Id also just like to say that I just cant seem to fathom why people are thanking Mr Schuyler for his so-called review. How can anyone consider that piece a fair review of a book? Its not a review at all, its a citique of Richard Dolan poorly disguised as a book review, and it seems most of the people posting on here cant tell the difference, so what are their comments worth anyway, if thats the case?
-
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Richard Dolan's Tin Foil Hat; a general systems theory of conspiracy
- Thread starter Schuyler
- Start date
bobheck
Disco still sucks.
It is a forum. A forum was designed specifically for posting comments and discussion.
dyingsun
Paranormal Adept
I'd say that is because people here actually follow what is happening in the 'field', a review is still a piece of opinion.
Gareth
Nothin' to see here
Don't generalize. I have made it obvious that it would like to hear Rich on the show again. As have others in the thread.
Also David mentioned on this weeks show that he hopes Rich would go on the show again.
Also David mentioned on this weeks show that he hopes Rich would go on the show again.
The Pair of Cats
a.k.a Philip Deane
Schuyler is entitled to his opinion whether it be in the form of a post, here, or a critique, as is anyone. Dolan immerses himself, by choice, in the shit pool of dodgy characters and some of that shit is gonna stick. By all means Dolan should come back on the show to explain his position, as is his right, and i for one look forward to that show if it eventuates.
drew hempel
Skilled Investigator
Schuyler -- you've written a good critique of Dolan's Vol II -- even though I personally disagree with your criticisms. One section I found personally very funny was your claim of the impossibility of a personal conversation with a vice president. It turns out that I, ALSO, was in the same VFW building as the Vice President Al Gore when he was about to make a speech before a VFW audience -- admittedly it was a rally for his presidential campaign in 2000 -- and the audience was not VFW members but mainly union members. Still Vice President Al Gore did address me and even better I convinced Al Gore to meet with me personally for a half hour in the same VFW building right after his VFW speech -- and he had a dozen secret service there with him as well. I give the details of my encounter with Vice President Al Gore here:
<table class="wide" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="msgheader">From: Drew W Hempel <hemp0027@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2000 8:27 pm
Subject: mtg. w/Gore! </td><td class="msgheader" rowspan="2" style="padding-right: 5px;"> hemp0027@...
Send Email </td> </tr><tr> <td class="msg"> </td> <td class="msg user"> <table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="805" height="3127"><tbody><tr><td>
For Immediate Release
March 10, 2000
Activists Confront Gore about the U'WA in half-hour mtg.
Contact Drew Hempel at hemp0027@...
Rainforest Action Network activists in the Twin Cities Minnesota, on the
night of March 10th, had about a half hour confrontation with Vice
President Gore--a private meeting. that occurred in the basement of the
VFW, just after his campaign speech. The meeting was extremely interesting
since we confronted him on many issues and basically spelled out an
anti-elite democratic vision to Gore. Below is my description of the
event--(I refer to other activists as "another" even though sometimes it
maybe the same person again--names were never ok'd for this breaking news
release. Following the description is further background info. on the
issue). The general protest during his speech was scantily dismissed on
National Public Radio and in the Twin Cities paper--the corporate media
just regurgitated the destructive views of Gore as usual.
Upon Arrival at the VFW....The "Speech"
"He's a protester, He's one of them!" cried out one of the Gore
campaigners. I was pulled aside by secret service as I approached the
entryway. The secret service dog was enjoying my smelly socks in my
backpack but the man looking through the bag did not even notice the stack
of "Who is Al Gore?" fliers. According to the campaigners, apparently if I
disagree with Gore, I can't go see him. But after promising that I hadn't
handed out the fliers, that I would not yell anything, that I didn't have a
banner, and that I would not hand anything out inside, they let me in. So
much for first amendment rights. The VFW Hall was an intimate gathering of
mainly union people, VFW people, the mayor of Mpls., Senator Wellstone,
Rep. Sabo, Walter Mondale, their partners, and the corporate media.
When Gore came out to speak--to the tacky blaring of "We Are Family," there
was about 15 of us protesters inside and along with other "non-protesters"
many soon began yelling stuff. I was yelling it's all "the same corporate
elite" and "what about the U'WA!?" Others yelled "stop killing the U'WA!"
and similar statements about Occidental Petroleum (OXY). Gore said "And
about you protesters out there I'll meet with you afterwards," telling us
to be quiet. Paul Wellstone, the sell-out, looked extremely dismayed. We
continued to cry out, since Gore has ignored the 20 or so previous
confrontations with him about the U'WA. When Gore claimed to want open
meetings with Bush and to challenge Bush, I yelled out, "We
challenge Gore about the U'WA!" The Gore campaigners quickly brought
signs to have people hold up all around us so that we were hidden by the
signs. But since we were right in camera view of Gore, the campaigner had
to then ask that the Gore signs be taken down because the view was blocked
but I raised Gore's book "The Earth in Balance," yelling "Read your Book!"
Two others held up a banner several times before getting ejected from the
VFW hall. When Gore walked out I got to the exit line, shook his hand
saying, "What about the U'WA? What about the meeting?" Media people
surrounded us and I heard Gore saying "I'd meet with you but you didn't
keep up your end of the bargain." Implying we had successfully disrupted
him. But these two media guys claimed he said he'd meet with us. They
were standing next to me and could hear Gore better as he left the room. I
thought, "we'll if they say so," so I quickly looked for the Gore
campaigners and the other protesters.
Soon after Gore's assistant came out with the secret service and asked us
to have one leader/spokesperson. She told us this meeting was highly
unprecedented, especially with so many of us. She allowed no media. We
refused to have a leader. We were told to remove jackets, bags, and
potential weapons and we were lead to a backroom to be scanned.
The Meeting with GORE about the U'WA
We decided that one of us would say a short introduction, stating that two
other people would make brief statements with the second person asking the
question. Having experience with corporate elite at the U of MN, I
predicted that he'd try to control the talk and fill us with
irrelevant information that ignored the issue. After being scanned by
secret service and led to a basement room where about 20 secret service
people stood, about 15 of us waited in a semicircle. Gore came out and
tried to shake our hands. He got to the second person, after shaking the
first hand, but the second refused to do so. So then our introduction
began.
Gore, after the first person mentioned the two other coming statements,
interrupted the introduction and tried to go into a long tirade about us,
just as we predicted! I interrupted him and told him to let us finish so
we can ask the question and then I began reading off his connections to
Oxy, as stated in the NY Times ad. He tried to cut me off before the last
connection but I insisted we should just have two more minutes. I
finished then the third person began to speak. She was also cut off by
Gore so I interjected and read, as we had planned to do, the quote from his
book about
the need to protect indigenous peoples.
The I asked him if he was going to divest or not? He laid into us about
how we didn't know what a trust was, how his mom was on life support,
how his family had debts, and how legally he couldn't do anything. I
pointed out that slavery was legal too and we stated that it wasn't just
his financial holdings but that he had alot of influence otherwise
especially since the US Aid to Colombia was coming to vote soon. He stated
the Occidental Navy Reserve privatization was an "open bid." Another
asked him if he knew about the Geneva Convention on Genocide. He argued
that the Environmental Minister supported the oil project and that he had
won the prestigious Goldman Environmental Award. He claimed it was
Colombia's choice to drill and that this will help offset their debt and
help stabilize their guerilla and drug problem. Another pointed out that
it's precisely because of that guerilla/drug problem that oil drilling is a
direct threat
to the U'WA. Another stated that Gore could pull strings and asked if Gore
has been to Colombia. He said he hadn't. She stated that she had been to
Colombia and she didn't know how anyone could trust government officials in
Colombia and that "you [Gore] would probably not be safe in Colombia."
Confronting Gore on Structural Issues of Corporate Capitalism
While he went on about free markets, democracy and the environment, another
person pointed out that the U'WA is a democratic government and how "nice"
that the colonizers gave back some of the land they stole--commenting on a
recent
expansion of U'WA territory that Gore referenced. "What about all the
democratic governments we've overthrown in Latin America?" I asked. He
named two democratic presidents from the 50s but said there were no recent
examples. I asked him, "What about Noreiga and Panama? Did you see the
documentary Panama Deception that was banned from PBS?" He went on about
Colombia being full of Narcotraffickers and guerrillas. I asked him,
"Don't you know about Professor McCoy's book on the CIA? Their complicity
with the global drug trade is well documented." (the secret service seemed
to get edgy about this remark). He stated he's been leading OAS mtgs. to
help promote democracy. I asked him why is it that there is a direct
correlation with increased U.S. aid and an increase in human rights
violations in Latin America. I asked why is it that Colombia is the
highest recipient of U.S. Aid and has become the number one abuser of human
rights.
BACK To the U'WA
He said he knew the U'WA chief. One of us asked did he think the Chief
liked him. Gore responded well I think so. A latina women stated to Gore
that they were her people, that she could speak for them and so why are
they planning to commit mass suicide? Gore asked is she was U'WA and she
said she was Native American and "shame on you Gore." He tried to counter
her and she commented he was saying lies. Another pointed out that his mom
would be retiring but will have $600 a month social security to live on [in
comparison to Gore's mom]. Another asked "Why can't you transfer the
stocks to another equally profitable company?" Another pointed out that if
he cares so much about the environment did he know that the equivalent of
ten Exxon Valdez oil spills have occurred in Colombia. Gore said that he
didn't know this. Another pointed out that the U'WA are people too and
just as valuable as his life even if he didn't think so. Also that the
U'WA's environment is connected to everyone's environment. Another asked
who had the power to move the stocks and Gore said the trustee did but that
the trustee was legally required to do otherwise--implying he was required
to maximize profits. I pointed out that as a graduate student at the
University we just worked to divest $1.5 million and that citizens are
sovereign not corporations. I stated that we have the right to revoke the
charter of corporations that continuously violate the public good.
Others urged him to have the trustee move the stocks and asked him if he
was going to make a public statement. He said we had brought up some
points he hadn't thought of but that we hope he takes in mind the
clarifications [sic.] he made and that the information we've been providing
incorrectly implies he owns personal stock. (but he never specifically
countered our information which states very clearly its family holdings).
Gore stated he decided 26 years ago to never have personal stocks so he
wouldn't have a conflict of interest. The secret service, getting quite
impatient with Gore being put on the defensive for so long, motioned for
him to leave. As he walked off we told him the issue was not going away
and that the suicide of the U'WA would be on his conscience.
My Impression of GORE
The researcher Hannah Ardent used a term, "the banality of evil." The
issue of the U'WA is only one of many that Gore could be confronted
with--the genocidal war-crime sanctions on Iraq come to mind as well. I
think Gore is evil: he tried to cut us off and manhandle us by berating us
with irrelevant information. He tried to push responsibility onto others
that have less power, he avoided the direct issue. I perceived a lust for
power and disdain for the truth. He hid in ignorance and kissed up to
corruption by trying to hold out his life-support mother as a shield. He
left a wake of cynicism as he left the room, while his presence was
disgusting maybe we got through to him and maybe this information will help
keep the pressure on!
For Further Information
see Rainforest Action Network: Home, http://www.amazonwatch.org or Moles - Your Skin Mole Removal Experts
</pre></td></tr></tbody></table>
</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table class="wide" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="msgheader">From: Drew W Hempel <hemp0027@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2000 8:27 pm
Subject: mtg. w/Gore! </td><td class="msgheader" rowspan="2" style="padding-right: 5px;"> hemp0027@...
Send Email </td> </tr><tr> <td class="msg"> </td> <td class="msg user"> <table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="805" height="3127"><tbody><tr><td> For Immediate Release
March 10, 2000
Activists Confront Gore about the U'WA in half-hour mtg.
Contact Drew Hempel at hemp0027@...
Rainforest Action Network activists in the Twin Cities Minnesota, on the
night of March 10th, had about a half hour confrontation with Vice
President Gore--a private meeting. that occurred in the basement of the
VFW, just after his campaign speech. The meeting was extremely interesting
since we confronted him on many issues and basically spelled out an
anti-elite democratic vision to Gore. Below is my description of the
event--(I refer to other activists as "another" even though sometimes it
maybe the same person again--names were never ok'd for this breaking news
release. Following the description is further background info. on the
issue). The general protest during his speech was scantily dismissed on
National Public Radio and in the Twin Cities paper--the corporate media
just regurgitated the destructive views of Gore as usual.
Upon Arrival at the VFW....The "Speech"
"He's a protester, He's one of them!" cried out one of the Gore
campaigners. I was pulled aside by secret service as I approached the
entryway. The secret service dog was enjoying my smelly socks in my
backpack but the man looking through the bag did not even notice the stack
of "Who is Al Gore?" fliers. According to the campaigners, apparently if I
disagree with Gore, I can't go see him. But after promising that I hadn't
handed out the fliers, that I would not yell anything, that I didn't have a
banner, and that I would not hand anything out inside, they let me in. So
much for first amendment rights. The VFW Hall was an intimate gathering of
mainly union people, VFW people, the mayor of Mpls., Senator Wellstone,
Rep. Sabo, Walter Mondale, their partners, and the corporate media.
When Gore came out to speak--to the tacky blaring of "We Are Family," there
was about 15 of us protesters inside and along with other "non-protesters"
many soon began yelling stuff. I was yelling it's all "the same corporate
elite" and "what about the U'WA!?" Others yelled "stop killing the U'WA!"
and similar statements about Occidental Petroleum (OXY). Gore said "And
about you protesters out there I'll meet with you afterwards," telling us
to be quiet. Paul Wellstone, the sell-out, looked extremely dismayed. We
continued to cry out, since Gore has ignored the 20 or so previous
confrontations with him about the U'WA. When Gore claimed to want open
meetings with Bush and to challenge Bush, I yelled out, "We
challenge Gore about the U'WA!" The Gore campaigners quickly brought
signs to have people hold up all around us so that we were hidden by the
signs. But since we were right in camera view of Gore, the campaigner had
to then ask that the Gore signs be taken down because the view was blocked
but I raised Gore's book "The Earth in Balance," yelling "Read your Book!"
Two others held up a banner several times before getting ejected from the
VFW hall. When Gore walked out I got to the exit line, shook his hand
saying, "What about the U'WA? What about the meeting?" Media people
surrounded us and I heard Gore saying "I'd meet with you but you didn't
keep up your end of the bargain." Implying we had successfully disrupted
him. But these two media guys claimed he said he'd meet with us. They
were standing next to me and could hear Gore better as he left the room. I
thought, "we'll if they say so," so I quickly looked for the Gore
campaigners and the other protesters.
Soon after Gore's assistant came out with the secret service and asked us
to have one leader/spokesperson. She told us this meeting was highly
unprecedented, especially with so many of us. She allowed no media. We
refused to have a leader. We were told to remove jackets, bags, and
potential weapons and we were lead to a backroom to be scanned.
The Meeting with GORE about the U'WA
We decided that one of us would say a short introduction, stating that two
other people would make brief statements with the second person asking the
question. Having experience with corporate elite at the U of MN, I
predicted that he'd try to control the talk and fill us with
irrelevant information that ignored the issue. After being scanned by
secret service and led to a basement room where about 20 secret service
people stood, about 15 of us waited in a semicircle. Gore came out and
tried to shake our hands. He got to the second person, after shaking the
first hand, but the second refused to do so. So then our introduction
began.
Gore, after the first person mentioned the two other coming statements,
interrupted the introduction and tried to go into a long tirade about us,
just as we predicted! I interrupted him and told him to let us finish so
we can ask the question and then I began reading off his connections to
Oxy, as stated in the NY Times ad. He tried to cut me off before the last
connection but I insisted we should just have two more minutes. I
finished then the third person began to speak. She was also cut off by
Gore so I interjected and read, as we had planned to do, the quote from his
book about
the need to protect indigenous peoples.
The I asked him if he was going to divest or not? He laid into us about
how we didn't know what a trust was, how his mom was on life support,
how his family had debts, and how legally he couldn't do anything. I
pointed out that slavery was legal too and we stated that it wasn't just
his financial holdings but that he had alot of influence otherwise
especially since the US Aid to Colombia was coming to vote soon. He stated
the Occidental Navy Reserve privatization was an "open bid." Another
asked him if he knew about the Geneva Convention on Genocide. He argued
that the Environmental Minister supported the oil project and that he had
won the prestigious Goldman Environmental Award. He claimed it was
Colombia's choice to drill and that this will help offset their debt and
help stabilize their guerilla and drug problem. Another pointed out that
it's precisely because of that guerilla/drug problem that oil drilling is a
direct threat
to the U'WA. Another stated that Gore could pull strings and asked if Gore
has been to Colombia. He said he hadn't. She stated that she had been to
Colombia and she didn't know how anyone could trust government officials in
Colombia and that "you [Gore] would probably not be safe in Colombia."
Confronting Gore on Structural Issues of Corporate Capitalism
While he went on about free markets, democracy and the environment, another
person pointed out that the U'WA is a democratic government and how "nice"
that the colonizers gave back some of the land they stole--commenting on a
recent
expansion of U'WA territory that Gore referenced. "What about all the
democratic governments we've overthrown in Latin America?" I asked. He
named two democratic presidents from the 50s but said there were no recent
examples. I asked him, "What about Noreiga and Panama? Did you see the
documentary Panama Deception that was banned from PBS?" He went on about
Colombia being full of Narcotraffickers and guerrillas. I asked him,
"Don't you know about Professor McCoy's book on the CIA? Their complicity
with the global drug trade is well documented." (the secret service seemed
to get edgy about this remark). He stated he's been leading OAS mtgs. to
help promote democracy. I asked him why is it that there is a direct
correlation with increased U.S. aid and an increase in human rights
violations in Latin America. I asked why is it that Colombia is the
highest recipient of U.S. Aid and has become the number one abuser of human
rights.
BACK To the U'WA
He said he knew the U'WA chief. One of us asked did he think the Chief
liked him. Gore responded well I think so. A latina women stated to Gore
that they were her people, that she could speak for them and so why are
they planning to commit mass suicide? Gore asked is she was U'WA and she
said she was Native American and "shame on you Gore." He tried to counter
her and she commented he was saying lies. Another pointed out that his mom
would be retiring but will have $600 a month social security to live on [in
comparison to Gore's mom]. Another asked "Why can't you transfer the
stocks to another equally profitable company?" Another pointed out that if
he cares so much about the environment did he know that the equivalent of
ten Exxon Valdez oil spills have occurred in Colombia. Gore said that he
didn't know this. Another pointed out that the U'WA are people too and
just as valuable as his life even if he didn't think so. Also that the
U'WA's environment is connected to everyone's environment. Another asked
who had the power to move the stocks and Gore said the trustee did but that
the trustee was legally required to do otherwise--implying he was required
to maximize profits. I pointed out that as a graduate student at the
University we just worked to divest $1.5 million and that citizens are
sovereign not corporations. I stated that we have the right to revoke the
charter of corporations that continuously violate the public good.
Others urged him to have the trustee move the stocks and asked him if he
was going to make a public statement. He said we had brought up some
points he hadn't thought of but that we hope he takes in mind the
clarifications [sic.] he made and that the information we've been providing
incorrectly implies he owns personal stock. (but he never specifically
countered our information which states very clearly its family holdings).
Gore stated he decided 26 years ago to never have personal stocks so he
wouldn't have a conflict of interest. The secret service, getting quite
impatient with Gore being put on the defensive for so long, motioned for
him to leave. As he walked off we told him the issue was not going away
and that the suicide of the U'WA would be on his conscience.
My Impression of GORE
The researcher Hannah Ardent used a term, "the banality of evil." The
issue of the U'WA is only one of many that Gore could be confronted
with--the genocidal war-crime sanctions on Iraq come to mind as well. I
think Gore is evil: he tried to cut us off and manhandle us by berating us
with irrelevant information. He tried to push responsibility onto others
that have less power, he avoided the direct issue. I perceived a lust for
power and disdain for the truth. He hid in ignorance and kissed up to
corruption by trying to hold out his life-support mother as a shield. He
left a wake of cynicism as he left the room, while his presence was
disgusting maybe we got through to him and maybe this information will help
keep the pressure on!
For Further Information
see Rainforest Action Network: Home, http://www.amazonwatch.org or Moles - Your Skin Mole Removal Experts
</pre></td></tr></tbody></table>
</td></tr></tbody></table>
111uminate
One and None
Ah .. I'm really at odds. Like many, I admired Dolan's work (Note, his work) since his inception into the field and the publishing of his first book. It was hard not to see the contrast he provided in comparison to others and the field itself. I read the entire review and I find myself in bittersweet agreement with you Schuyler. It is a serious hit on the book that much of it is recycled research carried out by others, especially considering the manner in which he recounted them. Considering his background, you honestly have to expect more than that, which I did. That is a problem I've had with the field for quite some time now; the bulk of "new research" is never that. Excluding the work of MUFON and organizations like it, what you have is a rehashing of old data presented just as it were, sometimes with an included new revelation that can never be substantiated. It really is disappointing to see Dolan trek down that road, but I can't say I offer much in the way of sympathy. We all make our own decisions, and my decision in reading that review I consider to be a good one. I'd rather be disappointed and informed than be ignorant.
Thank you for the review and the work you put into it.
Thank you for the review and the work you put into it.