Randall
J. Randall Murphy
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November 30, 2014 — Dr. Bruce Maccabee
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
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withoutlimits09
Paranormal Adept
I didn't finish the episode, but did you guys ask him if he still thinks "The Guardian" footage is the best evidence of a UFO...LOL.
He is clearly a very bright guy, however the fact he was on the wrong side of two, in my opinion, very CLEAR UFO hoaxes (guardian and ed walters), I take much of his conclusions with a grain of salt. I don't know how anyone can look at the Walter's photos and think they are anything more than a double exposed photo of a very crude model. The "windows" are not even equidistant from each other. We put "windows" and "port holes" on our boats in the 1950's and 60's I doubt alien hardware would be duplicating our technology. Moreover, the testimony of Walters was equally bad. He claimed he was zapped and woke up after taking the photos and that the UFOs would tell him when to go outside. It just gets to be too much, even from a testimonial side, let alone the crude images...
He is clearly a very bright guy, however the fact he was on the wrong side of two, in my opinion, very CLEAR UFO hoaxes (guardian and ed walters), I take much of his conclusions with a grain of salt. I don't know how anyone can look at the Walter's photos and think they are anything more than a double exposed photo of a very crude model. The "windows" are not even equidistant from each other. We put "windows" and "port holes" on our boats in the 1950's and 60's I doubt alien hardware would be duplicating our technology. Moreover, the testimony of Walters was equally bad. He claimed he was zapped and woke up after taking the photos and that the UFOs would tell him when to go outside. It just gets to be too much, even from a testimonial side, let alone the crude images...
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
There have been many reports of UFOs with windows, portholes or just clear, see through areas.
Creepy Green Light
Paranormal Adept
Good point. I forgot all about the Guardian fraud. It's almost like he's so intelligent that he can't get out of his own way sometimes.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
My understanding with Walters and cases like The Guardian is that it is the witness testimony and circumstance that is what ultimately convinces people. Details like evidence get different treatment.
I always wonder how it was that Romanek got so much traction with his Boo video? It's rarely the evidence that sells these stories but how convincing the teller is and willing is the believer.. When you read these accounts, or hear the teller give a gripping rendition of their high strange affair, they are able to pull the audience into their world like any good storyteller can.
Yes, once you strip away all the personality you might have some lame portholes and a silly story, but that has not stopped ufology in general from carrying these stories along. Look at how far Travis Walton has got and we have very little in the way of evidence for that one. Just how many core cases are trickster in nature?
But I'm also confused by the value of photoanlysis as well. I acknowledge that it is a science but look at how many classic UFO photos were proven hoaxes after all manner of experts declared these artifacts as proof of extraterrestrial craft.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
It has better witness testimony than most abduction cases. AFAIK none of those guys recanted.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
I question that witness testimony a bit. As a doubter, I wonder just how much everyone in the backseats actually saw. It could easily have been engineered between the driver and Travis, who goes running out straight into the eye of the UFO (how many people have that as a first reaction as opposed to shock and awe - that bit has always troubled me as has the fact that those in the back are scared witless by a driver who is screaming at them about a UFO and says "let's get outta here!!!" and ramps them up on the drive, and only later returns back to find nothing). Since the event one of the men in the backseat does now claim to have been an abductee with multiple experiences/events though he hasn't really gotten a lot of traction out of his story. None of them have anything to recant at all actually given that they saw what they saw, or they think they saw what someone else said they saw, and only the driver would know any different. I wonder if in decades from now, something will spill out about this case that will reveal it to be a hoax, but in the meantime I place it in the big grey basket.
There's no real physical evidence, no confirmed secondary witnesses and all his clothing etc. was just strewn about the back of his trunk. There are still many problems with what is considered to be one of the most infamous abduction cases of all time. I especially note the unique feature of humans being seen for the first time ever on board a ship (though simultaneously another ufo agency at the time had also just received an abduction event where humans were also witnessed on board). So this one is still a head scratcher in my books. It does have fascinating details though, and Travis' script has stayed pretty tight over the years. That recent video posted where he talks about challenges to his story as "threats" I thought was pretty interesting. He also has started to slide, in a very low key way, towards the whole guru position a la Streiber where he is there to "help" people. That can be taken many ways I suppose.
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"all his clothing etc. was just strewn about the back of his trunk." ?? I thought he fell to the ground still fully clothed. Did they find his clothes in the clearing when they went back?
Also, Burnt, the others must have seen something or they wouldn't have had to be talked into returning to the scene to try to help Travis.
Also, Burnt, the others must have seen something or they wouldn't have had to be talked into returning to the scene to try to help Travis.
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Why? I'm not an avid reader of abduction accounts but I've come across some accounts that reported other humans present.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
So have I. Four decades have already passed since this event. If it was a hoax, some clear indication should have "spilled out" by now.
Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Keep in mind, that forest would have been pitch dark. Only lights would have been those from the truck headlights- not sure how the driver could have panicked the rest of the crew with a faux saucer in this scenario?
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Walton identified that one of his own personal misgivings is not taking care of his clothing - sealing and bagging it for testing, instead of throwing them into the trunk of a vehicle where they were immediately contaminated and so he never bothered to pursue that angle. This is slightly odd as he goes to great pains to pursue detailed, credible medical examination, noting weight loss etc. though that part if his narrative is also a little weird.
We don't really know who convinced who about coming back. However, if this was a hoax then only the driver needed to be in on it along with a third party to house Travis. In that scenario those in the back seats may not have seen much more than light and Travis flying through the air, possibly. But as far as convincing those in the back seat of alien craft involvement it only needs a driver to get everyone very excited about what he says he saw and this would maintain a very convincing set of witnesses, as they know no better and never will so long as they live. But this has all been discussed on other threads, specifically Walton's.
Historically, the sightings of human like aliens has a long rich history in ufology, but their combination with alien creatures is a different scenario altogether, and it is a very unique detail in Walton's narrative. How this is interpreted is another matter: proof of extra weirdness or a nice creative concoction by those who planned the narrative. Still, as far as cases go it breaks all the rules of alien abduction and that makes it either very convincing or a total fabrication.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
We know that fear is contagious, and we also know, especially those of us who routinely lured their friends to graveyards late at night, that you can create and build fear up so that very little is needed to freak people right out. For me I see this as being a very probable scenario in the Walton case. It just requires a little bit of acting especially in dark woods and the right elements. Even just an odd conversation is enough to put people on edge. I know; I used to scare people routinely.
Trajanus
Paranormal Adept
So in this scenario the driver was the key hoaxer. Why did he do it; what did he get out of it?? Travis got just about all the publicity.
Na, I recall at least one case in which humanlike aliens fought with more obvious alien types.
Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Using the dark graveyard scenario, I agree it wouldn't take much to freak people out enough to run-
I suppose one aspect for me, is the one witness (name?) of who I recently saw being interviewed- most likely in the back seat at the time, and you can tell by how emotional he becomes that he believes he saw some kind of saucer- and over the years, the fear that he might look out a window and see another one. So yeah, if it was a hoax on the crew by a few, it would have been, some how, well done.
Very well done, and daunting in practical terms. It's easy to utter the one-syllable word 'hoax' without providing at least a theory, if not actual evidence, concerning how the triggering event was produced.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
As @ufology has alluded to there has been some $$ reward over the years and spit amongst only three compatriots that's three pieces of the pie. Now of course this is total speculation of course, but it would leave all the other witnesses present as very convincing witnesses. Was there enough cash o make this worthwhile? Why do any group of people create hoaxes on their lives? There have been many over history and they have lived interesting lies for their own purposes, sometimes with no financial reward at all. People do things for all kinds of unfathomable reasons whether you are Otis T. Carr, Alicia Esteve or Steven Greer.
not sure what you mean here but many of the early imagery pieces include beautiful looking human like creatures a la Dean Martin"/ backup singers in Meier's claims. Er sorry, I mean his original singers were replaced with these TV photos by the FBI I think ole Billy said. But historically Walton's and the other case at the same time period start off the narrative combination of human looking aliens appearing alongside non-human aliens.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
I think it was pretty well covered in the Travis thread in terms of how it could be done. The sticking point really his him being hurled into the air after being struck by the light beam. I thought that was rather interesting technically to pull off, certainly not impossible but pretty darn difficult. But again if what everyone saw was being narrated and explained to them by a front seat driver then there's the possibility that all the technical elements are not really required. But audio is an issue. To have a generator out there to create enough electricity for the light show and beam strikes me as being a little improbable as that sound would be recognized unless it was masked by another audio element. So I agree it's a bit of a show to put together and would need another person there in the woods to pull off the special effects.
Looking up into the air from the back seat of these long trucks gives you what kind of angle of vision? Anyone know as I don't have one but how high up can you see from the second or third row? Certainly Travis would have been very visible so there wold have been some kind of special effect stunt pulled off to complete the light beam and jump through the air. Landing would be physically painful.
Stagger Lee, I think that anyone who has been genuinely scared, whether it was real or not, will retain their fear of that moment for the rest of their life.