May 31, 2009

[paraschtick]

Warrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

And relax

The Bible is a book of stories. Maybe a little bit of a kernel of truth within ... but still mostly stories, parables etc..

The Sumerian texts are generally OLDER than the writings in the Bible. So shouldn't they contain more truth as to ancient history than the Bible ?? (unless they're just a bunch of fictional stories also, of course).

And as for Sitchin's translations ... well they're not deemed to be reliable as Joseph Farrell has stated on a number of occasions. Dr Farrell used mainstream academic translations to write his Giza Death Star books.

So ... there may be some truth to these ancient stories but I would look to older sources like the Sumerian and Vedic texts. I think the Bible can be ignored pretty much especially that bit about talking snakes .

Oh and panspermia has nothing to do with aliens seeding the planet, by the way. Fred Hoyle is probably spinning like a mad one in his grave as we speak.

Anywaay ... Marzulli's schtick is rather mad as a bag of snakes ... and in the end rather tiring. I was certainly rather tired ... rather ... about 1/2 an hour in.

A very tired (para)schtick

ps have started a thread on the great Monsieur Mangetout in another part of the forum

 

[David Biedny]

Swatcher,

I recently returned to these forums, for the simple reason that I seem to sometimes have some masochistic tendencies.

In listening to the drivel being spewed by Marzulli, I just didn't know what to do but push back against his Christian verbal diarreah attack. Sorry, in my life I've been very wary of all organized religion and folks who push religious beliefs of any sort - it's definitely a prejudice of mine, I tend to think more along the lines of agnosticism than anything else. Marzulli did not seem familiar with some basic lines of logic, it's all about indoctrination and simplistic religious brainswashing for him, standing on the shaky foundation of fiction and fairy tales. I know, I'm being harsh, but as I get older, I seem to be losing my patience for bullshit, and in my opinion, just about everything that fell out of Marzulli's maw was crap. If you want to understand where I'm coming from, know that this fellow is a personal hero of mine:


So yeah, perhaps my ego sometimes asserts itself, it sorta has to for me to have the fortitude to slog through some of this stuff every week. 3.5 years, we haven't missed a single week yet, do the math. I have indeed had a lot of paranormal experiences in my life, the one thing I do not and have never done is claim that I have an actual understanding of the reality of what's happened to me. I'm open to hearing new ideas and opinions, but when someone says that have THE ANSWERS™, you better believe I'm gonna give them a bit of a hard time. That's what I do, many appreciate it, some don't, and them's the shakes.

dB

 

[UBERDOINK]

Great guest!!! Too bad he wasn't great at articulating that world view :redface:

but if you ever study what he has to say from a more calculated, sober perspective, and more authoritative sources it is quite fasinating and does seem to answer quite a few questions.

Very cool having him on... even though you are mind-numbed-liberal-biased-elitists you treated him very fairly so Kudos!

I say that with all love!!!! since I am a faithful listener!

 

[Schuyler]

reminds me of an aphorism common in seminaries: "The New Testament, in which God is in a much better mood."

 

[Gareth]

haha - nice signature Schuyler.

David thanks posting that Pat Condell vid. I first heard of him last year while browsing Mac Tonnies' blog, and the guy is amazing. He hits every single point and doesn't apologise for it.

But for some reason I keep forgetting about him and never look him up. Happy to be reminded.

 

[Schuyler]

haha - nice signature Schuyler.

Started on the thread about the anti-grav. 'nother guy started it. Can't find it right now. About to shut down for the night. I think it's going viral! We'll all have the same sig in a matter of days. C'mon everyone! Support Gareth!

 

[AnnetteMarie]

that video is fantastic. he makes a much nicer and more logical - as well as kinder - case against religion than Dawkins. yet another reason to give Bernard Haisch's book a good read.
thank God my God is not the one Condell is talking about

 

[UBERDOINK]

That video is sooooo uninformed, sooooo biased his data is just plain wrong you can tell hes talking without studying the subject matter, so it's easy to knock down a giant "paper dragon" argument than the real thing.

I have no problem with atheists, but mostly, they have HORRIBLE logical para dimes that argue against cartoon versions of murky understanding of theology and what the text's actually say.

Good try, lots of bluster against a very well said (I think the accent helps ) false dichotomy type of argument that isn't based in any form of religious reality.

But I suppose he understands it better than the writers themselves and his totally wrong interpetation is more true than thousands of years of scholarly texts... he's an atheist so of course he's smarter, without even having to study!

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

...er, Uberdoink, for a deeply scholarly and masterful dissection of religion try reading Christopher Hitchens book, "God is Not Great".
(There's a clue in the title about Hitchens conclusions)

 

[inuk2600]

Uberdoink, here's a cartoon version for you...



Do you really think the creator (if it exists, whatever it is) would put the onus on us (basically ignorant little children in the grand sense) to get the ultimate truth right? When this one idea determines for you the most dire and eternal consequence? Because this is what every major religion expects from us. Would He really leave such an important condition up to us personally? For us westerners that have been exposed to, or grew up under the christian faith, can we imagine a young boy who is growing up in the middle east under the teachings of Muhammad that believes his truth is the only way to eternal life. He may have heard, contemplated and rejected the christian doctrine. It happens. The christian God put the onus on this boy to get it right and the boy failed. See what the bible says about that. Now from the boys religious perspective we failed to get it right. See what the Qur'an says about that. In both cases the conditions apply to all mankind.

All one needs to do to start peeling the layers from the psychological onion of religion is to examine what we believe and ask the question, do I have it right? All those other people are wrong but they believe they have it right just like I do. Did I get it right because I'm smarter than them? Am I luckier? More blessed perhaps? Maybe they're more gullible? Maybe it doesn't matter that they got it wrong because they're less human or God just doesn't care about them perhaps? When you factor in all religions, faiths, beliefs, you start to recognize that it's a crap shoot. I mean what are the chances that I'm the one with the truth?

Vanishingly small.

 

[conor]

Why does everybody get so reactionary when it comes to the belief or lack of in God. Polarisation - the scurge of the modern world, I tells ya

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

Well, my "reactionary" behaviour (as you call it) against religion comes from the tender, loving care I received at the hands of Roman Catholic "sisters" and "brothers" during my school years. That and the fact that after having grown up, I made use of what cognitive abilities I have and saw that it was time to put aside childish things.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

Personally, I think because UFOs and accounts of abductions seem to deny conventional "laws" it would be foolish to immediately exclude the esoteric when looking into the phenomenon. Sure, we all know religion has done some crazy stuff throughout history, but that is like anything you include flawed man in. A close mind will never find the answer. That's just my opinion of course, which has been wrong before... once or twice.

 

[swatcher]

David,

I'm excited that you have replied to my post. I thank you for that - I have told you in the past that it takes a Mensch to do that ;-)

I will view your video when time permits.

All the best.

 

[swatcher]

Schuyler,

screaming is good for you. It releases a lot of tension LOL.

All the best.

 

[Schuyler]

Very cool having him on... even though you are mind-numbed-liberal-biased-elitists you treated him very fairly so Kudos!

BAD mistake, Uberdoink. You are falling into the same thing you accuse everyone else of doing--making assumptions and reacting from some sort of political perspective. I assume from my comments critical of this numb-nuts that you would put me into the same category of mind-numbed-liberal-biased-elitists. Yet you'd be quite wrong. To out myself: I am a conservative and a lifetime member of the NRA. I attended the Republican convention last year. Enough for you?

It's not that there is nothing to be gained from studying theology. I think there are some compelling hints as to the structure of reality buried within it. I'll bet you I've read and digested more scholarly works on the life of Jesus and Christianity than you have. Yet the video above I consider to be right on. Christianity and other religions have been responsible for the death and mayhem of billions of people. I quite realize conquering nations carry their gods along with them into battle, but this is more than that. These deaths are the result of religious belief and dogma. People are killed because they are heathens and people are killed within their own belief because some other idiots believe they displeased god. It's estimated over a million women were burned and tortured for witchcraft because they acted as midwives. The Inquisition is notorious. It's not so much that Christianity has 'matured.' It's simply that Christianity is no longer in charge of western civilization. You can thank Henry VIII for that. Henry II wanted to do the same thing, but it took a few hundred more years to shake off the yoke of papal tyranny. Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity, a reaction to it. And when Islam gets in charge, it acts very much like Christianity did 600 years ago. At least the Romans were more honest about it. They didn't kill in the name of their gods; they just killed for power and territory.

It's not that this numb nuts guest is talking from a Christian perspective that is the issue. You could make a case using some of his anecdotal material. It's that he does a terrible job of using his own frame of reference to make his points. The nephilim mating with earth women caused the flood? Puhlease! It takes ritual human sacrifice to open a porthole between dimensions? Well, 8 million Jews didn't do it for the Nazis. His whole argument is all over the map. Even if you accept the idea that some ancient stories may reflect 'alien contacts' and are couched in ancient language, his arguments still make no logical sense. he is internally inconsistent. He mixes up cause and effect. He has no sense of time.

In other words, a sober Christian could do a much better job discussing these issues. There is a much better case to be made than presented by this guest. The fact that he is so convinced his own interpretation is 100% correct just makes it worse.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

It's not that there is nothing to be gained from studying theology. I think there are some compelling hints as to the structure of reality buried within it. I'll bet you I've read and digested more scholarly works on the life of Jesus and Christianity than you have. Yet the video above I consider to be right on. Christianity and other religions have been responsible for the death and mayhem of billions of people. I quite realize conquering nations carry their gods along with them into battle, but this is more than that. These deaths are the result of religious belief and dogma. People are killed because they are heathens and people are killed within their own belief because some other idiots believe they displeased god. It's estimated over a million women were burned and tortured for witchcraft because they acted as midwives. The Inquisition is notorious. It's not so much that Christianity has 'matured.' It's simply that Christianity is no longer in charge of western civilization. You can thank Henry VIII for that. Henry II wanted to do the same thing, but it took a few hundred more years to shake off the yoke of papal tyranny. Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity, a reaction to it. And when Islam gets in charge, it acts very much like Christianity did 600 years ago. At least the Romans were more honest about it. They didn't kill in the name of their gods; they just killed for power and territory.

Personally, I feel that if it is not religion, we would find some other reason to kill each other. Organized religion is obviously another way to control the masses and has been utilized to stir up people into war, but it would happen regardless... they would just find some other reason to do it.

The nephilim mating with earth women caused the flood? Puhlease!

If you actually read carefully, and completely the story of the flood, it does appear that the flood was deemed a cleansing of the bloodlines. It's unclear who the nephilim were, but in the writings it does reference bringing about a flood to cleanse the bloodlines and Noah and his family were spared due to the fact they hadn't interbred. That's why one of my fav lines of a song is by a band named S*M*A*S*H... "When you're captain of the ship, it ain't hard for you to distinguish that Noah's ark was a ship of lies, the first form of apartheid."

It takes ritual human sacrifice to open a porthole between dimensions? Well, 8 million Jews didn't do it for the Nazis. His whole argument is all over the map. Even if you accept the idea that some ancient stories may reflect 'alien contacts' and are couched in ancient language, his arguments still make no logical sense.

I'm not saying blood sacrifice DOES open a portal or whatever, but there is something in the idea that if someone DOES believe it, they very well may try it. Also, it's tough to say if it did or didn't work for the Nazis as how would we know? Human sacrifice has been used throughout time though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was still being utilized whether it brought about the desired outcome or not.

On a side note, it wasn't just the Jews who were sent off to camps and killed... the Ukrainians were too. Sorry, as a Ukrainian I'm horrified how they are always ignored in the accounts of the concentration camps.

What do you think of Aliester Crowely? Do you think he really did make contact with "Lam" as he said and drew about? I'm up in the air over it, but wonder if it could be related if true.

His whole argument is all over the map. Even if you accept the idea that some ancient stories may reflect 'alien contacts' and are couched in ancient language, his arguments still make no logical sense. he is internally inconsistent. He mixes up cause and effect. He has no sense of time.

I actually think this is one of the poorer interviews I have heard him in. I am pretty sure considering I could sense it just while listening, the tension that obviously existed while the Paracast crew tried to be patient and keep their obvious theological differences in check through the interview and Marzuli's obvious borderline fanaticism and sense of the disbelief of the interviewers hindered him in better relaying his thoughts. I am obviously just guessing on this, but most other interviews I have heard he is much more linear in his thinking and explanation of his theory and the description of why he thinks what he does. He also better listed the evidence he had that supported his claims. Because of this, I have a hard time writing him off so easily, even if I may not agree with everything he has to say.

In other words, a sober Christian could do a much better job discussing these issues. There is a much better case to be made than presented by this guest. The fact that he is so convinced his own interpretation is 100% correct just makes it worse.

Well, I think you'll find most people of one faith or another fall prey to this. It's the nature of religion.

Anyway, sorry... don't mean to butt into a conversation or anything.

 

[marmer]

I heard a lot of things that brought to mind Nick Pope's "Interesting if true." I certainly think the whole gods-or-angels-as-ET's/extra-dimensionals-whatever is worth examining. Treating the Old Testament as just another old historical text is something that I'm kinda surprised isn't done more often. And it's not by a long shot the first time I've heard of the name of Jesus being invoked to put a fast stop to paranormal or psychic nastiness. I think Marzulli knew he wasn't speaking to a group of Christian believers and that threw him off his game a little. But his trying to bait David into a yes or no answer and make value judgements about the phenomenon, well, that was painful. Probably a lot more so to David. After David's final long speech, he didn't say a lot more, probably because he was biting on a bullet or something. With regard to the prophecy being fulfilled because of the creation of Israel and the likelihood of a major war starting in the Middle East, I'd be willing to bet that any reasonably educated and aware person could have seen that coming by about 1900 or so given the expulsion of Jews from Eastern Europe and the weakening of the Ottoman Empire. We mustn't forget that the story of the nation of Israel really begins after World War I, not World War II.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

With regard to the prophecy being fulfilled because of the creation of Israel and the likelihood of a major war starting in the Middle East, I'd be willing to bet that any reasonably educated and aware person could have seen that coming by about 1900 or so given the expulsion of Jews from Eastern Europe and the weakening of the Ottoman Empire. We mustn't forget that the story of the nation of Israel really begins after World War I, not World War II.

I agree with that, but keep in mind that the prophesy he was referring to is believed to be thousands of years old. With that in mind though, I think, especially with a clear understanding of the events that brought about the formation of Israel, that it isn't inconceivable that people with enough power can knowingly create the scenarios that can later be pointed to as "fulfilled prophesy."

 

[fencejumper]

Its interesting to hear the different perspectives on this interview. I don't blame folks for putting Marzulli in the "asshat" category. Most of the points against him are valid so I won't refute them.

That said, I still found value in the interview. I look at these topics as thought experiments. His message was flawed, but I'm OK with taking away "what if demonic stories can shed light on modern day UFO encounters?" or "what if aliens spawned ancient myths?", etc. For me those are interesting subjects even if unprovable.

In my opinion his folly was in the presentation. I posed the above as questions, he states them as facts and attempts to provide evidence. It's too bad he can't adjust his style of communication. If his ideas were in the spirit of debate rather than selling a belief system I think they would be more well received.

Lastly, on a lighthearted note... a rockin song that is very pertinent to this thread. The scandalous Bible quotes are a bonus!

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