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Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia

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A

Aaron LeClair

Paranormal Maven
http://www.book-of-thoth.com/article1733.html

I've seen footage of her before over the years that interested me. I'll see if I can find some vids on the net of her in action to share.
 
Michael L. said:
Her basic technique is still used by magicians today, although there have been several improvements.
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Yes, I've seen many do some of the stuff on stage. Never in a lab under controlled settings though. I'm also unaware of any magicians duplicating the physiological states.
 
Yeah... I have seen it all, but I am probably more familiar with magic than most people. Of course, there is very little reporting on most sites of Ms. Kulagina's failings under test conditions. Here is a quote from a Martin Gardner book I have run across:

Ninel Kulagina.... was carefully tested at the Bekhterev Psychoneurological Scientific Institute in Leningrad. B. Lebdev, the institute's head, and his associates summarize their findings as follows:*

"In essence, Kulagina was given the same tasks as before, but under conditions of stricter control and in accordance with a plan prepared beforehand. And this was the plan: to alternate between experiments in which the woman could possibly peek and eavesdrop with experiments where peeking would be impossible. The woman of course did not know this. As was to be expected, phenomenal ability was shown in the first instance only. In the second instance [under controls] Kulagina could distinguish neither the color nor the form...

Thus the careful checking fully exposed the sensational "miracle." There were no miracles whatever. There was ordinary hoax.
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---Martin Gardner, Science: Good, Bad and Bogus, Oxford University Press, 1983
* B Lebdev, Leningradskaya Pravda, 15 March 1964; trans. Albert Parry

Another claim I have run across several times is that Ms. Kulagina sued Pravda and won a defamation case, but I have never seen this backed up with any reference. In all seriousness, could anyone in the USSR sue Pravda? I wouldn't think it possible!
 
Also, you may want to look up a consultant of Criss Angel's named Banacek (Steve Shaw) and his involvement in a study called "Project Alpha."
 
He says Nay, they say, yay!

Dr. Zdenek Rejdak, a prominent Czech scientist connected with a Prague Military Institute, tested Kulagina personally and reported the results in Czech Pravda. He stated:
‘I visited the Kulagina family the evening of 26 February, 1968. Mr. Blazek, an editor friend was with me, also a physician, Dr. J.S. Zverev, and Dr. Sergeyev. Her husband, an engineer, was also present. Dr. Zverev gave Mrs. Kulagina a very thorough physical examination. Tests with special instruments failed to show any indication whatever of magnets or any other concealed object.
‘We checked the table thoroughly and also asked Mrs. Kulagina frequently to change position at the table. We passed a compass around her body and the chair and table with negative results. I asked her to wash her hands. After concentrating, she turned the compass needle more than ten times, then the entire compass and its case, a matchbox and some twenty matches at once. I placed a cigarette in front of her. She moved that too, at a glance. I shredded it afterwards and there was nothing inside it. In between each set of tests, she was again physically examined by the doctor.’
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Doctor Leonid L. Vasiliev, a psychologist at Leningrad University, had pioneered ESP study in Russia at the Institute for Brain Research in Leningrad, and was one of the first to test Kulagina, continuing to do so right up until his death in 1966.
Another Soviet scientist, Dr. Genady Sergeyev, a well-known physiologist working in a Leningrad military laboratory, did several years of intensive laboratory research on Kulagina, and made special studies of the electrical potentials in Kulagina’s brain. During observations he recorded exceptionally strong voltages and other unusual effects. In one series of experiments in Leningrad, recalling those of Dr. Shvetz, he and his colleagues placed undeveloped photo film in a black envelope. Incredibly, by staring at the envelope Kulagina was able to expose the film inside. If this is true, then it is particularly unfortunate that there is apparently no published account of the extraordinary experiment.
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Brian Haughton -"Author of books on Archaeology, Ancient History and the Folklore of the Supernatural"
 
The first instance is beginner's magic. The second account the author himself admits is not confirmed or published, only hearsay.

Look, I can post instances of Harry Houdini being tested under scientific conditions and still escaping his bonds. He was proclaimed by many, including Sir CA Doyle, to have paranormal powers he was not even aware of... yet everything he did was achieved by trickery. Even in the description of the first instance of Ms. Kulagina's powers, I spot problems. Why would you have her wash her hands after testing her for magnets? If you expected some magnetic dust or some such, why not before the tests? Wouldn't the tests eliminate anything like that? It is very possible that the good doctor, in fact, did not ask her to do so... merely remembers it as such and the hand washing was initiated by Ms. Kulagina.

Also, where is the citation for the Czech news article? Do not trust the uncited.
 
The problem is that for every person who tested her and said she faked it, there is a person who said she didn't.
There is no definitive proof either way.You either believe or you don't.
 
Sorry, but that's crap.

Once someone has been shown to be a fake, why should they retain any credibility? "Oh, they have real powers but this time they were feeling a bit sick so they subbed in something that cost $12.95 at Tannen's Magic Shop." Yeah, that's believable.

Uri Geller has fooled some people before, too. I suppose he really has amazing powers too, right? But he has been caught more than once using stage magic methodology. To me, that makes him a magician.

The business of the magician is to deceive people. The business of the scientist is not to root out deception. See the inherent problem in that? When, at any time, it can be shown that someone's psychic powers disappear when the methods of magicians are countered they should be entirely discounted.

I am not saying that someone who fails under strict testing should be automatically discounted. However, if they can be shown to be using magicians' methods then they should be automatically blacklisted. Once a purposeful fraud is attempted their credibility is undermined.
 
Ninel Kulagina.... was carefully tested at the Bekhterev Psychoneurological Scientific Institute in Leningrad. B. Lebdev, the institute's head, and his associates summarize their findings as follows:*

"In essence, Kulagina was given the same tasks as before, but under conditions of stricter control and in accordance with a plan prepared beforehand. And this was the plan: to alternate between experiments in which the woman could possibly peek and eavesdrop with experiments where peeking would be impossible. The woman of course did not know this. As was to be expected, phenomenal ability was shown in the first instance only. In the second instance [under controls] Kulagina could distinguish neither the color nor the form...

Thus the careful checking fully exposed the sensational "miracle." There were no miracles whatever. There was ordinary hoax.
Click to expand...

Where does it say that any trickery was FOUND. It doesn't.
Supposedly they had checked her BEFORE the first and shielded her from seeing or observing the set up of the experiment as you would expect from experienced researchers. It only says that she failed to see any color or form in the second instance, it never says anywhere that they found her to be using magicians tricks to perform the test.(magician's tricks would be easily discovered)

And regarding cited sources for material...where did you get this quote? I found it posted on the "JREF" forums by someone, quoted verbatim ..hardly verifiable or a reliable source.
The part that you did not post also said there were.. "No magicians present, of course..".

Before you can say something is crap you need to look at "both" sides of the argument instead of just using quotes from another forum to present your case!
 
The trouble with magicians is that they think that because everything that they do is fake then every thing that everybody else does has to be fake too!
Magicians, by definition are deceivers and hoaxers so why should we believe any thing they say when they won't even tell us how they perform their best tricks.They won't because they are bound to the magicians code and the "Magic Circle" club would throw them out.
 
Dr. Zdenek Rejdak, a prominent Czech scientist connected with a Prague Military Institute, tested Kulagina personally and reported the results in Czech Pravda. He stated:
‘I visited the Kulagina family the evening of 26 February, 1968. Mr. Blazek, an editor friend was with me, also a physician, Dr. J.S. Zverev, and Dr. Sergeyev. Her husband, an engineer, was also present. Dr. Zverev gave Mrs. Kulagina a very thorough physical examination. Tests with special instruments failed to show any indication whatever of magnets or any other concealed object.
‘We checked the table thoroughly and also asked Mrs. Kulagina frequently to change position at the table. We passed a compass around her body and the chair and table with negative results. I asked her to wash her hands. After concentrating, she turned the compass needle more than ten times, then the entire compass and its case, a matchbox and some twenty matches at once. I placed a cigarette in front of her. She moved that too, at a glance. I shredded it afterwards and there was nothing inside it. In between each set of tests, she was again physically examined by the doctor.’
Click to expand...

C'mon mate!! Where does it say she was asked to wash her hands AFTER the the experiment .It does NOT! It also says .."In between each set of tests, she was again physically examined by the doctor.".

It is very possible that the good doctor, in fact, did not ask her to do so... merely remembers it as such and the hand washing was initiated by Ms. Kulagina.
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It doesn't say anywhere that she initiated the hand washing either.
That's just a giant supposition on YOUR part.

You need to at least read the quotes, i provided, properly.
 
In the end duplication doesn't prove fraud, only shows the possibility of it.

Movies duplicate murder all the time. This mean all murder is an illusion?
 
She was allowed to do her demonstrations and then asked to repeat them a second time when listening/peaking was guarded against and could not repeat the successful results. That would seem to indicate that these were the methods employed to obtain success. In the magic world she is credited with invented certain magic apparatus she was caught using...

I am not a member of the Magic Circle; I am not even English. There is not really a magician's code the way television would lead you to believe, by the way. Houdini, for example, routinely exposed the methods of rivals.

As a magician, I admit that I am going to entertain you using misdirection and the unexpected. My audience buys tickets to see just that. Am I really deceiving you? You get what you pay for! Actors are all deceiving you as well. How is my background immediately less credible than someone claiming to genuinely command mystical powers?

Again, I point out to you that I am much more qualified to spot trickery using magicians' methods than the average scientist. I will even tell you the real secret of magic: convincing you, by charm, guile or deception, to suspend your disbelief is the key to success. In many ways, an examination is tailor made to facilitate this because as you circumvent each "test" the disbelief takes a blow. When a magician levitates a lovely assistant, they almost always pass a hoop around them. Why? To prove that there is nothing holding the young lady up. It complicates the illusion a great deal, but it is the push that is necessary to make the audience second guess themselves. When you are performing under "test conditions" you do not need to introduce a hoop anymore because once you circumvent the test conditions the audience is already second guessing themselves. By cheating the tests, the subject can simply use the exact method that the test was designed to confound.
 
It doesn't say she washed her hands after the experiment. It says after the examination. She was examined, found clean and then allowed to wash her hands before the experiment. What could happen then? Many things.

And I am making a supposition when I suggest that she actually initiated the hand washing. It is part of a magician's arsenal to make suggestions to their audience so that the events are remembered improperly, so I suggest that it may be possible that it was an actually initiated by Ms. Kulagina.

I read very well, thank you.
 
Paranormal Packrat,
That is an illogical argument based on a very bad analogy. The inability to duplicate results under more stringent test conditions is, in fact, a very good indication that the methods the test conditions are specifically designed to prevent are being used.
 
"In essence, Kulagina was given the same tasks as before, but under conditions of stricter control and in accordance with a plan prepared beforehand. And this was the plan: to alternate between experiments in which the woman could possibly peek and eavesdrop with experiments where peeking would be impossible. The woman of course did not know this. As was to be expected, phenomenal ability was shown in the first instance only. In the second instance [under controls] Kulagina could distinguish neither the color nor the form...
Click to expand...

So where's the bit that says that they caught her using trickery or fraud or magician's trick or any tricks for that matter. There is nothing in the report that you provided to show any fraud. None.
All they are saying there is that she..."could distinguish neither the color nor the form..." in the repeated test. This does not show trickery or fraud in any way. You are using this to support your supposition only.This evidence is supposed to support your argument!!??

‘I visited the Kulagina family the evening of 26 February, 1968. Mr. Blazek, an editor friend was with me, also a physician, Dr. J.S. Zverev, and Dr. Sergeyev. Her husband, an engineer, was also present. Dr. Zverev gave Mrs. Kulagina a very thorough physical examination. Tests with special instruments failed to show any indication whatever of magnets or any other concealed object.
‘We checked the table thoroughly and also asked Mrs. Kulagina frequently to change position at the table. We passed a compass around her body and the chair and table with negative results. I asked her to wash her hands. After concentrating, she turned the compass needle more than ten times, then the entire compass and its case, a matchbox and some twenty matches at once. I placed a cigarette in front of her. She moved that too, at a glance. I shredded it afterwards and there was nothing inside it. In between each set of tests, she was again physically examined by the doctor.’
Click to expand...

It doesn't even say .."after the examination". If you read it through, it mentions the hand washing after it mentions all of the other bits of examination that they subjected her to. it then goes on to say that she moved the compass needle ...etc. Nowhere does it say "..She was examined, found clean and then allowed to wash her hands before the experiment."

Please stop twisting the words around to suit yourself. Please read the quote in its entirety before commenting erroneously on it.

As a Magician you may use .."misdirection and the unexpected" in your stage show but that doesn't permit you to use the same methods in an argument rebuttal.

Paranormal Packrat. I agree with what you are trying to say. Just because the Russian scientist could not get her to reproduce in the second instance does not in any way infer illusion was used only that she COULD have but they couldn't PROVE it.
 
To those who are interested go to this site:

http://siivola.org/monte/papers_grouped/copyrighted/Parapsychology_&_Psi/PK_in_the_Soviet_Union.htm

While it is not a definitive study,

".....limited both by this writer's lack of expertise in the physics of energy exchange as in¬voked by Soviet investigators and also because his own opportunity for personal observation occurred on only one occasion and with only one of the two major current experimental subjects. A comparison is offered of the alleged psychokinetic effects produced by Mrs. Kulagina and Mrs. Vinogradova. The theoretical explanations are summarized along with brief mention of some of the ancillary issues involved."

...it still offers some interesting info.
ThePairOfCats. :)
 
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