salvia divinorum

[BrandonD]

Hi, I don't know if any of you guys are familiar with this particular substance. Relatively new to the west, salvia divinorum is a plant-based psychedelic which is extremely potent. It's effects are very powerful and almost instantaneous, but extremely brief (the effects generally last only a few minutes). It's still legal in most states of the US, but I don't know about other countries.

I've brought up psychedelics in the past, and I just wanted to mention that I'm not some drug-addled hippie. I generally don't get along with hippies, I hate patchouli, I don't smoke pot, and I'm not a vegetarian. I do like nature, though.

I'm only interested in the psychedelic experience because I really feel that it is related to paranormal phenomena. It is immensely both terrifying and fascinating, and I consider it as one means of stepping across the veil and directly experiencing this other realm... which is why it appeals to me. I really doubt that much can be learned about this other "place" by just talking about it.

This is the point where I'd probably be expected to add a caveat stating that I'm not endorsing drug use, but I'm not gonna do that. You're supposedly a free citizen, I'm just speaking my mind and you can do what you like. All I will endorse is to read alot.

Anyway, I tried salvia for the first time last night. It's been quite a while since I took a psychedelic, and this was an extremely intense experience so I thought you guys might like to hear about it.

There are certain aspects of the psychedelic experience that are impossible to describe to someone who is not familiar, but I'll go ahead and give it a shot. It brings to mind different languages, and how the french have like four different words for "love" and we have only one. So a frenchman can be describing four different things to me, and in my english mind he is only talking about one thing because of the poverty of the english language in that respect.

Anyway, I was in my kitchen with a group of people (most of whom have no familiarity or interest in these subjects) and I ingested the salvia. There was an instant shift, I was still myself but I had been slightly dislodged from my ordinary position within my head. Nothing had changed, the people still looked exactly the same and the room still looked exactly the same, but something had most definitely changed. It was an overwhelming sense, something similar to a recognition of the absolute falseness of everything around me just a moment ago. Falseness not in the buddhist sense, but in the sense of watching a play. Or rather being a participant in a play, one that you had assumed all along was very real. There was a sense of being on an infinitely immense precipice, and on the other side was some sort of dismantling and a point of no return. I didn't know what would make everything tip over this precipice, but I was extremely frightened and confused.

Somehow in the midst of this I had the vague recollection that I had taken salvia, and I remembered something I had read which reminded me not to be afraid, and to laugh. So I tried not to be scared and take the whole thing as simply a humorous and bizarre vision.

The people in the room looked at me and smiled. I had this intense feeling that they were not the people I had assumed them to be a moment ago. They had removed their costumes, or something else was being revealed through them. One of them told me that perhaps I was ready to hear what was really going on. I began to rotate in the room involuntarily, as if I was on a merry go round. My view went around the room from one person to the other, as if I was rotating in the center. They told me some things that were very frightening, relating to the fact that I was dealing with things I didn't understand and they were laughing. There was most definitely a sinister feeling to this part.

Moments later, I was back to myself. Back in the kitchen standing by the stove, and the other people were talking about unrelated subjects. I asked them if I had been walking around in a circle and they said no. I asked my friend if she had told me about being ready to hear what's going on. She said no.

The only thing I can say with a feeling of certainty is that psychedelics are not just chemicals that scramble your brain. I mean, salvia and lsd have these effects in the *micrograms*, for goodness sake! There is something else going on there.

But at the very least, even if you completely disagree with my point of view this should be at least an interesting story for your Thursday afternoon.

Lastly, to follow up with this idea of the relation between the psychedelic experience and the paranormal experience, I have a question for Jeff R or Jeremy V or anyone else who's had extensive contact with these other beings. Does the experience that I'm describing here bear any similarities to the feelings and sensations you experience while in the presence of these beings?

 

[CapnG]

It certainly is an interesting story but a story is all I can take it to be. And as for this statement:

The only thing I can say with a feeling of certainty is that psychedelics are not just chemicals that scramble your brain. I mean, salvia and lsd have these effects in the *micrograms*, for goodness sake! There is something else going on there.

Seriously? How do you know? More correctly, how COULD you know? Since the brain is a chemical machine, anything which can overwhelm it would create false inputs that seem totally real, with absolutely no basis for comparison. In fact, impirically speaking the very fact that your friends said you did not spin around the room is evidence that this was nothing more than a very powerful hallucination.

 

[Mothra]

WAY back in the day I tried a substance known as Sacred Datra. It is the mother of all psychedelics. It makes peyote and LSD feel like childs play, prior to taking this plant I did LSD and mushrooms quite a few times. It was just something I could handle and didn't really have any negative effects on me. Pot on the other hand made me ill and I absolutely hated it.

Sacred Datra is an plant that grows outside of Phoenix going towards Payson AZ. It grows on the edges of creek beds and every part of the plant will mess you up. However if you pull up the vines you will see these brainy looking spiked pods growing underneath. Inside these pods are these gooey seeds. Thats what I took. For the next three days I went to a different world. Things like a shirt on a chair became a duck and I had quite a lengthy conversation with it. It was as real as anything in my normal reality. That was the last time I did drugs. It went on for three days and I had to have 2 people baby sit me the whole time.

Brandon, dude it was all in your head. Yes its very surreal and intense but basically these drugs cause chemical reactions in your brain and thats why you trip. Stop doing them because they WILL fry you. And once that happens there is no coming back.

 

[Siani]

Isn't Salvia Divinorum used in sacred shamanistic ceremonies? Just because something is natural, it doesn't mean it's safe to take, and that it can't fry your head. Hallucinogenic drugs can lead to all sorts of delusions and madness. Rather than inducing psychic or paranormal experiences, most people I know who have used them fairly regularly, have ended up suffering from serious mental disorders. Such drugs have been linked with clinical depression, suicidal feelings, schizophrenia and various psychoses. That 'sinister feeling' is what is commonly known as a bad trip - a form of drug-induced paranoia. Trying to open oneself up to paranormal experiences, whether through drugs, or simply bidding something to get in touch, is not wise. The paranormal, whatever that may be, is probably something that should not be invoked lightly, if at all. I know many an amateur occultist who has opened up a Pandora's box, and then been unable to slam the lid back down. Be very, very careful. Both real and imagined paranormal experiences can have far-reaching and intensely negative effects on the human psyche. It's rather like prodding a rattlesnake and expecting it not to bite.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

Since the brain is a chemical machine, anything which can overwhelm it would create false inputs that seem totally real, with absolutely no basis for comparison.

There are a number of theories about just what kind of a machine the brain is. It's not an established fact that it's primarily a chemically driven thing. Some scientists, the more hard-thinking and philosophical ones, in my opinion, compare it to a holographic emitter. See "The Holographic Universe," by Michael Talbot. Read it and then see his bibliography. Read Bohm and others. It's real shit, homes.

Other scientists think that the experiences derived from the free-thinking will PRODUCE chemicals in the brain, not the other way around. Consider the implications, and then reassess your perceptions.

You don't know what the brain is. We humans do not know nearly so much as we think we know. Just about every time we think we know something, something else that we think we know comes up and so forth.

And, for that matter, have you tried psychedelics? Have you taken the substance that Brandon is describing?

How do you know that these substances do not open the door to paranormal city? You don't know. Just because chemicals may cause the sensations doesn't mean there is no paranormal aspect to the experience. The chemicals could be the vehicles to the mystical part of a drug trip.

And, for that matter, what in the hell are chemicals? I mean what are they really, in the continental philosophy kind of way? What are the things in themselves?

 

[CapnG]

There are a number of theories about just what kind of a machine the brain is. It's not an established fact that it's primarily a chemically driven thing. Some scientists, the more hard-thinking and philosophical ones, in my opinion, compare it to a holographic emitter. See "The Holographic Universe," by Michael Talbot. Read it and then see his bibliography. Read Bohm and others. It's real shit, homes.

Scientists should leave the philosophy to philosophers.

You don't know what the brain is.

Yes I do. It's a lump of grey-ish fat in the middle of my skull. It's swarming with chemicals, creating bio-electric charges that do everything from make me breathe to allowing me to type this. I know this not because I am a genius but because hundreds of men and women have spent decades (centuries, even) learning this and have passed it on.

We humans do not know nearly so much as we think we know. Just about every time we think we know something, something else that we think we know comes up and so forth.

OKay, this is really starting to irritate me now. We know PLENTY. We certainly know a hell of a lot more than we did 100 years ago, hell even 50 years ago. Tomorrow we'll know something else too. This "we know nothing" crap, is just that: CRAP. And to cling to that notion is intellectually dishonest.

And, for that matter, have you tried psychedelics? Have you taken the substance that Brandon is describing?

Nope, don't plan to either. EVER. You see, as far as I know, my brain is me. That's it, just a handful of grey jello. Explain to me why in the hell I would even consider for a second messing with that? People like Brandon floor me with their openess but even more so with their disregard for personal safety. Have you ever stepped in front of a bus just to see what THAT feels like? I'm betting you haven't...

How do you know that these substances do not open the door to paranormal city? You don't know. Just because chemicals may cause the sensations doesn't mean there is no paranormal aspect to the experience. The chemicals could be the vehicles to the mystical part of a drug trip.

Do you believe in magic? I don't, so I don't believe in this. Chemically induced brain damage is not a paranormal event.

And, for that matter, what in the hell are chemicals? I mean what are they really, in the continental philosophy kind of way? What are the things in themselves?

Um... specific combinations of atoms linked to form a molecular compound which, when introduced to other such compounds combines with them to form new compounds? It's been a while since grade 10 science...

 

[DBTrek]

Seriously? How do you know? More correctly, how COULD you know? Since the brain is a chemical machine, anything which can overwhelm it would create false inputs that seem totally real, with absolutely no basis for comparison. In fact, impirically speaking the very fact that your friends said you did not spin around the room is evidence that this was nothing more than a very powerful hallucination.

Correct.

During my college days I experimented with salvia as well as mushrooms. The chemical effects they produce seem very real. So real, in fact, that people sometimes forget that the physical laws of nature haven't been suspended just because they're "trippin' bawlz".

I once had an experience where I thought I was a god-beetle, part of a pantheon of other god-beetles. I had a thick carapace (my leather coat) and a tough shell covering my skull (a wool hat) and my perception of time/reality was distorted to the point where I knew I was something beyond mortal. Therefore, I had to be a god-beetle.

... except I wasn't. I was just a dude who was trippin' really hard on nine grams of shrooms.

We can fool ourselves when it comes to reality, but we can't fool reality.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

Dear CapnG:

Scientists should leave the philosophy to the philosophers? Wrong. Scientists should be steeped in philosophy, especially the philosophy of science. Your response to my post is a pretty good example of why everyone should be steeped in philosophy. Especially your little rant about what chemicals are.

I have nothing more to say to you about this.

 

[BrandonD]

Seriously? How do you know? More correctly, how COULD you know? Since the brain is a chemical machine, anything which can overwhelm it would create false inputs that seem totally real, with absolutely no basis for comparison. In fact, impirically speaking the very fact that your friends said you did not spin around the room is evidence that this was nothing more than a very powerful hallucination.

Back in the 60s there was a guy from Scientific American who published a paper explaining why it would be impossible for a flying device to reach the moon. He showed the amount of horsepower that would be required and explained that it was completely impossible. However, he was thinking in terms of the single-stage rockets of the time, and of course didn't take into consideration that there would be more powerful multiple-stage rockets created in the future.

The poverty of his imagination, and his assumption that his knowledge was complete, led him to assume there was only one conclusion.

This story gives a rough illustration of the preconceived ideas people have about this subject.

 

[DBTrek]

Back in the 60s there was a guy from Scientific American who published a paper explaining why it would be impossible for a flying device to reach the moon. He showed the amount of horsepower that would be required and explained that it was completely impossible. However, he was thinking in terms of the single-stage rockets of the time, and of course didn't take into consideration that there would be more powerful multiple-stage rockets created in the future.

The poverty of his imagination, and his assumption that his knowledge was complete, led him to assume there was only one conclusion.

This story gives a rough illustration of the preconceived ideas people have about this subject.

An interesting and well stated point, but in this case the subject of the experiment (your mind) is also being used in the observation and analysis of the event. This makes for bad science. An intoxicated/effected brain can not be used for impartial analysis of itself. A video camera, in your example, would make a better observer. You could rewind the tape to the 'room spinning' incident and see what was actually taking place in reality. You could then compare this to your recollection of what happened and determine whether or not your perceptions were accurate.

Just make sure you destroy the footage of your psychedlic trips before running for congress.

 

[BrandonD]

An interesting and well stated point, but in this case the subject of the experiment (your mind) is also being used in the observation and analysis of the event. This makes for bad science. An intoxicated/effected brain can not be used for impartial analysis of itself. A video camera, in your example, would make a better observer. You could rewind the tape to the 'room spinning' incident and see what was actually taking place in reality. You could then compare this to your recollection of what happened and determine whether or not your perceptions were accurate.

Just make sure you destroy the footage of your psychedlic trips before running for congress.

Haha! And I guess I'll have to have all of you silenced as well. Nothing personal, of course.

Well my psychedelic idea goes along with that weird notion that there are other aspects of reality existing alongside the waking one, and for whatever reason we are unable to access these other aspects in our ordinary state. It's my intuitive feeling that this is the case.

Since I'm starting from a point that I'm unable to put into words, I really have no defense for my position.

But it's my opinion that words are a confining mechanism, they take the infinite facets of sensory and cognitive experience and shave away all the differences and nuances, so that we can all share in a collective experience of the world. So there is a legitimate reason why some experiences and states cannot be adequately put into words.

That said, I try as best I can not to reach any sort of hasty conclusions. I'm even open to the absolutely mundane possibility that these beings simply induce these altered states in us, in order to render us helpless. Perhaps there's nothing more to it than that.

But I feel there is something more to it than that. But until I have a better handle on the "why", I see no reason for anyone to take my wacky word for it.

 

[BrandonD]

But I feel there is something more to it than that. But until I have a better handle on the "why", I see no reason for anyone to take my wacky word for it.

I thought I might also add that the main reason I've become so interested in this subject is because of my Peru experience. Groups of people, myself included, had identical "hallucinatory" experiences. It happened several times, I confirmed them myself by asking other people of their experiences before revealing my own.

There is also a feeling of "hyper-reality" associated with these altered states, which I've heard described in many of these ufo-type experiences.

So based upon my own experiences and what I've read about ufo encounters, I think it's possible that there are aspects of reality that we normally can't perceive, and where other sorts of beings can exist.

We are physically hard-wired to perceive only a certain spectrum of the world. But, by means of certain chemicals, perhaps we disrupt or interfere with the physical mechanisms that define the parameters our perception. Often this disruption results in the equivalent of random static, but occasionally this disruption results in a coherent reorganizing of perception which allows one to tune into a different spectrum of the world that's normally imperceptible.

This is only a possibility, but because of my experiences it's a possibility that I seriously consider.

 

[TClaeys]

A couple of thoughts maybe worth considering.

1. Psychedelics and something useful? In the 50's LSD was used to treat alcoholism. At first by trying to sort of scare the patients into a bad trip so that the suggestions of quitting drinking would tag along as well. This didn't work. Then they tried to have patients see what they were doing to themselves and their families, etc. This worked.

From what I understand they were able to comprehend what was happening by "contemplating" and exploring under the drug. In a sense it gave the patients another view of what was happening to them and their lives in a way that they couldn't resolve with their own "regular" thinking and assessment.

Of course about this time, LSD started the hippy movement and all of it's social deviancy, etc. So my thought is that a drug may help you see into yourself in a way that you normally couldn't, opening "doors" to borrow from Morrison.

Disclosure: By the way I'm not saying we should go back to days of tripping alcoholics. And I'm not saying it worked everytime, this is from a documentary I watched with scientists working in Canada. I'm just saying there may be at times some merits for such drugs. Geez look at all the chemicals to treat depression, insomnia, schizophrenia. They are just a different chemical structure.

2. I have a hunch that if someone has been adbucted (alien-or-wahtever) and has a video recorder running, they aren't going to capture a thing. Same thing if you could have one running if you saw a full blown apparition. I think, perhaps, there is something internal or external that may be going on that wouldn't relate to "reality" as we know it.

In other words someone may experience an abduction, while an observer sees nothing, sort of like the Contact movie thing So is it brain chemicals or another universe or another "channel" tuned in? I don't know, but at this point I don't think psychedelics produce the same type of paranormal thing. I think they take you to your deepest internal roots and fears and hopes and kind of wiggle them all up and out come the hallucinations.

People will be people and I don't think there is anything wrong with exploring your world and yourself. And for some that involves drugs. Big deal. Just be careful and recognize excess. There are plenty of chemicals we put into our body on a daily basis that will kill us. Doesn't seem to stop us.

Interesting thread.

 

[CapnG]

Scientists should leave the philosophy to the philosophers? Wrong. Scientists should be steeped in philosophy, especially the philosophy of science. Your response to my post is a pretty good example of why everyone should be steeped in philosophy. Especially your little rant about what chemicals are.

Your comments are steeped in something alright... but it ain't philosophy. Espescially if you consider a simple statement about chemicals and what they are to be a "rant".

I have nothing more to say to you about this.

But we can still meet on thursdays for raquet ball, right?

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

What are the things themselves, what is the nature of the stuff that constitutes atoms? What are they -- really? We don't know. We talk of atoms and quarks and strings and whatever else that will be invented after those, but we do not know what these things are. It is a mystery. You can pretend it's as simple as throwing around the words that humans invented to signify the objects, but anyone who has ever studied even a small amount of Western Philosophy from Kant onwards knows that it is much more complicated.

You think that you know much, but you actually know very little.

I lied when I said I was through talking to you. It's just frustrating to talk to someone who clearly thinks he already has everything figured out. But, like the Christ, I will try to take the burden of your ignorance upon myself. Perhaps your brain will turn on after a while.

 

[CapnG]

The poverty of his imagination, and his assumption that his knowledge was complete, led him to assume there was only one conclusion.

There's your key word: assume. Why would you assume that taking the drug transported you to some "otherverse" over the much more reasonable explanation that you were in fact tripping out, espescially when your own friends were standing there right next you, providing you with an alternative viewpoint (something the fellow in your example lacked)?

 

[CapnG]

You can pretend it's as simple as throwing around the words that humans invented to signify the objects, but anyone who has ever studied even a small amount of Western Philosophy from Kant onwards knows that it is much more complicated.

It may disapoint you then to know that I have studied some philosophy, both eastern and western and I do not agree. And further, I re-iterate that scientists and philosphers jobs should be kept seperate. Scientists are tasked with finding what things ARE. It's left up to philosphers to determine what the things the scientists discover MEAN. Very, very different tasks in my opinion.

Ultimately, I don't care about where the chemicals "come from" within the context of this discussion. For me the importance begins and ends with what they are and we know they can do, both from scientific research and first hand accounts and all signs point to hallucinations, not otherworldly realties.

I don't buy into this notion of language being limited either. There are now over 1,000,000 words in the english language! If you can't say what you mean, I say expand your vocabulary! To simply declare "there are no words" is laziness. Explainations need not be poetic. Inelegance is secondary to accuracy in it's importance where information is concerned.

 

[BrandonD]

There's your key word: assume. Why would you assume that taking the drug transported you to some "otherverse" over the much more reasonable explanation that you were in fact tripping out, espescially when your own friends were standing there right next you, providing you with an alternative viewpoint (something the fellow in your example lacked)?

If you read my posts, you'll notice that I don't assume anything related to what you're saying. I only consider my idea as a legitimate possibility worth thinking about. You don't think that way, that's fine.

Ask yourself which one of us is making the assumptions here. Which one of us is assuming that people, in their ordinary state, are able to perceive everything around them in their world exactly as it is?

Here is an example that parallels what I think might be the current situation:

There are a tribe of men in the jungle who are all red/green color blind. Put a tomato and a leaf in front of them and they see the same colors for both. One of the tribal members ingests a substance, and in his altered state he sees that the tomato and the leaf are two distinctly different colors.

When he comes out of the altered state, the leaf and the tomato are back to their ordinary identical color. He communicates this bizarre experience to the other tribal members. They tell him that during the ceremony, all the other men could see that nothing at all had changed about the tomato and the leaf. They've remained the same all along.

Well, these men are determined to find out what is the objective truth here. So, through some crazy means, they manage to acquire a camcorder and they repeat the ceremony.

The man ingesting the plant once again sees these strange new colors. He comes out of the altered state, and they all watch the video. In the video, all they see throughout the ceremony are two identically colored objects sitting there. So the tribe decides that the man ingesting the substance is simply "tripping balls", and nothing he perceives should be taken seriously.

There's no reason to accept any of this as a factual metaphor, but it should be held as a possibility that we might be unable to discover the true nature of reality by staying within our ivory tower and peering out the window. Perhaps sometimes the only road is direct experience.

 

[Don Keyhoe-Ti]

Sally D? Tried that once - walked around a shared house for two days with no pants on apparently!

My only recollection was sitting around with friends, (with pants on,) and the stuff kicked in...."this is not real...THIS IS NOT REAL...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not real!" It was like a monkey was pressing a lever attached to the "this is not real!" button in my brain, because that's how the monkey got it's feed for the day, or whatever. It didn't come along with any particular paranoia at all, just a very insistent "this is not real!" impulse. I was looking around for any clues as to what wasn't real, what I could see here & now that indicated the unrealness of something or other. And nah, I could tell, everything was clearly as mundane as you could like, except for this impulse plus the half-disembodied mindfeel that went with it all.

Calculating the pros versus the possible cons, I wouldn't recommend it to an asshole.

 

[BrandonD]

I don't buy into this notion of language being limited either. There are now over 1,000,000 words in the english language! If you can't say what you mean, I say expand your vocabulary! To simply declare "there are no words" is laziness. Explainations need not be poetic. Inelegance is secondary to accuracy in it's importance where information is concerned.

There are 1,000,000 words in the english language, yet the amount of known species on the earth is almost double that number.

There will never be enough words to encompass the world, because words can never be anything more than an approximation. Some things can be approximated with words, and with pretty acccurate precision. In every instance, those things are prosaic things that are common to the experience of the people in that particular culture. Anything that is outside the ordinary mundane experience of that culture becomes increasingly difficult to describe.

There are at least 50 different synonyms for "sex". There are about 2 synonyms for "out of body experience".

Having said all that, I agree with you that people fall back on the argument that "there is no words" far too often. That's one of the traits I hate about the hippie culture. I have some hippie friends, and when they hear these ideas that sound profound to them (ie, "words are inadequate to fully describe human experience"), they just use these ideas to justify their intellectual laziness.