Surgeon of the Rusty Knife

[pixelsmith]

this should be good. the problem is that no one can prove he was a fake.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

This the chicken bone guy? Proof is in the eye of the beholder. Some think the Meier case is legit, while many think it's a proven hoax as an example. If this is the chicken bone guy, I am thinking it was pretty well established he faked at least some things. I need to look back into it however since the details are sketchy in my memory. Maybe this recent show will bring forth some compelling evidence that I wasn't aware of years ago when I first learned of the case.

 

[pixelsmith]

yes chicken bones and livers. but no one was ever able to proof him a fake.

 

[David Biedny]

Here's the short version:

In my opinion, Ze Arigo was one of the most compelling paranormal cases of the 20th century, extremely well documented and in South America, very well known. No chicken bones, no livers, but a whole lot of rather extreme manifestations that defy conventional explanation. There were some film clips of Arigo doing surgeries on Youtube, but they've been yanked (and I didn't download them, so hit me now). To watch him jam a knife into a fellow's eye, and the edge of the blade is clearly visible poking up against the eyelid, Arigo slamming away rather violently while the patient stands perfectly still, is nothing short of unnerving.

In the episode, there are some details about my own experiences watching my father interviewing a few Venezuelans who were cured by Arigo - these interviews happened just a few years after he died in 1971. There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that he was the real deal, and the short comment by Randi on his site is simply ridiculous. And just for the record: I think that the vast majority of so-called psychic cases are indeed bogus, but Arigo most definitely does NOT fall into that category,

I would highly recommend the excellent book from John G. Fuller, "Arigo: Surgeon of the Rusty Knife", but it's out of print and not inexpensive. I've spoken with Fuller's widow, and she has confirmed that her husband felt that this was one of the most credible paranormal cases ever. I would have to agree. I know this all sounds like I'm prejudiced in favor of Arigo, which is indeed true. I've been interested in the case ever since 1974, when my father did his research. More on that during the episode.

I'm very excited by the fact that we'll be talking with David Sonnenschein, as he spent years in Brazil and has had extensive interactions with Arigo's family. I think it's one of our best shows ever.

dB

 

[musictomyears]

I'd have to agree with David, reading through the very large number of testimonies about Arigo gives me a sense of his achievements. One can't fake hundreds, or rather thousands, of cures, in particular when they require physical interventions.

I am reminded of yet another great healer, Harry Edwards. I met former patients of his, and one lady spoke in awe and with gratitude about the healing she received from a serious hip condition. All she had done was send Harry Edwards a letter with a distant healing request.

 

[David Biedny]

Well, when you consider that the actual number is somewhere between one and two million people, that's a serious situation.

It's really unique. I don't claim to understand how this was possible, but it all happened.

dB

 

[Aaron LeClair]

It's possible that what informed me on the case was biased. I see this happen in regards to other paranormal events.

This guy did surgeries with his bare hands right? If not, not the same person. Magicians showed how this could be done. I don't recall hearing or reading anything about 2 million people being healed by him, or even that Fuller was involved. Nor that a knife was used, it was his barehands. I may have been ill informed. I'll listen to the show without bias and hear from a supporter. I didn't think there were many, if this is the same case that is.

 

[David Biedny]

It's possible that what informed me on the case was biased. I see this happen in regards to other paranormal events.

This guy did surgeries with his bare hands right? If not, not the same person. Magicians showed how this could be done. I don't recall hearing or reading anything about 2 million people being healed by him, or even that Fuller was involved. Nor that a knife was used, it was his barehands. I may have been ill informed. I'll listen to the show without bias and hear from a supporter. I didn't think there were many, if this is the same case that is.

No, that must be someone else. Arigo used knifes, whatever was laying around, hence the title of the Fuller book. Dirty knives, yet no one EVER suffered from infections of any sort. Amazing stuff. The Fuller book is quite something, I highly recommend it.

dB

 

[Aaron LeClair]

No, that must be someone else. Arigo used knifes, whatever was laying around, hence the title of the Fuller book. Dirty knives, yet no one EVER suffered from infections of any sort. Amazing stuff. The Fuller book is quite something, I highly recommend it.

dB

Ok. I'm not familiar with him then. Interesting I haven't came across him that I can remember. Under reported maybe.

The guy I was thinking of hid chicken bones and guts in his hand and then would allegedly do surgeries on them. At least that was the argument against him. Many people got better though this is likely due to the placebo effect.

 

[pixelsmith]

my comment didnt come out right. i meant "chicken bones and livers" in the context of very unusual surgery. this guy did millions of very convincing surgeries. how does anyone do that many without a fatality or serious problem? was he a modern day Jesus or Star Person?

 

[dorkbot]

I'm unfamiliar with the Arigo case but something I would like to hear discussed are the patient's perceptions during one of these psychic surgeries. I have read seemingly sincere accounts where the person being operated on believes they see their body opening up when the surgeon "penetrates" and then closing again when the surgeon withdraws. Their accounts are not of seeing some chicken blood suddenly appearing or anything like that. Even if you accept a placebo style faith healing explanation I think some accounts invite a closer examination of what may be happening psychologically on the patient's end.

 

[musictomyears]

In the 1960s to 80s, there were a number of truly astonishing healers on Earth. Arigo was one, I mentioned Harry Edwards, and there were also Nan Mackenzie and Tom Johanson (both UK), and others. I knew Tom Johanson and his wife reasonably well, having worked with them in the same building. To all intents and purposes, Johanson once spontaneously cured a deaf man, in front of an audience of about 100 people. I watched him do it. That was my introduction to genuine mediumship.

It is important to realise that, back then, money or fame did not come into it. Quite the opposite: Very different from nowadays, there was no New Age scene or attached industry (not to mention evangelist hysteria), that would provide income and support to healers or psychics. There simply was no money in it. Healing was given freely, but donations were usually accepted. It was a *totally* different world back then!

 

[Tom Levine]

I'm about half-way through David' and Gene's interview with Sonnenschein, and I'm completely tripped out by the whole thing.

I know these questions are a little more down to earth but, who, in their right mind, would allow someone with no medical background or experience, to cut an eye open, or extract a tumor, using nothing more than a razor blade, and with no anesthesia?

Am I the only one that's completely freaked out by the whole thing?

Why would people do this? I would never allow my daughter to receive such treatment. When my father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer, we sought the best doctors we could, we went to the Mayo clinic, we sought out cutting edge medical science and technology to try and deal with this disease. We failed, tragically, and so I could ask myself, if only I tried to find Arigo in Brazil, but honestly, no way. We wouldn't do it. I have to be honest with myself. If I had to do it over again, I'm certain I'd try to find answers in medical science, and not in a guy in a trance with a razor blade and no anesthesia.

Now, I'm not saying that he's not legitimate, or that this phenomenon isn't real. My questions have more to do with the patients, and the culture in Brazil at the time.

Who are these people? I'm wondering if the medical care and facilities in Brazil, during this era, might have been lacking? Or, perhaps there was a large differential between the upper class and the poor? In other words, did those living in poverty, have very little access to proper medical care and treatment? If so, would that explain why people would seek out psychic healers, and go through what they went through, to find a cure?

But, wasn't it mentioned in the interview, something about a rich Senator seeking out treatment as well? So, Arigo was treating Brazilians from all walks of life? From a cultural standpoint, is it much like Hati and Voodoo? Is it simply that spiritual healing is a more widely accepted belief in Brazilian culture? I'm just really struggling with this whole aspect of the phenomenon, the willingness of these people to subject themselves to such an intense, life-altering medical experiment essentially.

And the whole "faith" discussion point also raised questions for me. I know Sonnenschein indicated it wasn't necessary, but that if you didn't trust your faith in God, there was the possibility that pain would be experienced...And the references to Catholicism, and crucifixes, and prayer. It made me wonder if much of this could be attributed, at least in part, to a faith-based healing phenomenon?

And, I'm still baffled by the claim that he healed 2 million people, and the discussion that he didn't actually perform surgery on all of them, but if you do the math, that means he treated 1000 people a week, or something to that effect. I'm having a hard time with that one.

As a small digression, do you guys remember Seth from the 70's? Seth was a channelled spirit through, oh I can't remember her name. I read the book like a billion times though. I found it riveting. Later on, sometime in the 80s, I think she was discredited, or they discovered discrepancies in Seth's testimony. Say, that's got me thinking. It might be interesting for someone to revisit the Seth story, some 30 to 40 years later. I wonder how many of Seth's predictions have come to fruition, or have not come to fruition.

Bottom line, I'm only halfway through the interview. As usual, it's absolutely riveting, and I couldn't help but to come online and post a thought or two. I don't know what to make of Arigo, other than to say, "What the heck is going on here?!", and to fish for explanations. But, that just makes me want to watch Sonnenscheins' flick all the more.

t

 

[musictomyears]

Tom, you say that your father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer, and that you sought conventional treatment for him, but it failed (I am sorry to hear that). Then you say that you would never consider alternative healing, even though it might have helped him.

That's a pretty bizarre point of view, if you don't mind me saying. I have come across it before - many times in fact. It is one of the most irrational human reactions I can think of, yet it is common.

Let's get this straight: People would rather suffer, if not die a horrific death, rather than consider a form of treatment that has proven successful millions of times, the world over, and often can be received freely. No conversion to a particular religion or faith is required, only a reasonably open mind and a will to get better.

Tom, let me explain why I find this reaction upsetting, even though I am not upset with you personally. You react in a way many people do. This is a case of fear over confidence, pessimism over optimism.

In 1990, I gave up a lucrative career as a free-lance musician, in order to become a full-time healer. I ended up, working extensively as a healer and member of the UK spiritualist movement. I used to know many of the prominent healers and mediums of the time personally.

To cut a long story short, I found that the biggest role in successful healing is played by the patient himself. Not all conditions can be cured, not all people can be helped. But, everybody who is determined to get better, even if only in a small way, will get better. Everybody who continues with seeking help, and who takes active steps to aid with his recovery, benefits to some degree. Total and spontaneous cures are possible, but in most cases, a more gradual recovery is to be expected. Some extraordinarily gifted healers, like Arigo (or Harry Edwards, who never used knives or any other tools) produced very large numbers of instant, lasting cures. But healers who work to this level are extremely rare, and I cannot think of a contemporary example.

Coming back to patients who suffer from life-threatening conditions, I remember treating a man from Germany, who had come to London for a holiday. He was diagnosed with a brain tumour, and the prognosis was very bad. He received treatment from me at no cost, which is the way I work. I suggested to him that, while he was in London, he should visit as many reputable healers as possible, and receive treatment every other day. I wanted to provide him with the details of various clinics, that provide genuine healing services, free of charge. His response? "Oh no, I can't do that, I wont have the time, I promised my wife to be back in a couple of days".

Can you believe that?

That's the kind of stuff one has to put up with, as a healer - clients who wouldn't lift a finger to help themselves. To top it all, when a healing attempt fails after one session, either the healer takes the blame, or spiritual healing as a form of therapy.

There are many people who go around and say, "I don't believe in this sort of thing", then, for one reason or another, give it a half-hearted try, but finally walk away disappointed because "it did not work". They never seem to consider that they are part of the equation, and that they need to open their minds, souls and spirits in order to be reachable by powers from the beyond. Spirituality is not entertainment, it's not a circus, it can't be bought and sold like hamburgers.

Tom, I remember the Seth books by Jane Roberts well, and I am delighted to see them mentioned here. How interesting.
Seth kept reminding his audience that we - quite literally, and without any reservations - create our own reality. Thoughts manifest as physical reality, and nothing can stop it. However, we can learn to control and master our thoughts, and consequently create better realities for ourselves, and others. Once you realise that it is your own creations you are looking at - every moment of the day - do you hold the key for unlocking any self-imposed limitations. You cease feeling a victim - forever. It is one of the highest goals, IMO.

You will also understand why choosing Love is vital.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

As a small digression, do you guys remember Seth from the 70's? Seth was a channelled spirit through, oh I can't remember her name. I read the book like a billion times though. I found it riveting. Later on, sometime in the 80s, I think she was discredited, or they discovered discrepancies in Seth's testimony. Say, that's got me thinking. It might be interesting for someone to revisit the Seth story, some 30 to 40 years later. I wonder how many of Seth's predictions have come to fruition, or have not come to fruition.

Wow. Rare I see him mentioned. I'm like the biggest Seth nut on the planet. I have every book. It changed my life and how I perceive things dramatically. It's been awhile since I read anything by Jane/Seth though.

Jane Roberts died in 84. To the best of my knowledge she was never discredited and actually was/is considered one of the best channelers of all time. It's the only thing of that nature archived at Yale. At least last I checked. Seth is often credited for giving birth to the New Age. Fred Alan Wolf and Deepak Chopra endorse the work along with many others.

There are some things that seem like discrepancies. Many times semantical ones.

If interested in Seth, check out Abraham-Hicks which is actually better in many ways. It was the main influence behind the first edition of the Secret (I don't care for the released one) but was later edit out completely.

Having said all that. I'm really not into channeling per say. What's funny is, a lot of the Seth students aren't either. Sort of the channeler for those who are weary of channelers.

Only thing negative I've ever read about the case was a preacher saying Seth killed Jane through possession. Which is absurd. The Way Toward Health is her last book she actually did in the hospital. She died either during or shortly after the book. Seth was his same ol self with the exception of saying, "I may or may not return" when closing sessions. Did he know Jane's time was near? Or a "probable" version of Jane hehe?

 

[CapnG]

There are many people who go around and say, "I don't believe in this sort of thing", then, for one reason or another, give it a half-hearted try, but finally walk away disappointed because "it did not work". They never seem to consider that they are part of the equation, and that they need to open their minds, souls and spirits in order to be reachable by powers from the beyond.

Cause and effect. If I flip a lightswitch, the light comes on. I don't need to believe it will come on, it just does (unless the bulb's burned out or the fuse has blown). If I have a headache and take a tylenol, it goes away. Do I believe the tylenol will make it go away? Yes. Is that why it goes away? No. If spiritual healing worked, it would work all the time (or most of the time) whether or not it was believed in. Anything else falls neatly into the catagorey of placebo as far as I'm concened.

Thoughts manifest as physical reality, and nothing can stop it.

If that were true we'd all be rich, healthy, paired with our ideal mates, immortal and beloved by all because everybody wishes they were those things to greater or lesser degree all the time.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Cause and effect. If I flip a lightswitch, the light comes on. I don't need to believe it will come on, it just does (unless the bulb's burned out or the fuse has blown). If I have a headache and take a tylenol, it goes away. Do I believe the tylenol will make it go away? Yes. Is that why it goes away? No. If spiritual healing worked, it would work all the time (or most of the time) whether or not it was believed in. Anything else falls neatly into the catagorey of placebo as far as I'm concened.

There is the placebo effect. Belief can hinder or contribute to healing. It's part of the equation.

 

[Tom Levine]

That's a pretty bizarre point of view, if you don't mind me saying...

Nope. I don't mind you saying that at all. I appreciate your viewpoint, and I know this discussion is not personal either way.

Restating my point for a moment: Would I subject my daughter or family member to a guy in Brazil, with a rusty knife, slicing tumors out of bodies with no medical degree and no anesthesia?

You bet your you know what, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I'm just being honest. I think my point was emphasizing my observation, based on the Sonnenchein interview, that there seesm to be some distinct differences, between Brazilian culture and American culture.

Now, me? Well, I am an American. I do agree with David and Sonnenscheim's point. As an American, I confess that I do rely more on western medical practices, as opposed to spiritual ones. That's not a judgement call: It's just simply a fact.

With regard to alternative medicine, SURE! If you're talking about trying non-intrusive alternative forms of medicine, which cannot HARM you, unlike sticking a rusty knife or razor blade into someones body, but instead, trying something like the use of wheat-grass juice, or diet changes, or various alternative modalities, than yes, of course! Why not! In fact, we did try those things. But that's much different than a rusty knife, and a guy in a trance. Nope. No way. Forget it. I'm not saying he's not for real. I'm just saying that as an American, living in American culture, I think that's nuts, and I struggle to try and understand how why Brazilians back then, subjected themselves to this. Again, to emphasize my point: I'm really struggling with trying to understand the cultural differences, versus the paranormal phenomenon associated with Arigo.


When it comes to life or death, I'm taking my family to see the doctor. Now, I don't think that's an unusual or bizarre perspective at all. I think it's practical, pragmatic, and when faced with disaster, we all have to make our own decisions. We each have the right to respond to life and death as we see fit. Certainly, my perspective is a human one and certainly not "bizarre".

One other point: Yes, people recover. Sometimes they don't. But when someone doesn't recover, listen, it's not their fault. Sometimes, life is not fair. We all simply do the best we can. I know we'd like to think we have control over the world, but sometimes, we just don't. We try. In the end, that's enough. Even if we fail, it doesn't mean that we didn't give it everything we had, and I would say this is true, especially for people in chemo. I don't look at them and wonder "why didn't you do something different? Why didn't you try something more spiritual? Look at your bodies, look what you're doing to yourself?" No, sir. I don't say that all. I say the opposite. I celebrate their courage, their strength, and their determination to live. I think they are heros.

Wow. Rare I see him mentioned. I'm like the biggest Seth nut on the planet. I have every book. It changed my life and how I perceive things dramatically. It's been awhile since I read anything by Jane/Seth though.

Jane Roberts died in 84. To the best of my knowledge she was never discredited and actually was/is considered one of the best channelers of all time. It's the only thing of that nature archived at Yale. At least last I checked. Seth is often credited for giving birth to the New Age. Fred Alan Wolf and Deepak Chopra endorse the work along with many others.

There are some things that seem like discrepancies. Many times semantical ones.

If interested in Seth, check out Abraham-Hicks which is actually better in many ways. It was the main influence behind the first edition of the Secret (I don't care for the released one) but was later edit out completely.

Having said all that. I'm really not into channeling per say. What's funny is, a lot of the Seth students aren't either. Sort of the channeler for those who are weary of channelers.

Only thing negative I've ever read about the case was a preacher saying Seth killed Jane through possession. Which is absurd. The Way Toward Health is her last book she actually did in the hospital. She died either during or shortly after the book. Seth was his same ol self with the exception of saying, "I may or may not return" when closing sessions. Did he know Jane's time was near? Or a "probable" version of Jane hehe?

Yes, Exactly! Jane Roberts! Right, that was great stuff back then. I apologize if I stated something in error. I'm not up to speed on the subject now, but I remember how riviting those books were. Nice to know we have even more in common, Mr. LeClair.

 

[Tom Levine]

Cause and effect. If I flip a lightswitch, the light comes on. I don't need to believe it will come on, it just does (unless the bulb's burned out or the fuse has blown). If I have a headache and take a tylenol, it goes away. Do I believe the tylenol will make it go away? Yes. Is that why it goes away? No. If spiritual healing worked, it would work all the time (or most of the time) whether or not it was believed in. Anything else falls neatly into the catagorey of placebo as far as I'm concened.



If that were true we'd all be rich, healthy, paired with our ideal mates, immortal and beloved by all because everybody wishes they were those things to greater or lesser degree all the time.

Thank you. Point well made.

 

[musictomyears]

OK, I think we reached a point of common misunderstandings.

About the rusty knife: It was only a tool for directing spiritual energies, although Arigo may have simultaneously used it for executing physical cutting. Arigo was in no way the only healer to work in this fashion. In the Philippines there have been, and probably still are, many healers who also use un-sterilised knives. A relevant point is that there are no infections, because the healing energy, or healing intelligences, provide their own form of "sterilisation" - as strange as that may sound. Arigo never, ever, put his patients at risk, because of it. A little reading up on his work would quickly establish this fact. Instead of a rusty knife, Arigo probably could have used a screwdriver, or a nail.

Why is it difficult for an "American" to accept the work of a man like Arigo? What makes Americans so different? When conventional medicine fails, it is tragic. People form all parts of the world suffer from pain and disease in exactly the same way. They all want to get better.

Isn't it true that "whoever heals is right", regardless of the technique?

About Seth and self-created realities: Seth, or others who came before him, never implied that all you need to do was to "wish yourself rich, pretty, intelligent, etc.", and all those things would come to pass, as if by magic. That, of course, would be nonsensical, and can easily be disproved.

However, when you start training your mind, and learn to direct your attention and focus in ways different from a regular, materialistic perspective, through mental exercises such as meditation, will you notice that your mental activity hugely impacts on your subjective experience. In fact, you realise that it is a question of intensity of thought - Seth speaks of the intensity of emotional charge behind a thought - that turns thoughts into reality. Seth proposes exercises in his books, and I recommend trying them out, before placing judgement. Furthermore, he wrote his books such that the reader's perception and interaction with reality is altered, simply by reading them. You will find many Seth fans who can attest to this effect.

I know it is difficult for the western mind to grasp these concepts. I initially didn't believe them myself, and thought they were too far fetched, and over the top. However, I eventually realised that these philosophies are the only rational means for explaining seemingly paradox, or unconnected, events.