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June 24, 2018 — Loren Coleman with J. Randall Murphy

Discussion in 'Talk About the Show' started by Gene Steinberg, Jun 24, 2018.



  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Forum Super Hero Staff Member

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    Mysterious deaths that come in clusters, Bigfoot and other Fortean phenomena.

    All fascinating journeys through the world of the strange and unknown.

    J. Randall Murphy returned as guest cohost, and he also joined me for this weekend's After The Paracast, an exclusive feature of The Paracast+.

    For more information about our premium subscription service, please visit: Introducing The Paracast+ | The Paracast — The Gold Standard of Paranormal Radio
     
  2. wwkirk

    wwkirk Paranormal Adept

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    Loren Coleman is an interesting guy. His research into suicides is legit. Also, I was impressed by his skepticism regarding cryptids.
     
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  3. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    I had some positive things to say on the show, but here are my two points of concern: I wasn't all that impressed by his response to my question on the influence of behavior modifying pharmaceuticals in suicides and school shootings. Trivializing that issue by comparing it to the controversy over comic books and video games isn't rational counterpoint. It also makes no difference what political party draws our attention to the issue either. Those are both strawman arguments ( counterpoint that substitutes an irrelevant analogy for the issue at hand ). The issue is legitimate regardless of who brings it up or if there's a separate political agenda attached to it. It deserves serious study ( IMO ), and others seems to agree: School Shootings: Mental Health Watchdog Says Psychotropic Drug Use by School Shooters Merits Federal Investigation

    One of several videos. There are a bunch of papers too.

    Yes he had a bit more up his sleeve than I thought. But I still remain unconvinced on the Patterson film. Even with the confessions of the guy wearing the suit, and the tailor who made it, he's sticking to the old "you can see muscle movement in the fur" bit, when there's no way to verify that. Let's face it, nobody is seeing any muscle. They're just seeing a furry covering that's moving in a way that some people interpret as muscle, while others like yours truly still just see a guy in a suit. Then there's all the other circumstantial evidence. Even if I were a die-hard believer I'd be having serious doubts. But Coleman, despite his veneer of skepticism, appears to remain convinced that it's genuine. It's one thing to believe the phenomena is real, and another to be taken in by an obvious hoax ( IMO ).

    The Guy Who Made The Suit Explains


     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer Paranormal Adept

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    I didn’t know anything about Loren Coleman but this gave me a few things to think about. His views and mine seem to line up, at least initially. Difference is he has been out in the real world looking for himself and to me this is a pastime. His comments about environmental conditions around Loch Ness in particular got me interested and I’ll have to go look for some of the material he’s published. I guess I’m late to the party but at least I made it.

    I don’t know what exactly constitutes a bona fide researcher or subject matter expert in this arena but a working psychologist with what sounds like a very pragmatic approach to the Weird sounds ….. refreshing.

    I find synchronicities fascinating and love it when an obvious one pops up but make a point not to go too far out on a limb to connect the dots and find great significance. They are a bit like horoscopes in that regard; fun and sometimes surprising but otherwise useless. That is until I heard Loren. In the context of suicide prevention then use whatever works. Never even occurred to me. Yes, it does seem to be an immediate, impulsive act. Regarding end of life I say absolutely yes - from direct personal experience we seem to know. We readily accept that our old dogs and cats know so this isn’t a stretch to apply to humans. Don’t think it’s paranormal, just plain old normal even if disturbing.

    If we carry certain characteristics then no doubt at some point in our evolution it developed from necessity. It may have been rendered irrelevant like an appendix but had a purpose. I think that our belief in some sort of afterlife is hardwired right in to our psyche for a specific purpose, and the only purpose evolution concerns itself with is survival. As Randall mentioned scientific proof of life after death could result in unintended consequences. It works both ways. Suppose it were proven unequivocally that absolutely nothing happens. There would be mass killings on a scale that make anything that’s happened recently pale by comparison. No need to consider the consequences. It might also stop some of those who think they are going to their great reward after they blow up a market full of infidels.

    Maybe the purpose of some thread of belief, or doubts, or however you would like to put it in a greater whole is what was necessary to allow our remote ancestors to function in social groups and ultimately thrive. Necessary social wiring burned right into our motherboards. Sociopaths lack it and we separate them from our communities out of necessity. Sometimes we fail to which is how someone like Ted Bundy was so successful. Oh, and as an interesting non-sequitur Ted Bundy once had a job answering the phone for a suicide prevention hotline.

    Statistics. The devil’s always in the details. On this episode I heard that even among people who generally agree with each other regarding their utility there was discussion about exactly where to set thresholds i.e. hoax vs prank. This is how you can use statistics to make any point you would like. With large enough statistical samples variations in personal interpretation are evened out and we can now examine samples of unprecedented size; big data. I think that Loren was right suggesting that pointing to specifics like comic books, video games, and the profusion of pharmaceuticals of questionable necessity provide too simplistic an explanation for the violence we’ve seen. I can’t help but think that it is a combination of larger factors like the overall size of the human population and our increased longevity that are larger contributors. I don’t think we have a broad enough perspective. It is easier to see when we apply the same logic to animal populations; species allowed to grow unchecked succumb to all sorts of nastiness which are in effect self-corrections. Far more difficult to interpret for humans but in a very general way I think that’s at the root of a lot of what we have seen. I would be genuinely interested in what Loren might have to say about that if someone could ask him.
     
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  5. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    I'd say there's room to agree that simply blaming the whole school violence phenomenon on pharmaceuticals is too simplistic, while at the same time recognizing that it may be a significant contributing factor that deserves further study. But simply dismissing it as an analogy to comic books or writing it off as political propaganda? Are you sure that's the most responsible approach?
    That's a good question for the Question Bank, maybe certain other guests too. The same sort of thoughts have crossed my mind. Whenever we see a species that is dependent on limited resources, we tend to see competition for those resources, and peaceful resolutions appear to be rare. Come to think of it, humans are the only species I can think of that is able to formulate peaceful solutions to crises around resources, and even we're not so good at it. So your're line of reasoning seems to have some foundation in animal behavior, and after all, humans are animals too, even if we don't like to think of ourselves as such.

    Another example I think is an almost perfect manifestation of discord between our biological and technological evolution is road rage. When confronted with danger the biological fight or flight response is automatic, but being strapped into a seat belt inside a car in a traffic jam provides no outlet to either escape or fight, so the tension increases until someone blows their top.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  6. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer Paranormal Adept

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    We are collectively awash in pharmaceuticals, not just the kids. Hell they direct market them to consumers so we can run to our doctors with self-diagnosis. Definitely part of it but there are other contributing factors. No I don’t think it should be dismissed out of hand but from the little I’ve heard about Loren’s professional experience he has reasons for his opinions. I believe that leaded gasoline was considered a factor in mental health issues and outbreaks of violence and we have since legislated that away. A direct link would have to be made between specific drugs and incidents and considering the money and influence behind the pharmaceutical lobby it would have to be unequivocal.

    I also think that plain old Crazy is vastly underrated and to never underestimate the power of plain old Stupid. I think a case could be made that the immediacy of communication is a factor behind many things but that’s getting off on a tangent.

    I was thinking about deer tags. The Department of Environmental Conservation (or similar entity in your area) conducts a thorough study annually to determine how many of what types will be issued to cull the population. Absolutely necessary although some just can’t stand the thought of it. In some cases people refuse to address it and decide to intervene with feeders and so forth, and don’t consider the downstream effects of the feel-good choice. Unintended consequences.

    God, that sounds unsettling to me when we start talking about people but I just wanted to draw the analogy. We have a population which is much larger and lives longer than ever due to artificial means. Nature will provide balance where necessary and I kind of wonder if that’s why we see some of the things that we do. Complex systems tend to have complex problems.

    Oh – and yeah, it was Bob in the suit. I have seen versions of that before on TV but got a real kick out of that video, so thanks. Sometimes things are just what they appear to be. I have been following that story for decades and one day for me it just jumped the shark and now all I see is Bob.
    upload_2018-6-27_8-0-20.png
    As for cryptids in general, yeah why not? It's fun and largely harmless. We'll come to the conclusion that it's all make believe and then one day somebody will shoot one, or a plesiosaur will choke on a wad of plastic bottles and wash ashore somewhere.
     
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  7. Hollywood Tomfortas

    Hollywood Tomfortas Paranormal Adept

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    Well, Randall @USI Calgary, you may have scored some points against Loren with your meta-analysis of pharmaceuticals and school violence, but Loren really “opened a can o’ whup-ass” on you in the matter of the uncanny synchro-mystical anniversary phenomenon of the date of September 27 and its significance in the lives of both T.E. “Lawrence of Arabia” and John Mack.

    From Loren’s Twilight Language (and Copycat Effect) blog:

    Twilight Language: John Mack, Lawrence of Arabia, and September 27th

    When I appeared on Gene Steinberg's The Paracast on June 24, 2018, I was challenged by his cohost J. Randall Murphy, a Canadian ufologist, throughout the program. As I was talking about the anniversary syndrome, and the special link of the date June 24th to ufologists' deaths, Murphy contested the death date of John Mack as merely having occurred at random. He felt this was true because it was allegedly an accidental incident.

    I, of course, said that was possible. After all, I had not brought up Mack's death, and did not support Mack's date of death as evidence of anything. But I was curious to dig a bit deeper to analyze what might be one view behind that specific life event for John Mack. Here are some thoughts on the question of John Mack's demise. It is a stream-of-consciousness exploration to connect some dots. But it is not a thesis to explain why, exactly, Dr. Mack died when he did. I generally am comfortable saying "I don't know when asked these sorts of questions."
     
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  8. USI Calgary

    USI Calgary J. Randall Murphy Staff Member

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    Thanks for that. It's all fine. My question was only in the spirit of exploring the exceptions to the pattern so as to help determine if there really is a pattern, or if it's just a collection of examples that in reality aren't any more odd than any other random set of examples. In the case of Mack, it seems like he'd be a prime candidate for the pattern, yet he doesn't seem to fit. So it seems reasonable to ask, "Why doesn't Mack fit the pattern?" Maybe Coleman knew something I didn't. It seemed to be worth exploring. So I'm glad Coleman was inspired to do a little more digging.

    Probably the most curious thing for me, given that Coleman is into strange deaths and suicides, is that he's never heard of the Marconi deaths ( often referred to as the Marconi Murders ). Even for me, that set of deaths is more than sheer coincidence, plus it has connections to SDI, which has connections to ufology via the theory that SDI was actually part of a planetary defense program, and not simply something to keep the Russians at bay. I replied to his blog post ( which I found interesting ) and included the link to the list of deaths associated with SDI ( also below ).

    BTW: I managed to survive June 24, 2018 just fine, and haven't seen any noticeable spike in the deaths of paranormal or UFO investigators on that day ( thankfully ).

    ► Here's a link to my post on the SDI Bennewitz Connection from the show Michael Allen and I were on back in March: March 25, 2018 — Michael Allen with J. Randall Murphy
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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