It only worked because it was a blackman holding the sign, its portraying him with a sense of ridiculous entitlement, we look we see we judge, instinct.
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Riot Day in Ferguson, Missouri
- Thread starter Charlie Prime
- Start date
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It only worked because it was a blackman holding the sign, its portraying him with a sense of ridiculous entitlement, we look we see we judge, instinct.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Instinct or training? Does the cop decide to do the choke hold because of instinctual drives or because of how his social and technical training interact?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
I think that's one major part of the problem. Social dynamics and history is the other part.
Wade
FeralNormal master
I would like to know what their training tells them when the perp/victim is telling them "I can't breath" To choke harder? Going on what I've heard...and seen...on this case I'm doing a 180° turn on this one. The officer (s) may or may not be racist, maybe they should take that test that @smcder and @Burnt State posted but in my world view if you have a unarmed suspect restrained to the point he can't breath...if Eric was resisting he probably was fighting for his life...and you don't let up it's murder. Especially if you are using a procedure that has been deemed illegal in the state that you are using it.
The past two cases imho are not related. Being that Eric died later on I'd be surprised if there wasn't an argument his death was of secondary causes or something asinine like that. Like near drowning victims have to be under observation because the damage can be delayed by 24 hours.
For the record i don't feel the least bit hypocritical for taking this position after posting my views on Michael Brown. So There !
The past two cases imho are not related. Being that Eric died later on I'd be surprised if there wasn't an argument his death was of secondary causes or something asinine like that. Like near drowning victims have to be under observation because the damage can be delayed by 24 hours.
For the record i don't feel the least bit hypocritical for taking this position after posting my views on Michael Brown. So There !
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Wade
FeralNormal master
Training would be a good answer but this maneuver has been judged illegal in the state it was used. I suppose you could make a point that it was in the police's arsenal when it wasn't illegal and you can't unlearn something like that. It may be instinctual. But it's not supposed to be used. Even if it was instinctual I have to wonder if the officer let up any when Eric was letting all involved know he couldn't breath or did he stay in there until Eric blacked out?
The N.Y. medical examiner ruled it a Homicide which in legal terms is a deliberate and UNLAWFUL taking of a life. This probably explains why the DOJ is getting involved in this one whereas they kept their distance on the Ferguson case.
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smcder
Guest
Rear naked choke hold came into use when police hired women and smaller officers - to use on larger persons - it can be reinforced with a baton.
It's effective within 10-15 seconds and then if you release pressure the person will normally come to in a few seconds. It drops pressure to the brain by acting on nerves in the carotid.
I've used it on some really big guys, jump on their backs and wrap up and it's hard to defend against - I've had it done on me too.
Id be surprised if it's allowed in many jurisdictions except in cases where the officers life or another's is at risk.
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Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
On its way or already in full effect? What's interesting about the American constitution is the tension allowed between federal control vs. self-regulation of the state. Some states have claimed their own 'ways of doing things' i.e. stand your ground laws, decriminalization of pot, gay marriage, conceal and carry gun laws...lots of odd contradictions. Meanwhile the federal gov't has total information control, can host prisoners in Guantanomo Bay and can 'neither confirm nor deny' reports while also offering FOIA requests. It's a real quagmire of tensions from the left and the right with an overlay of fascist corporate consumerism and the strong remnants of Puritanism, isolationism and exceptionalism.
I see America as a strange country that has some very progressive and regressive laws, and it can turn on a dime and rewrite reality in an instant. That really is an Orwellian event, like it's foreign policy, 'today we are friends with the Taliban,' 'now the Taliban is our enemy,' and look at where Iran has gone too - they're frenemies! It's kind of surreal really.
But what is very fascinating is the role of the media to bring us these very intense cases in a succession involving white police killing black men and black youth and this last one, if you've seen the video of the choke hold, his hands are in the air, he is not resisting, and what was it that the NYPD responded with: if you can talk, then you're breathing? So somehow this man's dying words, stretching for breath confirmed his guilt and the necessity for five officers to pile on him for selling cheap smokes. These are the lingering tensions of the past still not dealt with. America is a country that can tear itself apart.
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smcder
Guest
I'm not sure I follow that logic - Belgium didn't have a problem with minorities until it had minorities?
"The Berlin Conference of 1885 ceded control of the Congo Free State to King Leopold II as his private possession. From around 1900 there was growing international concern for the extreme and savage treatment of the Congolese population (millions of whom are thought to have died)[25] under Leopold II, for whom the Congo was primarily a source of revenue from ivory and rubber production. In 1908 this outcry led the Belgian state to assume responsibility for the government of the colony, henceforth called the Belgian Congo.[26]"
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smcder
Guest
On the other hand:
From 1942, opposition among the general population to the treatment of the Jews in Belgium grew. By the end of the occupation, more than 40 per cent of all Jews in Belgium were in hiding; many of them were hidden by Gentiles, particularly by Catholic priests and nuns. Some were helped by the organized resistance, such as the Comité de Défense des Juifs (CDJ; "Committee of Jewish Defence"), which provided food and refuge to hiding Jews. Many of the Jews in hiding joined the armed resistance. In April 1943, members of the CDJ attacked the twentieth rail convoy to Auschwitz and succeeded in rescuing some of those being deported.
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From 1942, opposition among the general population to the treatment of the Jews in Belgium grew. By the end of the occupation, more than 40 per cent of all Jews in Belgium were in hiding; many of them were hidden by Gentiles, particularly by Catholic priests and nuns. Some were helped by the organized resistance, such as the Comité de Défense des Juifs (CDJ; "Committee of Jewish Defence"), which provided food and refuge to hiding Jews. Many of the Jews in hiding joined the armed resistance. In April 1943, members of the CDJ attacked the twentieth rail convoy to Auschwitz and succeeded in rescuing some of those being deported.
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Charlie Prime
Paranormal Adept
I professionally taught Restrain & Control Procedures to mental health workers, cops, and prison guards for 20 years. I also owned a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy where we specialized in teaching chokes.
I have only heard about this case of death in New York, not seen any video, but I've studied such cases for decades in order to learn how to restrain people safely.
The most common cause of death during restraint is a phenomena known as "Positional Asphyxia". This occurs when the person being restrained has a large, fat belly. Placing the person in a prone position, then sitting or laying on their back causes the fat to compress their diaphragm, inhibiting its movement up and down, resulting in asphyxia. It has nothing to do with compressing the trachea, or vascular restraint.
I would bet $100 this is what caused the guy in New York to die. I would like to see a video someday to see if the cops were on top of him. Wal-Mart changed their shoplifter restraint procedures after a string of deaths from positional asphyxia several years ago. No mental health facilities use that type of horizontal restraint anymore. It's too dangerous.
I've seen it occur and had to stop it in my classes hundreds of times. People have a natural instinct to put the person being restrained on their belly, face-down.
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Charlie Prime
Paranormal Adept
The purpose of media hype over police killing black people is to create racial division, to make people think of each other in terms of class and race, not as individuals.
It's the Cultural Marxism you promote Burnt State. The idea is to destroy society so the Marxist "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" can seize control.
It's nothing new. Wall Street helped the Bolsheviks do it in Russia. Wall Street helped Mao do it in China.
Now Wall Street is turning America into a police state and destroying the petite bourgeoisie with taxes and regulation, just like you want.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
I own a Tae Kwon Do studio and have trained since 1975. I also trained all branches of law enforcement for 3 years in restraints, knife attacks and gun retention.
I saw the video and they did both compress the tracheae and laid in his back or side.
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Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Perhaps you can implement a global warming awareness workshop in your studio?
S
smcder
Guest
I was just trying to remember that term - it came up again for LE when new synthetic drugs hit the market, discussed in conjunction with excited delirium. I remember it was controversial in terms of the science behind it ... people on synthetics being restrained and then dying suddenly in custody.
One theory was it released a chain of catecholamines and this over stimulated the body leading to death.
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Wade
FeralNormal master
It was probably more valid than Chief Gate's suggesting that the physiological differences in the circulatory systems of African Americans was a determining factor in their deaths when being restrained by officers in LAPD back in the early 80's.
Later on Darryl amended this sentiment by suggesting he was misquoted and claiming he was pointing out that blacks were more predisposed to circulatory/cardiovascular diseases making their deaths more likely.
I'm going with Charlie Prime ' s and Pixel' s observations, and that Darryl Gates put the para in paramilitary police force . He's the man that brought us SWAT teams and armored vehicles. probably nice to have against drug gangs and the symbionese liberation army but pretty much unnecessary against evictions.
Later on Darryl amended this sentiment by suggesting he was misquoted and claiming he was pointing out that blacks were more predisposed to circulatory/cardiovascular diseases making their deaths more likely.
I'm going with Charlie Prime ' s and Pixel' s observations, and that Darryl Gates put the para in paramilitary police force . He's the man that brought us SWAT teams and armored vehicles. probably nice to have against drug gangs and the symbionese liberation army but pretty much unnecessary against evictions.
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Charlie Prime
Paranormal Adept
I had to look that up.
Catecholamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sounds plausible to me. I know it sounds implausible, but sometimes people being restrained just simply die from the stress.
I testified as an expert witness in a couple of court cases where this was the case. The person in restraint died, even though there was no compromised respiratory function, or compromised cardiac function. They just died. The doctors said it was something like "catecholamines", but I don't remember the exact terminology.
Basically, if a person is unaccustomed to it, being put in restraint is tremendously stressful, both physically and psychologically. People just die from that stress sometimes. Sounds silly, but it's true.
In this New York case it sounds like the cops were doing the restraint very wrong, which is Not Surprising. Cops are freakin lazy. They hate training, and most view it as a stupid, time-wasting bureaucratic imposition (which a lot of it is).
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pixelsmith
Guest
S
smcder
Guest
I had to look that up.
Catecholamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sounds plausible to me. I know it sounds implausible, but sometimes people being restrained just simply die from the stress.
I testified as an expert witness in a couple of court cases where this was the case. The person in restraint died, even though there was no compromised respiratory function, or compromised cardiac function. They just died. The doctors said it was something like "catecholamines", but I don't remember the exact terminology.
Basically, if a person is unaccustomed to it, being put in restraint is tremendously stressful, both physically and psychologically. People just die from that stress sometimes. Sounds silly, but it's true.
In this New York case it sounds like the cops were doing the restraint very wrong, which is Not Surprising. Cops are freakin lazy. They hate training, and most view it as a stupid, time-wasting bureaucratic imposition (which a lot of it is).
"Cops are freakin lazy. They hate training"
I heard that a LOT from a lot of trainers in LE.
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