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January 21, 2018 — Greg Bishop and Don Ecker


Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Putting Greg Bishop and Don Ecker into the same virtual room made for a fascinating episode about speculation on UFO reality and other subjects.

While Greg had to show up for jury duty the next day, Don turned up on After The Paracast this weekend to present his unvarnished views about Roswell and possible reverse engineered alien technology.

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A minor nitpick, but I thought the purpose of the program was to “…..ascertain capability and intent of these phenomena for the benefit of the armed forces and the nation” not necessarily to identify them as Don mentioned. I think it’s an important distinction. Yes everyone involved can’t help but think about the thousand pound gorilla in the room but as for us earthlings the U.S. doesn’t have sole claim to exotic technology. In terms of justifying funding the language would have to be precise. I think the revelation of the program is amazing in and of itself. It’s a case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. At least we know something’s been done for real instead of having to hash through the same old stories. As to what it was and what might be going on now – fresh fuel for speculation. Leslie Kean says more info will be coming but I’m not holding my breath for it. We’ll see.

Also, when I hear about events that date back decades I lose interest. It’s not that I discount them but they have been beaten like a rented mule and can’t see how retelling them adds to the debate. In fact, repeatedly retelling them probably tends to connect otherwise unrelated events and eventually create an interesting but questionable picture.

OK – an observation and my hands are up in the air – not trying to start a fire here (please) but having heard Don and Walter it made me wonder exactly what the credentials of a UFO researcher might actually be? A background in military intelligence, counterintelligence, cryptography and so forth means skills intended to study human behavior and communication. How directly relevant is that to this phenomenon? It sounds impressive but I can’t help but wonder.

Aeronautical engineers and metallurgists seem to be more likely candidates to be the recipients of whatever data came from this program.
 
OK – an observation and my hands are up in the air – not trying to start a fire here (please) but having heard Don and Walter it made me wonder exactly what the credentials of a UFO researcher might actually be? A background in military intelligence, counterintelligence, cryptography and so forth means skills intended to study human behavior and communication. How directly relevant is that to this phenomenon? It sounds impressive but I can’t help but wonder.

Aeronautical engineers and metallurgists seem to be more likely candidates to be the recipients of whatever data came from this program.
That’s an interesting point. In broad strokes, the prevailing model in recent decades has taken two basic forms; the ufo investigator, akin to an unofficial criminal investigator - interview the witness, check out any kind of physical trace evidence, write a report, and then file it somewhere. And the ufo researcher, who looks at those reports collectively and then writes books and discusses their ideas about the phenomenon. And sometimes people do both. Then once in a blue moon a trained specialist chips in with some kind of forensic analysis, like Bruce Maccabee or Paul Hill.

That model’s fine if you just want to hear about what people are experiencing. I suppose it’s essentially a form of journalism. And the qualifications required for it are pretty modest really; any bright person with a pleasant enough social disposition can conduct a decent ufo investigation in most cases. But the trace evidence cases can easily get all boogered up right off the bat without a forensics specialist on the scene, which seems to pretty much never happen. And most ufo researchers are basically writing historical books and articles, which frankly anyone can do if they do the homework.

But honestly none of this is the right way to actually make progress understanding a subject. Which is why this field has been treading water for seven decades with people telling stories and then debating the meaning of it all.

The only reliable method for making any real progress in understanding a subject is the scientific method. And withholding that from the public is how this whole subject has been very effectively covered up and discredited for decades. Because it takes a lot of money, and all kinds of equipment and instrumentation, and teams of trained scientists, to actually get to the bottom of something like this. We’d need to either design and deploy a network of satellite observatories to collect evidence of intrusions into our airspace from above – similar to how astronomers collect evidence about other kinds of exotic phenomena like quasars or gamma ray bursts – or we’d need access to the military’s excellent existing network of satellites – and frankly I can’t see them agreeing to share any of that stuff, even though we paid for all of it.

A proper scientific investigation would also require specialized instrumentation aboard a number of high-performance jets all over the country, so we could gather precision data with an aerial rapid-response network. As I understand it, the military had a program (or many such programs) like that back in the 50s and/or 60s, but of course we never got to see any of the data they collected. And really in this respect, we would absolutely need their cooperation for this kind of effort – because it would be crazy to try to set up an independent network of jet interceptors and military pilots to fly them, when the Air Force already has all of that stuff ready to go 24/7.

The really infuriating thing is that the military has to have done all of this stuff already. In fact we now know that even the drastically underfunded Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program conducted scientific investigations and generated dozens of reports on this subject, with whatever limited access they had to the kinds of resources that would be required. I think we have the right to demand the release of those reports. Because we’ve already heard Luis Elizondo state that the craft they studied do not belong to the inventories of any country on Earth, so it clearly falls outside of terrestrial military jurisdiction. What they’re doing is akin to withholding evidence of quasars or gravitational waves – we have a right to know about what’s going on in this cosmos, whether it’s mundane physical phenomena, or alien physical phenomena.

Anyway – it’s easy to see why so many people clamor for disclosure from the government/military system. We’re not equipped to conduct the kind of scientific investigation that this subject requires, and they’ve already done it anyway. So it seems a whole lot more reasonable to just demand that they release their reports on this subject, than it would be to try to get our politicians to pony up $100M/year to fund a new program to repeat all of the work that the military has already done on this.

As I see it, those are the only two viable options on the table. Because until one of those two things happens, all we can do is drive each other nuts by talking in circles about whether alien technology is operating in our skies from time to time, or whether some inscrutable mystical phenomenon is only making us think that alien technology is operating in our skies from time to time, and frankly that whole debate makes me want to throttle people.
 
I liked this show. Bishop & Ecker are both interesting guests with interesting personalities. The ATP session with Don is good too. He talks about a witness to Roswell he happened across that perhaps a lot of people don't know about. Bishop's reflections on his High School debating experience helps to illuminate the motivation behind what can otherwise come across at times as a seemingly cynical or dismissive. I've gotten the same flak myself on more than one occasion. If I understand him correctly, he's saying let's read a little deeper and think a little harder without making unfounded conclusions. I totally get that.

I would however caution not to make it sound like everybody else in the world doesn't have any critical thinking skills I find that most people interested in ufology put at least a measure of thought into the subject, and those who have put a lot of thought into it have pretty good reasons for thinking that the ETH is the leading theory for UFOs ( theory - in a casual sense ), and again, let's not forget that the ETH is a class of theories. It's not just a single theory. It includes, lunar, interplanetary, interstellar, space nomads, other universes, other time lines ( basically the same as other universes ), and other dimensions ( also basically the same as other universes ).
 
OK – an observation and my hands are up in the air – not trying to start a fire here (please) but having heard Don and Walter it made me wonder exactly what the credentials of a UFO researcher might actually be?

On a microscale, It all depends, such as with MUFON, a fee is paid, an online course is taken & shazam, you’re an official MUFON field investigator. In the realization that years are taken to become a proficient detective, one is of the opinion that most so-called investigator’s training is woefully inadequate. Additionally, since there is rarely (if ever) physical evidence, the experiencer’s narrative is critical. That is why in a perfect world training in psychology would be necessary.

Just how many cases are there where investigators have inadvertently led witnesses to conclude that what they saw was some otherworldly object?

Such as with Christopher Mellon presenting to an audience with a Mylar party balloon in the background.
 
On a microscale, It all depends, such as with MUFON, a fee is paid, an online course is taken & shazam, you’re an official MUFON field investigator. In the realization that years are taken to become a proficient detective, one is of the opinion that most so-called investigator’s training is woefully inadequate. Additionally, since there is rarely (if ever) physical evidence, the experiencer’s narrative is critical. That is why in a perfect world training in psychology would be necessary. Just how many cases are there where investigators have inadvertently led witnesses to conclude that what they saw was some otherworldly object? Such as with Christopher Mellon presenting to an audience with a Mylar party balloon in the background.

The MUFON course is actually better than nothing. It at least establishes some level of criteria for qualifications. USI had a distance learning course once too, and even a pro detective has to start someplace. Yes it would be better if there was a respectable society to oversee the field. I tried to get that going with USI. Nobody is interested. They all want to protect their own turf rather than cooperate for the common good. So now there's a lot of redundancy and not much sense of unity. Imagine if all the resources that have been put into the hundreds or thousands of UFO websites could have been focused on a single really good one. It could have research staff, a field team, and constant high quality updates.

That being said, I still have to agree with you. Wasn't it MUFON's Margie Kay who was insisting that Arcturus was a UFO, even though the telescope pointed at it had a locator that said it was aimed straight at Arcturus? The Mellon balloon thing has been written off as "illustrative" rather than being an actual claim. But I still think that more care needs to be taken with that sort of portrayal. It's misleading, or at the very least leading.
 
Do you mean this Margie Kay, Bio , as one call does it all, for there are no ghosts too big or small.
The variety of services rendered is practically endless.
However, after Margie's spiel; "Note: Margie is not a trained health professional. This is for entertainment only." Obviously, Margie wanted to cover her assets in case of a failed diagnosis leading to a disaster such as, dismemberment, or death. Her malpractice insurance rate must be up there in fluttering with the spirits.
Yes, you are correct as special Kay is just one of many reasons MUFON should not be relied upon for serious research.

And no, "P-Scan" in not an adopted urology term.
"Margie has become extremely proficient at seeing inside the body, which she calls a "P-Scan," (psychic scan). She does intuitive medical diagnosis and is able to see inflammation, infection, disease, missing organs (from surgery), broken bones, implants, and more; even on a microscopic level.":eek:
 
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OK – an observation and my hands are up in the air – not trying to start a fire here (please) but having heard Don and Walter it made me wonder exactly what the credentials of a UFO researcher might actually be? A background in military intelligence, counterintelligence, cryptography and so forth means skills intended to study human behavior and communication. How directly relevant is that to this phenomenon? It sounds impressive but I can’t help but wonder.

Aeronautical engineers and metallurgists seem to be more likely candidates to be the recipients of whatever data came from this program.

There are no qualifications. Not that there should be. You just try to ignore the huge signal to noise ratio if you're trying to learn anything useful.
 
Neither Don nor I have ever said nor implied that our backgrounds are required for the UFO research field. Different people have different skills that lend to it. That he and I have both been law enforcement/nat'l security investigators and have both served military duty just happen to provide our particular skills. That I worked in intel and counterintel and counterespionage provided me with particular skills. But at no time have I nor Don ever said these skills were required of UFO investigators. Our defense of our reputations is in response to instances of only the disrespectful attacks on our reputations and credentials but is in no way implying that we think only guys like us can investigate UFOs. That would be ridiculous.

Be observant, pay attention to detail, don't let personal theories lead the observations. Those are the main qualifications, I think. A friggin' donutmaker could possess those skills in abundance.

:)
 
There are no qualifications. Not that there should be. You just try to ignore the huge signal to noise ratio if you're trying to learn anything useful.

I think there is a collection of skill-sets and knowledge foundations that are useful, but "UFOs" themselves, are simply not fleshed out enough. Therefore, to try and create qualifications for something that isn't well understood could be counter productive. It would be like someone trying to write a comprehensive job description without knowing anything about the job! People need to remember that UFOs are not crop yields, they cannot be measured in a lab. By nature, "UFOs" are oddities, their appearances...rare. This is my big issue with those whose only alter is that of the scientific method. It is very useful for sure, but it really excels when something is predictable and reproducible. Unfortunately those are two variables that seem to escape this phenomena. Now perhaps if the same object routinely appeared in the same place, at the same time, it could be properly studied. But, that's not we are dealing with here. That is not to say the scientific method does not have a place at the table, because it obviously does, however, it is usually on the back-end, i.e., trying to use science to examine some aspect of an already rare and strange event. This is tough, but doable. Moreover, if we are going to consider things like the ETH or even "the Trickster" who is to say these "beings" are not purposely self-concealing with stop-gaps in place to mislead the scientific method or make it inapplicable. Perhaps the "science" the phenomena gives off cannot even be trusted (the trickster), I think that needs to be considered. There could be blatant misdirection, in fact, I think if this reality is non-human, it will have some of this built in, hence the elusive nature.

Ultimately, since the subject isn't fleshed out enough, its hard to create standard qualifications. This is why I think it is important the subject is tackled collectively, from a variety of angles. For example, Walter's background is in military intelligence, and military intelligence has played a role in how aspects of the UFO narrative has been crafted. Therefore, his background would be useful when looking at instances where there are signs or opportunities for disinformation and intel manipulation. Don Ecker's background is broad, but focuses heavily on investigations. As a detective he has a set of skills that allow him to ask the right questions, and look at evidence and witnesses in specific way. A guy like Richard Dolan is a trained academic historian. So regardless of his personal involvement with this case, or that speaker, his writings and books are pretty reliable (UFOs and the National Security State). His foundation as a well-educated academic who understands primary sources, citations, research methodologies, and clear writing is helpful when trying to document a broad picture of the phenomena for later reference. Finally, the guys like Bruce Macabee and other scientists are able to look at collected evidence, and examine it a way that Don, a detective, would not have the training to do.

So ultimately, this issue needs to have a very large table, with many seats, rather than "standard qualifications." Investigating UFOs should not be reduced to something like a job at the local mall or even a lab, it requires so much more.

(I personally believe psychologists, philosophers, behavior science, neurology, religion and even some intuitives could also be useful too..)
 
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lol, I did not play a role in how the UFO narrative was crafted. I have said I worked around the world in which it may have been crafted and understand how. There's a difference. :D
 
lol, I did not play a role in how the UFO narrative was crafted. I have said I worked around the world in which it may have been crafted and understand how. There's a difference. :D

Yea, that sentence read awkwardly, I wanted to change it. I mean "military intelligence" (NOT WALTER HIMSELF!!!!) played a role in how the narrative was crafted (through disinformation and trade craft, something you can speak to).

Regardless, I corrected it. Hey, I have been in purgatory for a while. That's the longest thing I have written since college. Go easy!
 
FWIW, anyone who enjoys the saucer life, may find this website entertaining. Encounter: # 306 The Saucers Spoke is noteworthy. The narrator’s voice sounds familiar, perhaps Burnt State.

The Saucer Life
 
There are no qualifications. Not that there should be. You just try to ignore the huge signal to noise ratio if you're trying to learn anything useful.
I think qualifications in ufology are a good idea for reps. I'm sure you have probably seen how someone with a degree in whatever, but has no ufology background, can make some big boo boos that are damaging to the field. Even people in ufology themselves who are deemed to be "experts" muck things up, but since there's nobody to point a finger, what do they care? Now that the media has taken a shift in attitude, it would be beneficial to have a reliable source for them to quote. I think CUFOS is still operational, and they're probably the best if we had to pick any particular group to look to. Otherwise it's left to a motley crew of talking heads and MUFON, which as just covered in the Margie Kay post illustrates how much they can be relied upon for consistently good analysis.
 
I would however caution not to make it sound like everybody else in the world doesn't have any critical thinking skills I find that most people interested in ufology put at least a measure of thought into the subject, and those who have put a lot of thought into it have pretty good reasons for thinking that the ETH is the leading theory for UFOs ( theory - in a casual sense ), and again, let's not forget that the ETH is a class of theories. It's not just a single theory. It includes, lunar, interplanetary, interstellar, space nomads, other universes, other time lines ( basically the same as other universes ), and other dimensions ( also basically the same as other universes ).

Some people do have critical thinking skills and the ETH is a viable theory. If I implied that some ETH supporters were less than intelligent, I apologize. I am just bored with it.
 
Yea, that sentence read awkwardly, I wanted to change it. I mean "military intelligence" (NOT WALTER HIMSELF!!!!) played a role in how the narrative was crafted (through disinformation and trade craft, something you can speak to).

Regardless, I corrected it. Hey, I have been in purgatory for a while. That's the longest thing I have written since college. Go easy!

It's great to see you back here!
 
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