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Insurrection USA 2021

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
I'm totally with you and was just trying to lighten things a little. We can do that because although there is a faction that might think even I'm too far "out there" I don't think I'm so far gone that I've lost touch with reality, and I would say the same for yourself. How it is that people go over the edge I'm not sure, and it would be interesting to see if we can figure out why and do something about it.
Honestly, the only thing I think we can do about it is to remain as intellectually honest as possible. I know that can annoy people (even on these forums) sometimes but the truth is sometimes just the truth.

The truth is, sometimes people lie. And the truth is, sometimes people get so lost in the lies that they make insane decisions. Heaven's Gate is an example of this. The UFO and other 'New Age' stuff all seems like love and light and then people lose track of what is demonstrably true vs what could be true vs what is just insane. And then people get hurt or die.

This field is not at all different than the conspiracy thinking that brought on QAnon. Not at all. The only difference is that we have had fewer people use the nonsense to seek power at the cost of other people's lives. But that's non-zero given the UFO cults and Bennewitz. Those are the warning shots.
In that regard, it seems that one of the key factors in promoting a positive change is not to drive the opposition into a frame of mind where they dig themselves in further, and that's what I was getting at by being fair-minded, and using some emotional intelligence. My efforts in that regard have not been entirely successful, but I have made some progress.
I profoundly disagree.

That strategy is simple appeasement. I've seen it with Trump supporters I know - you get told over and over again to be polite and hear them out otherwise you'll alienate them further.

This is the wrong approach. The right approach is a complete and total denial of the falsehoods, the conspiracies, the nonsense. Even if it's impolite or anti-social. Non-voilently of course, but it must end.
The problem is that if we were to Venn diagram it, some people are completely in their own bubble, or what @Gene Steinberg calls being on Earth 2. I'm not sure how we can get through to them, or if we should even try. Maybe the best we can do is persuade some of those who are drifting a little too far into the twilight zone not to go so far that they get lost.
I don't care about getting through to them. I don't care about reaching out. They don't want to be reached. They don't want to be reasonable. They want appeasement, because that's the way you slowly move the needle over to insanity.

Drunk driving is no longer socially acceptable. Smoking around children is no longer socially acceptable. And so many other things... which have actually moved the needle. Simply because it's no longer socially acceptable.

Wear a MAGA hat around me now, and I'm not going to be any quieter about it than I would be a Nazi symbol.
On participating in the show, I've got a couple of ideas I'll run past Gene. How would feel about being a relief cohost? Or perhaps doing a weekly short segment where you present your views on these issues? I can't promise anything, but we're kicking these sorts of ideas around. We had Puckett for a while, but he bailed. We're also looking at the Debrief guys.
Hmm... very cool idea. Any idea about the time commitment?
One thing that would be really helpful is to have a guest coordinator, and if you were doing that, you'd literally have control of who would appear on the show, and you could choose those you feel are the best according to your criteria. It's easy to say we'd like to make a difference, but actually doing something about it is harder. So I understand if that's too big an ask, but the opportunity is there if you want it.
Same for that one. Covid and work has really driven my life nuts - working a lot more hours for a lot less money - but this is something I'm fairly passionate about as you know.
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Honestly, the only thing I think we can do about it is to remain as intellectually honest as possible. I know that can annoy people (even on these forums) sometimes but the truth is sometimes just the truth.

The truth is, sometimes people lie. And the truth is, sometimes people get so lost in the lies that they make insane decisions. Heaven's Gate is an example of this. The UFO and other 'New Age' stuff all seems like love and light and then people lose track of what is demonstrably true vs what could be true vs what is just insane. And then people get hurt or die.
In my experience most people don't even know what it means for something to be true. They equate it with anything that agrees with their belief or point of view. I found out the uncomfortable way that simply presenting the facts backfires more often than enlightens.
This field is not at all different than the conspiracy thinking that brought on QAnon. Not at all. The only difference is that we have had fewer people use the nonsense to seek power at the cost of other people's lives. But that's non-zero given the UFO cults and Bennewitz. Those are the warning shots.
Q Anon is a murky social phenomena. My guess ( and that's all it is - a guess ) is that it wasn't simply a bored teen in his parents basement, but that it was either someone with anti Republican Party affiliations doing some way "out there" guerrilla campaign support, or a foreign interest with designs on Western destabilization. Or maybe it really was a bored teen in his parents basement :p
I profoundly disagree. That strategy is simple appeasement. I've seen it with Trump supporters I know - you get told over and over again to be polite and hear them out otherwise you'll alienate them further.
And that has been my experience as well.
This is the wrong approach. The right approach is a complete and total denial of the falsehoods, the conspiracies, the nonsense. Even if it's impolite or anti-social. Non-voilently of course, but it must end.
Perhaps we might distinguish here between the "right" approach, and your own particular approach, which you might have more luck with than I do.
I don't care about getting through to them.
I do.
I don't care about reaching out.
I do.
They don't want to be reached.
I strongly suspect that they do want to be reached, because being reached is the same as being acknowledged. So here we have a group of potential agents for change who simply need acknowledgement. Once we understand the basis for their need to be acknowledged, then there is a chance that we might be able to connect with them on that level.
They don't want to be reasonable.
I suspect that many of them believe they are being reasonable under the circumstances as they see them. Certainly there are exceptions where there are people who don't care one way or the other so long as it facilitates an opportunity to act-out, but I doubt they all fall into that category.
They want appeasement, because that's the way you slowly move the needle over to insanity.
I doubt that most of them see it that way.
Drunk driving is no longer socially acceptable. Smoking around children is no longer socially acceptable. And so many other things... which have actually moved the needle. Simply because it's no longer socially acceptable.
Social acceptability isn't something I'm too not terribly concerned about. Large segments of society have been socialized to believe in things or behave in ways that aren't true to reality, and those who disagree with them have been outcast or worse. The examples you give are cases where things that were once socially acceptable changed over time ( for good reason ).
Wear a MAGA hat around me now, and I'm not going to be any quieter about it than I would be a Nazi symbol.
I suggest countering with a "Make Marduk Great Again" t-shirt.
Hmm... very cool idea. Any idea about the time commitment?
It all depends on how organized you are and what your role would be.
Same for that one. Covid and work has really driven my life nuts - working a lot more hours for a lot less money - but this is something I'm fairly passionate about as you know.
I understand. If I weren't retired I couldn't do all of what I do. We should probably talk about it further in-person ( phone or Skype ), or if we get a really nice day, we could grab a coffee at Good Earth and chat outside. There are a couple of benches over at the Safeway that get full Sun. probably the most comfortable and easiest under the circumstances would be Skype. Just check to see if my green dot is on, and feel free to call any time.
 
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marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Perhaps we might distinguish here between the "right" approach, and your own particular approach, which you might have more luck with than I do.
Ya, fair, you know what I mean... I meant to say 'unskillful in my opinion'. I'm certainly neither the arbiter of truth or correctness.
I strongly suspect that they do want to be reached, because being reached is the same as being acknowledged. So here we have a group of potential agents for change who simply need acknowledgement. Once we understand the basis for their need to be acknowledged, then there is a chance that we might be able to connect with them on that level.
I'm not sure about that. I think there's a sense of loss - triggered by conservatives in North America dramatically undermining and underfunding education, because many think they don't need it. Which leads to job loss, and a sense of elitism from the educated. When what really happened (in my opinion) is that they coasted. They thought the factory jobs would always be there, and education was unnecessary. As one facet.

Another facet is the loss of privilege. When everybody has equal privilege, it feels like a loss if you've grown up with just having it. It feels like you're having something taken away from you. And then look at the folks that stormed the White House - mostly men, almost uniformly white. Equality feels like oppression when you're used to privilege.
I suspect that many of them believe they are being reasonable under the circumstances as they see them. Certainly there are exceptions where there are people who don't care one way or the other so long as it facilitates an opportunity to act-out, but I doubt they all fall into that category.

I doubt that most of them see it that way.

Social acceptability isn't something I'm too not terribly concerned about. Large segments of society have been socialized to believe in things or behave in ways that aren't true to reality, and those who disagree with them have been outcast or worse. The examples you give are cases where things that were once socially acceptable changed over time ( for good reason ).

I suggest countering with a "Make Marduk Great Again" t-shirt.

It all depends on how organized you are and what your role would be.

I understand. If I weren't retired I couldn't do all of what I do. We should probably talk about it further in-person ( phone or Skype ), or if we get a really nice day, we could grab a coffee at Good Earth and chat outside. There are a couple of benches over at the Safeway that get full Sun. probably the most comfortable and easiest under the circumstances would be Skype. Just check to see if my green dot is on, and feel free to call any time.
Sounds like a plan. I'll have to re-install Skype.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Totally misunderstood.

The first amendment is about Congress establishing controls over free speech. Private companies have the right to regulate the content on their services. Either way, the first amendment doesn't give Americans the right to yell fire in a crowded theater (unless there's a fire of course) or call for an insurrection. By its lax controls, the social networks allowed extremist propaganda to fester, and now they are showing responsibility in trying to put controls on the practice. When they try to act responsibly, America's right wing bitches. But if they acted responsibly, and didn't call for violence and attempt to overturn a legitimate election, they wouldn't face the consequences they deserve.
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
One of the claims I heard is that Pennsylvania had hundreds of thousands of phantom absentee ballots. So I guess the following is fake news :rolleyes:

 
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Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Exactly, fake news. The Trump cronies filed some 60 lawsuits in various courts including the U.S. Supreme Court, many of which had Republican judges, including judges appointed by Trump. They almost universally rejected the claims. No evidence of widespread election fraud was ever produced. Every single claim was debunked except for one allowing election observers to watch from a slightly closer distance.

It's all about Trump claiming for months and years that if he lost the election, it couldn't be because people didn't want him, but because of fraud. Totally irrational.

Trump even berated election authorities via phone calls to illegally overturn the election results. Incredible!
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Totally misunderstood.

The first amendment is about Congress establishing controls over free speech. Private companies have the right to regulate the content on their services.
Sure. We have a local talk show host quitting because she has been getting constantly attacked by Twitter mobs who disagree with her. I've never heard her incite any violence or even speak irresponsibility ( IMO ), but those who do think she's promoted irresponsible ideas have been getting militant.
But if they acted responsibly, and didn't call for violence and attempt to overturn a legitimate election, they wouldn't face the consequences they deserve.
In principle I have to agree, but at the same time, what is and isn't considered responsible is often a matter of subjective opinion rather than established fact. Yes. Business owners in a democracy can hire and fire whoever they want for whatever reason they want, and then deal with whatever civil fallout may ensue, but does that necessarily make them right?

If they are right only when we agree with them, aren't we mirroring the same problem we're being critical of? More often than not, it's been my experience that company management is only right by virtue of them having the power to get rid of anyone who disagrees with them. Doesn't that remind you of anyone who used to behave that way on a particular unnamed reality show?
 
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Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Let's just say that Facebook and Twitter really allowed a lot of abuse before acting. Trump's entire political career was based largely on using Facebook, Twitter and getting support from Fox News and other conservative news outlets.

For all the complaining, nothing stops the President of the United States from holding press conferences or other public events to get coverage. And he will get coverage.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Wow. What do you think of this in the context of freedom of speech and expression?
Nothing. Free speech in America concerns the inability of their government to restrict free speech. Private organizations can (and probably should) restrict free speech within their systems. For example, I could be fired for sending off hate speech notes using my companies email system. And that's a good thing.

It is quite fascinating that Conservatives in America pushed to reinforce that businesses can decide who they do business with and who they don't want to with the whole 'gay wedding cake' fiasco:

Now in Canada, we probably would have forced the baker to do the cake. But in the US they didn't. I fail to see how kicking Trump or his followers off of anything privately owned is a free speech issue.

I mean, you and Gene can kick anyone off here for any reason whatsoever. Flip that rule, and you couldn't. And then you couldn't restrict violent or racist speech here either. That's something Canada hasn't really tackled that clearly, but could be an interesting debate.

However, I'll admit my bias - free speech is totally overrated in my opinion. Especially by many of our Yankee compadres. Tolerance doesn't extend to those that are intolerant. That is a big reason why Jan 6th happened - a fear of a potential harm (the slippery slope free speech argument) led to a very real harm.

And yet for many on the conservative side, the potential harm very much outweighs the actual harm that we've seen. That is, as long as they are the ones being harmed.
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Let's just say that Facebook and Twitter really allowed a lot of abuse before acting. Trump's entire political career was based largely on using Facebook, Twitter and getting support from Fox News and other conservative news outlets.

For all the complaining, nothing stops the President of the United States from holding press conferences or other public events to get coverage. And he will get coverage.
Personally, I'd like to see Trump get everything he's dished out to others thrown right back in his face, but the idea of media management firing hosts for expressing their views is in my mind, something completely different.
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Nothing. Free speech in America concerns the inability of their government to restrict free speech. Private organizations can (and probably should) restrict free speech within their systems. For example, I could be fired for sending off hate speech notes using my companies email system. And that's a good thing.
Right, however you're work isn't to comment publicly on the news of the day, or you might very well find yourself in a position where what you think is okay, is hate mail to someone else. Consider the Jordan Peterson case. They tried to get him fired. They failed, and IMO they should have failed.
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member
Insurrection Logic

US-Insurrection2021-13c.png

The logic of the guy being interviewed above was that due to there being so many mail-in ballots, that the results are completely different than what would have been expected had the election been conducted pre-pandemic. He may be entirely correct, however that doesn't justify the conclusion that the election was rigged.

Also, the fact that more people than expected voted by mail doesn't support the idea that Trump should have won. I'm sure @marduk would agree that regardless of type, a vote is a vote, and in this case the evidence from those votes is that it was time for a change of leadership. My question is whether or not backwards ball caps are a marker for a particular type of thinking in general?

 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
The comment about mail-in ballots is a total lie. It doesn't change the results. It just changes the methods people use. There is no evidence that mail-in — basically absentee ballots — are less secure. Some states use mail ballots exclusively and have for years.

That's all based on the lies promulgated by Trump to make an excuse when he lost. We're dealing with a spoiled child who has been coddled all his life. He was a millionaire as a small child, and his daddy bailed him out until his daddy died. Then Donald and his family raided their dad's estate to enrich themselves. What a family!
 

Randall

J. Randall Murphy
Staff member


Police Confirm Death Of Officer Injured During Attack On Capitol​


"U.S. Capitol Police announced late Thursday that an officer hurt during this week's violent assault on the chambers of Congress by protesters loyal to President Trump has died from his injuries.​
"At approximately 9:30 p.m. this evening (January 7, 2021), United States Capitol Police Officer Brian D. Sicknick passed away due to injuries sustained while on-duty," a statement from the U.S. Capitol Police said."​


Sicknick was hit with a fire extinguisher during Wednesday’s siege and never recovered, His death will be investigated by Washington DC Metropolitan Police homicide investigators, the Capital Police, and federal agencies.
 
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marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Right, however you're work isn't to comment publicly on the news of the day, or you might very well find yourself in a position where what you think is okay, is hate mail to someone else. Consider the Jordan Peterson case. They tried to get him fired. They failed, and IMO they should have failed.
He's an irrational man-child. Should he be censored or laughed as a professor? Both, but not by the state.

We had a professor thrown out of UofC my final year. Get enough students together to complain about their poor teaching, and they get banned from ever teaching that course again. They're often dismissed after the first time that happens, and almost certainly after 2 or 3. From what I understand, it's one of the few ways they can be removed from teaching at a University even if they have tenure.

I'd certainly sign up for that if I were one of his students. He's a whiney loon complaining about his loss of white male privilege, and that's pretty much the end of it.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Insurrection Logic

US-Insurrection2021-13c.png

The logic of the guy being interviewed above was that due to there being so many mail-in ballots, that the results are completely different than what would have been expected had the election been conducted pre-pandemic. He may be entirely correct, however that doesn't justify the conclusion that the election was rigged.

Also, the fact that more people than expected voted by mail doesn't support the idea that Trump should have won. I'm sure @marduk would agree that regardless of type, a vote is a vote, and in this case the evidence from those votes is that it was time for a change of leadership. My question is whether or not backwards ball caps are a marker for a particular type of thinking in general?

If your baseball hat is red and says "Make America Great Again" you're effectively walking around with a neo-nazi symbol as far as I'm concerned. Proudboys are hopefully going too be labelled a terrorist organization in Canada soon.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
The comment about mail-in ballots is a total lie. It doesn't change the results. It just changes the methods people use. There is no evidence that mail-in — basically absentee ballots — are less secure. Some states use mail ballots exclusively and have for years.

That's all based on the lies promulgated by Trump to make an excuse when he lost. We're dealing with a spoiled child who has been coddled all his life. He was a millionaire as a small child, and his daddy bailed him out until his daddy died. Then Donald and his family raided their dad's estate to enrich themselves. What a family!
Even more, he encouraged mail in ballots from states that he's favoured in, and discouraged and lied about mail in ballots in states he's unfavored in.
 

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