, he has dealt with the phenomenon first-hand and has some truly interesting insights into the story of Arigo and Fritz.

While there are indeed religious overtones to the case - which I'm not thrilled about - the facts in the case remain: Arigo cured a very large number of people, a wide range of different folks with a diverse variety of religious beliefs and faiths. He didn't demand that patients be Catholic, or accept Jesus as their savior, though he did seem to have a problem with folks who showed up drunk or otherwise high. To think that the case is based on faith healing is just not accurate, and the nature of the many surgeries suggests that this was a hell of a lot more than just smoke and mirrors. This case will not be clumped into the self-help, voodoo or belief boxes, it defies description.

While I understand the idea of an American cultural bias that makes this story especially difficult, the fact is that it happened, and indeed, from all accounts, it was nothing short of miraculous. We do NOT understand the mechanisms behind what went down, all we have are the results. The issue of infections was of particular interest to the doctors who looked into the case, and while they could not explain what they were seeing, they did indeed confirm the results. Here again, we find that in truly compelling paranormal cases, the reality exists outside of anyone's expectations or ability to accept the facts. Whether you believe it or not, it happened. What can we learn from it? What does it tell us about the true nature and mechanics of the Universe?

As to the preference for established medical treatment, in many of the cases, the sick had been given the terminal status by the medical community, and Arigo was the last chance for life. As time went by, and word spread of the amazing things he was doing, this dynamic changed and he would be visited by both wealthy and poor, and it's not like Arigo took this into account in his work. At one point, a thousand Argentinians were coming a month, just to see Arigo. It got a little crazy, but this momentum went on for a couple of decades. The whole background of his arrest and problems with the legal side of the coin are in no way indicative of the validity of his abilities - the medical community feared him, as did the religious community, and they conspired to make his life difficult. What we don't understand, we fear, and what we can't control, we try to destroy. Again, nothing to be proud of.

In my own experiences, when a family member or loved one is dying, the natural tendency is to want to find a cure, no matter what the source, and if someone like Arigo existed, I wouldn't hesitate to turn to them for help. The current state of the medical "industry" in the U.S. is something no one should be so proud of - the insurance industry has done some serious damage there, and the fact is that many people die each year from the negative aspects of western medicine. Walter Reed was once one of the most respected and highly-capable hospitals in the world - a glance at the current situation there is hardly encouraging.

I strongly suggest getting ahold of a copy of the John. G. Fuller book on Arigo, "Surgeon of the Rusty Knife". I've tracked down reasonably-priced copies on abebooks.com.

dB

 

[musictomyears]

Isn't it more likely that those who suffered infections didn't report them or that the rate of infection was low due to sheer luck?

You're still saying the same thing; wish for something hard enough and you'll get it. But apparently if you wish for "materialistic" things you get squat? What a crock! Who designed this universe?!

Did you actually listen to the Paracast episode? There was not one reported case of infection after surgery . Not one. Pretty good for "sheer luck", aye?

I was also talking about "thoughts creating reality", not wishful thinking. Does it sound as if the two were the same? They are not.

Most people are not aware of their thought patterns. Consequently, they are not aware of the thoughts that shape their personal reality. Most people never realise how repetitive their thoughts are, or that they frequently generate unhealthy thoughts. Becoming aware of, and talking responsibility for, one's thoughts, is the first, yet most important step for attaining spiritual awareness.

Becoming aware of one's thought processes is a lifelong learning experience, and it never ends. There is no final stage of "enlightenment", but only a gradual expansion of consciousness. When I used the term "materialistic", I was referring to thoughts pertaining to the material world, as opposed to more philosophical, non-materialistic considerations. All thoughts that are repeatedly broadcast into the environment will eventually- on one level or another - contribute to shaping one's personal reality. I like to call this process "projections of inner expectations" - I think Seth used similar terminology.

It is futile trying to argue about this - we are talking about eternal principles. We can try to ignore those principles, we can pretend they don't exist - but that doesn't make them go away. I am sure you have heard of Karma? That's pretty much what I aim to describe. Karma means "action", although in the west we like to translate Karma as "cause and effect". Karma is the sum of our thoughts and actions - and thoughts are more relevant than actions.

Through exercises, such as meditation, can we learn to master our thoughts to a greater degree than would be possible otherwise. Everybody who spent time exercising their mind has found that thoughts indeed create reality. It is one of the great mysteries of the physical incarnation.

 

[musictomyears]

...
Why should I "accept" the work of Arigo? When you say accept, do you mean "believe"? Why should I "believe" the work of Arigo? When you say "believe", do you mean faith? Why should I have faith in Arigo?
...
Is there not, still, the possibility, that we're seeing nothing more than simply a faith-based healing phenomenon, even though mighty extreme? This could be a placebo effect, yes? Maybe it isn't, but let's not completely throw that possibility off the table.

Following that line of thinking, I have a problem with the 2 million people served, thing. That doesn't compute for me.
...

I did say "accept", because that's what I meant to say. Accept and believe are not the same thing.

For example, you could say that you accept the healings, but that you don't believe in the alleged causes - a spirit doctor, working from a spirit hospital. Do you believe, or shall I say, consider, that the afterlife is a reality? Can you accept that deceased human beings may, under certain circumstances, return to our world, and effect healings or other types of paranormal phenomena?

When tens of thousands of people (never mind the "millions", the exact figure is immaterial to this debate) received lasting cures, was it all down to some gigantic placebo effect? If you are right, I think we should let the medical doctors know about it, because they can then stop applying their complicated, costly, and sometimes dangerous treatments, but relax and wait until this wonderful placebo effect does its magic.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

... sounds like magic to me. Or at the very least, magical thinking (placebo). Isn't it more likely that those who suffered infections didn't report them or that the rate of infection was low due to sheer luck?

This is a magical universe. Ever hear of the big bang? What's more magical than that?

 

[musictomyears]

...
While there are indeed religious overtones to the case - which I'm not thrilled about - the facts in the case remain: Arigo cured a very large number of people, a wide range of different folks with a diverse variety of religious beliefs and faiths. He didn't demand that patients be Catholic, or accept Jesus as their savior, though he did seem to have a problem with folks who showed up drunk or otherwise high. To think that the case is based on faith healing is just not accurate, and the nature of the many surgeries suggests that this was a hell of a lot more than just smoke and mirrors. This case will not be clumped into the self-help, voodoo or belief boxes, it defies description.

To Gene and David, this was an amazing interview - first rate. I rarely have heard some of the most relevant aspects of spiritual healing covered in such a short period of time. In particular, I liked the fact that there was no hint of cynicism anywhere during the course of the interview. I am glad that you seem to sense when a phenomenon is real, and when we can do little more but accept.

About the aspect of faith in healing: I mentioned that I worked as a full-time healer, mostly in London. During that time, I must have met with hundreds of healers, some of whom were very religious. When I started to experiment with healing energies myself, I went through a phase of religiously slanted, mystical thinking - I think I was overwhelmed by the enormity and awe-inspiring profundity of it all. When you are confronted with powers that appear to reach out to you, from way beyond the physical realm, you seek an explanation for what is happening to you. You *need* an explanation, for otherwise you go insane.

Everybody, eventually, finds and accepts explanations they are comfortable with. A Buddhist will place paranormal phenomena into the context of Buddhism, and be content with it. A Christian will discover Jesus at the source of all that is good and desirable, and an atheist will find materialistic concepts that make sense to him. Each to their own.

The same goes for the patients. In the west, many get very worried, when they can't see images of Jesus displayed on the clinic walls. They might think that you are not evoking God's healing angels, for example, but rather some lowly entities, that are up to no good. Some might even claim that you heal, using the powers of the devil himself. Don't laugh, on a couple of occasions, I have been accused of doing just that.

So, the "religious overtones", as I see it, are psychological aids that help with creating culturally acceptable frameworks for paranormal interactions between us and the ethereal worlds. Also - and this should not be underestimated - invoking religious symbolism produces very real effects, if done with the right kind of intent. Religious ritual has come about, and was established over centuries, for very practical reasons. Whenever we look at beautiful images of saints, flowers, gardens, angels; Whenever we smell incense and listen to spiritual chants, do we quite naturally "raise our own vibrations", as it were, and become attuned to higher, spiritual realms. There is not one healer I can think of who would not utilise at least some of those tools for creating an atmosphere that is conducive to his work.

With regard to the multiple "Dr Fritzes", I agree with the scepticism about the concept of Dr Fritz moving from one medium/healer to another. That would be unprecedented, and totally contrary to the experience of many generations of mediums, not only in Latin America, but the world over. It is generally understood that spirit guides are closely related to the medium they work with, in a spiritual sense. Medium and guides belong to the same spiritual family, which allows them to interact easily. Quoting Seth again, he would say that the personalities of medium and spirit guide are multi-dimensionally interwoven. In this sense, the spirit entity is another aspect of personality of the medium, yet, simultaneously, separate and quite independent from it. (Silver Birch, in his teachings, liked to compare the Soul to a diamond, with the diamond representing the Soul, and the facets representing the individual incarnations.)

Spirits, and spirit guides, can give themselves any name or identity they want. When it comes to healing - as has been suggested on the show - a spirit guide may choose a name that rings familiar with the medium or patient, in order to establish a trusting relationship. Ultimately, however, names are irrelevant. What counts are the results.

 

[dorkbot]

It was mentioned in the interview that there were some videos of Arigo on Google video at one point. Anybody know of any videos elsewhere on the net?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I tried finding vids of him, but wasn't successful. So my efforts isn't a complete waste, I thought I would post some articles on him that I found along the way. Although I haven't read everything at the links, the first one looks like a good resource with a variety of articles.

Culture and Personality (Psychological Anthropology) -- University of Minnesota Duluth

www.OfSpiritandSoul.com

http://lindahinks.com/arrest.shtml
Ouch. Guy gets his testicle jabbed but seems to feel no pain. I'm impressed. Mine hurt just from thinking of it. Owe....


Jose Arigo - Alleged Psychic Surgeon and Healer
This guy looks like he isn't thrilled with what's going on. Hard to say for sure though.

http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychic_surgery




This thread came up in a search

 

[Tom Levine]

I think there's a couple people on this thread for whom I owe an apology.

This interview, and subject, sparks something for me that I feel very strongly about. I think because of the spirit of this forum, that translated through. Our discussions can tend to become quite heated because of the differing world-views and positions that we all possess. For me, that is the reason why I keep coming back over and over again.

Usually, I'm level headed, balanced, open to other points of view, and tactful. Sometimes, I can get carried away. I wish I was Spock, but I'm not. Unfortunately, I'm only human., Sometimes I'm childish, and have outbursts. It can happen during discussions, both in the real world and here in the 'sphere', when I enter into a conversation about something that strikes a deep emotional chord with me. At that point, I can be a bit of a brat. I think that happened here.

So, I must apologize to those of you who I may have offended or angered. My purpose in this forum is not to win. And I certainly do not wish to alienate or irritate those people here, who I now consider to be close allies. Please accept my most sincerest apologies, and please forgive my 'spirited' chutzpah.

I think on the subject of Arigo, I'm going to let this one go. Clearly, there are elements of this story that stir up deep conflicts for myself, so it's probably best for me to step back on this topic.

I think David, you hit the nail for me. Frankly, I don't have all the information. I have doubts and I am skeptical, but I haven't read the book, watched the videos, read the testimony, and/or reviewed the data on this subject. All I have to go on is the Paracast interview. I hope everyone respects my initial doubts, as much as I respect your wise opinions on the validity of the subject. Personally, I'm never afraid to change my mind or my conclusions, so some day, I'm completely open to seeing this subject your way.

One final thing: Musictomyears, I really appreciate your kind comments early on in this thread. Thank you for that most sincerely. Most Sincerely, Tom

 

[musictomyears]

That's cool, Tom. No offence taken here.

 

[Rocketsauce]

I just did a quick IMDB check on the listed Arigo movie. It says it's coming out in 2009 and it looks like they added a plot description to the movie listing which I think is new. It's possible this is not an update and I'm reading old info from a project that never got off the ground, but I'd like to try and get the scoop on this movie.

Does anyone by any random chance know Alan Arkin or someone that knows him to get the scoop on this movie? David any old hollywood buddies?

I think this movie, if done right, could really blow a lot of people's minds and be phenomena. How could it not?

On a side note, I bought a copy of the Fuller book for my incredibly skeptical sister in law who is an oncologist at a major university and for once, she didn't know what to think, couldn't just dubunk it!

I think Arigo, assuming the book is accurate, is on par with a modern day prophet and the story answers the question IMO, what would happen if Jesus was alive today..... answer:. the most religious fundamentalists would probably have him put in jail for blasphomy and the medical community would put him in jail for malpractice.

 

[Rocketsauce]

I found this a while back and wanted to post it. It is a letter that John Fuller wrote in response to a book critic. Very interesting!!

Trick or Treatment - The New York Review of Books

 

[Rocketsauce]

There are a bunch of clips from what appear to be a Brazilian documentary, but it's in Portuguese!

They do show some clips of Arigo though including some vids

- YouTube

 

[methshin]

It's definitely a topic I've wanted discussed in great detail. The snippets David lets out every once in a while when referencing this story are far too intriguing to deny.