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Incubus/Succubus Vs. Night Hag Vs. Alien Abduction




Konrad Hartmann

Paranormal Maven
This was probably discussed before, but the topic was raised in the last show and I was wondering. Regarding the above phenomena, do you think that all three are the same thing? It seems as though one's explanation of the events tells more about personal belief than the experience. For example, some religions would say that each event was a visitation by a demon, regardless of its shape. In some regions, the local folklore supports belief in night hags, and being hag-ridden. Others, like David Jacobs, might say that all of these are just screened or unscreened abduction memories. And others people might say that none of this is real, but only sleep paralysis and hypnogogic hallucination.

So which is it? The existence of one phenomenon does not preclude that of the others. Do expectations determine the form of the experience? Do we possess pre-existing constructs that become activated when in contact with the weird? Is it less of a act of faith to believe that such experiences can only be hallucinatory? And does the experience not exist at some level, even if only dreamed?
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
had alot of these. plus the floating through the wall stuff too. plus the shadowy figure thing. the floating stuff was cool it felt like i was pushing my body through thick gravy. it happened so much that i was able to interact and gain some control of the xperience to the extent that i realised i wasn't actualy floating in real space but my mind had created a virtual reality dream space, an imaginative constuct of my familiar surroundings that was almost exactly the same. this was diametricaly opposed to feelings of imovability or paralysis which i was also experiencing, as a kid i worked out this may have been due to lack of oxygen to the brain, similar experiences are felt by pilots when undertaking g-force maneuveurs. all of these things were the result of stress which permeated as these phenomenon during sleep.

the feeling of a "watching presence" is also a natural brain effect, this can be induced with magnetic stimulous to a certain part of the brain to get this "god feeling".
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
i'm all for the sleep paralysis and hypnogogic hallucination explanation, but i had a LOT of these when i was a kid...probably under ten and the effect does appear sporadically even today. Unlike some occurances reported by other people i've never seen anything, but i always felt a prescence. having said that the occurences w/me dropped dramatically after one episode where i have the distinct recall of fighting "it" off, i told "it" " i'm getting sick of this, i'm not going to let you get away with this" this was when i was in my mid-30s and as i said, it still happens but not nearly the same frequency which at one time was almost monthly. it's like i told my brian to stop doing whatever it was doing, like maybe arousing me before my body was ready to awaken? still in as much as i had them going back to my childhood i would have thought that i would have been too young and unsophisticated to have such feelings (being observed)

i wonder if people who tend to sleepwallk ever experience this phenomena in asmuch as it's tied to our body's self-imposed paralysis so as not to hurt ourselves when we dream, if they do, we may have to re-evalute our explanation for the old hag syndrome
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
i wonder if people who tend to sleepwallk ever experience this phenomena in asmuch as it's tied to our body's self-imposed paralysis so as not to hurt ourselves when we dream, if they do, we may have to re-evalute our explanation for the old hag syndrome
maybe we dont have to reevaluate stuff. its sometimes perfectly fine and more usefull to personify or ritualise stuff in order to deal with them better. time and people alot smarter than us have established a way of doing this with this phenomena, to the point that you "fought" it off and dealt with the problem psychological or otherwise without drugs and psycho-counseling
 

Konrad Hartmann

Paranormal Maven
had alot of these. plus the floating through the wall stuff too. plus the shadowy figure thing. the floating stuff was cool it felt like i was pushing my body through thick gravy. it happened so much that i was able to interact and gain some control of the xperience to the extent that i realised i wasn't actualy floating in real space but my mind had created a virtual reality dream space, an imaginative constuct of my familiar surroundings that was almost exactly the same. this was diametricaly opposed to feelings of imovability or paralysis which i was also experiencing, as a kid i worked out this may have been due to lack of oxygen to the brain, similar experiences are felt by pilots when undertaking g-force maneuveurs. all of these things were the result of stress which permeated as these phenomenon during sleep.

the feeling of a "watching presence" is also a natural brain effect, this can be induced with magnetic stimulous to a certain part of the brain to get this "god feeling".
So what do you think about abduction reports in which the victim describes being taken through a wall? Do you think it's the same thing? Regarding the shadowy figure, what was your emotional response to that? The way you describe everything, it doesn't sound as scary as many people describe it.
 

Konrad Hartmann

Paranormal Maven
i'm all for the sleep paralysis and hypnogogic hallucination explanation, but i had a LOT of these when i was a kid...probably under ten and the effect does appear sporadically even today. Unlike some occurances reported by other people i've never seen anything, but i always felt a prescence. having said that the occurences w/me dropped dramatically after one episode where i have the distinct recall of fighting "it" off, i told "it" " i'm getting sick of this, i'm not going to let you get away with this" this was when i was in my mid-30s and as i said, it still happens but not nearly the same frequency which at one time was almost monthly. it's like i told my brian to stop doing whatever it was doing, like maybe arousing me before my body was ready to awaken? still in as much as i had them going back to my childhood i would have thought that i would have been too young and unsophisticated to have such feelings (being observed)

i wonder if people who tend to sleepwallk ever experience this phenomena in asmuch as it's tied to our body's self-imposed paralysis so as not to hurt ourselves when we dream, if they do, we may have to re-evalute our explanation for the old hag syndrome
From Wikipedia:
In Newfoundland, it is known as the 'Old Hag'.[38] In island folklore, the Hag can be summoned to attack a third party, like a curse. In his 1982 book, The Terror that Comes in the Night, David J. Hufford writes that in local culture the way to call the Hag is to recite the Lord's Prayer backwards.
Do you have migraines by chance? Can you describe the presence? I remember reading that, with sleep paralysis, the chemical that tells your body to stop moving while it is dreaming (so you don't act out going to work in your underwear or whatever you dream) remains active even after you are no longer dreaming or at least not completely awake.

I've never had this experience, but I have had the experience of moving about while dreaming. Typically, I'm dreaming that I'm trapped in a completely dark room, perhaps a dungeon or basement, and I'm frantically trying to find the way out or trying to open a locked door. When I wake up, I'm trying to open the door (or wall).
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
fwiw, after snooping around i have to conclude that what i suffer(ed) from was actually not hypnagagia but hypnopopia(?) as when ever these attacks occured it was after i had already fallen asleep and was on the verge of waking up. which i guess is typical of the old hag syndrom, maybe not so much hypnagagia but hypnopompia...this is something i remembered looking into some years ago but never really explored.

from wikipedia

A hypnopompic state (or hypnopomp) is the state of consciousness leading out of sleep, a term coined by the psychical researcher Frederic Myers. Its twin is the hypnagogic state at sleep onset; though often conflated, the two states are not identical. The hypnagogic state is rational waking cognition trying to make sense of non-linear images and associations; the hypnopompic state is emotional and credulous dreaming cognition trying to make sense of real world stolidity. They have a different phenomenological character. Depressed frontal lobe function in the first few minutes after waking – known as "sleep inertia" – causes slowed reaction time and impaired short-term memory. Sleepers often wake confused, or speak without making sense, a phenomenon the psychologist Peter McKeller calls "hypnopompic speech". When the awakening occurs out of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, in which most dreams occur, the hypnopompic state is sometimes accompanied by lingering vivid imagery. Some of the creative insights attributed to dreams actually happen in this moment of awakening from REM. In The Committee of Sleep, Margie Profet's McArthur-award winning biology experiment is shown to be one of these.

also it seems that in many cases it is during the hypnogagic(?) state drifting off to sleep that most people report alien abductions Dreams, Hallucinations, Alien Abductions, and Old Hag

i am not vouching for the above site, but it is interesting that these two "twin" states have different effects between the two of them but those effects are the same for a majority of people. in other words, its alien abductions before we fall asleep and old hags as we are waking....who knew?

 

Wade

FeralNormal master
From Wikipedia:


Do you have migraines by chance? Can you describe the presence? I remember reading that, with sleep paralysis, the chemical that tells your body to stop moving while it is dreaming (so you don't act out going to work in your underwear or whatever you dream) remains active even after you are no longer dreaming or at least not completely awake.

I've never had this experience, but I have had the experience of moving about while dreaming. Typically, I'm dreaming that I'm trapped in a completely dark room, perhaps a dungeon or basement, and I'm frantically trying to find the way out or trying to open a locked door. When I wake up, I'm trying to open the door (or wall).
no, never any migranes...presence sensation was just like the proverbial hair standing up on the back of your neck, the odd thing is, at least w/me this is the FIRST thing i sense, even before the paralysis kicked in and that strikes me as odd in that it would be one thing to experience a paralysis based event and then get the "hebbie-jebbies" it would seem to be a natural reaction, but to wake up w/the sense of being observed and then noticing the paralysis would seem to me at least, be backwards. the hair on back of neck sensation is a response to a strong emotion or stimuli and thus first there would be a perceived threat i.e. you are paralysised and you react accordingly to it, but that didn't/doesn't happen w/me. i would panic in the past , and now, every since i confronted it, i just relax and tell myself it's no big deal it's happening again and i just transfer into a normal wake up mode and many times drift off again. i think i subconsciously know that i have gained control over the phenomena and it doesn't impact as much now. and the dark unfamiliar room is a very strong and constant aspect, at times i will have woken up to find my face almost completely against the wall ( my bed is in a corner) also for a few years i worked on some ships and on some older vessels the masts would contain deck lockers which you would keep line and schakles and such, they are pretty small and would make a nifty holding cell, in some dreams i was tossed in there and when the door was shut, it wouold be COMPLETELY black as would my room as i started to wake up
 

Konrad Hartmann

Paranormal Maven
no, never any migranes...presence sensation was just like the proverbial hair standing up on the back of your neck, the odd thing is, at least w/me this is the FIRST thing i sense, even before the paralysis kicked in and that strikes me as odd in that it would be one thing to experience a paralysis based event and then get the "hebbie-jebbies" it would seem to be a natural reaction, but to wake up w/the sense of being observed and then noticing the paralysis would seem to me at least, be backwards. the hair on back of neck sensation is a response to a strong emotion or stimuli and thus first there would be a perceived threat i.e. you are paralysised and you react accordingly to it, but that didn't/doesn't happen w/me. i would panic in the past , and now, every since i confronted it, i just relax and tell myself it's no big deal it's happening again and i just transfer into a normal wake up mode and many times drift off again. i think i subconsciously know that i have gained control over the phenomena and it doesn't impact as much now. and the dark unfamiliar room is a very strong and constant aspect, at times i will have woken up to find my face almost completely against the wall ( my bed is in a corner) also for a few years i worked on some ships and on some older vessels the masts would contain deck lockers which you would keep line and schakles and such, they are pretty small and would make a nifty holding cell, in some dreams i was tossed in there and when the door was shut, it wouold be COMPLETELY black as would my room as i started to wake up
Was it more common to have these experiences when you were overtired or sleep deprived by the time you went to bed?
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
That's a little hard to say, at one time it was a pretty frequent occurance. Looking back , it would be fair to say I was less relaxed about my sleeping habits, I am by nature a "ponderer (?)" and dwell on things. During the day I was so busy and preoccupied I didn't have time to think about the things that interested me and I would do so as i was settling down, also I tended to relive events of the past day, good and bad, or anticipate upcoming events good and bad. It was if I couldn't turn my brain off, and i would frustrate myself and compound the problem by trying to force myself to relax ( how is that for a contradiction ?!) and in effect creating a scenario for a restless night. It was only the past couple of years that i got a handle on this naturally, before that I took this wonderful supplement from a health food store. I forgot the name of it, but it wasn't a narcotic it just "made you stupid" by that I mean it disrupted your thinking process and wouldn't let you concentrate on things, which was my problem, the effect it had was not unlike what you experience if you try reading a book as you're drifting off and you might find yourself re-reading previous passages because you realized they didn't make sense, you didn't grasp their meaning, so you give up and let nature take it's course.

All that is just a long-winded way of saying I did not have a normal healthy sleeping pattern so you could say there was fertile ground for me to create these attacks BUT the wave of frequent attacks ended some time before I managed to get a handle on the problem itself, as I mentioned before I handled that in a different way. Also the problem would have probably had some kind of aggregate component as I clearly remembering having attacks at times where I had dropped right off to sleep as soon as my head hit the pillow, but it still could have been a problem period for me, so maybe it was a delayed response.

I don't remember having many hypnagogic attacks, there were a few, but many, many, hypnopompic attacks. And it was always the same I would awaken for whatever reason ( probably a couple of hours??) before my usual time and even before the paralysis kicked in, I felt I wasn't alone I don't remember seeing anything (but then I never looked) at least in my adult stage, but as a kid I do remember a lot of "visitations" by shadow people ( even before I fell asleep). I tend to sleep on my stomach and my head would usually be facing the wall or the nightstand in the other direction and because I couldn't move I couldn't take in my surroundings so I never really had the opportunity to see anything. And yes ,they were always very frightening until they became very annoying and i got angry and started to fight back, now they're quite rare.

Thank you for letting me get that off my shoulders, it was enlightening in the sense that until I chimed in on this thread I never really analyzed the mechanics behind my situation although I did look into the phenomena
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
i would never rule out at looking at this phenomena in the oldschool way as "entity" based as much as i would use psychological or medical perscriptions/discriptions.
There is definitely a psychosexual element to this. We should look at this in a Reichian orgonomic way.
As with other paranormal mythological creatures, certain "spirit entities" feed of emotional and physical energies, from fear, love, hate to sex, much like human beings do. The harnessing of sexual power or energy is a key element to certain occult rituals and is a key to partly understanding this phenomena. i think?
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
i would never rule out at looking at this phenomena in the oldschool way as "entity" based as much as i would use psychological or medical perscriptions/discriptions.
There is definitely a psychosexual element to this. We should look at this in a Reichian orgonomic way.
As with other paranormal mythological creatures, certain "spirit entities" feed of emotional and physical energies, from fear, love, hate to sex, much like human beings do. The harnessing of sexual power or energy is a key element to certain occult rituals and is a key to partly understanding this phenomena. i think?
That is a dead on observation nameless, as I tried to allude to earlier I was having these attacks long before I became an adult and stressed about the days burdens. Both my sister and I had these attacks that we both talk about in our later years. they were never...or never seemed...overtly paranormal experiences if that makes sense. They were somewhat ill defined, exactly what to expect from someone as young as us, as I got older they pretty much ceased except for the hypnopompic episodes and other strange dreams. We were both haunted by the same dark eyed black eyed little girl who apparently made a physical manifestation a few days before I arrived on a trip home several years ago it was on this trip my sister and I had the first real talk we had about our experiences and we each found out about the dark eyed girl in each others dreams. At any rate when I first heard about dr. barry taff and his theories I got very intrigued as I did when I first "got into" the trickster theory, I don't know how much of it i accept but I sure am intrigued by it. as I posted before I AM convinced that what we get out of paranormal experiences is what we put into it.
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
Hello, Spookymulder and Nameless. First of all, these questions are very honestly put to you, not to start up an argument on religion. I am intrigued by the posts of both of you in this thread.

1. Spookymulder, if you thought about it a bit more, do you think you could come up with the name of the supplement you mentioned that you used? You described it rather positively, and I'm very curious if you could remember the name. I don't think it was melatonin, because on another thread didn't you and I and Steve discuss melatonin?

2. Nameless, I won't lie and say a few comments by you about Christianity haven't irritated me, but that's not my point with this question: in your post above you mention "paranormal mythological creatures", "spirit entities", and described just simply as "entities." It seems you mean them in an objectively existing way, and I am honestly asking you to what extent do you feel they have an objective existence as opposed to an image in a sleep-state, etc.? And Spookymulder, your mention of the "dark eyed girl" is as both a "physical manifestation" and as a character in your and your sister's dreams. Is this girl in your opinion a dream image only or does she exist in the sense of having an actual freestanding objective existence also?

Again, these are honest questions, and I am curious. I'm not trying to argue with you or refute you. Just genuinely curious. Kim:)
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
peace Kim. Sorry if you take offence to anything ive written. Subjective, objective. it doesnt matter. Right now and i guess this can be applied to alot of paranormal experiences certain events expereineced or witnessed can not be proven but can be shared, written down, re-experenced and with the same situations set up, can be re-experienced. The results, whether it happens in the physical world or in your mind, the actual experiences and effects seem to amount to the same thing. Its abit like religion. Whether its foundation and nature of belief is fact, fiction, true or false, one can not place an in- validity on the intrinsic help and power a belief system brings to an individual.
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
@kim 323, truth be told I knew someone would ask about this, and I'll try to come up with answer I'll need to make a trip to the co op, it is a botanical though, I believe dandelion seed is an ingredient and you would find it with melatonin but I don't feel it was ever an element in any experiences. I mentioned it as a side note in case there were others that had the same problem I did, an inability to fall asleep because you weren't able to" tune your thoughts out "
 

Wade

FeralNormal master
Hurray For Me !! I remember !!

Original Bach Flower Essences - Rescue Sleep

Interesting testimonial from a fellow californian that sounds like she had same problem....not the hypnopompic episodes but restless mind

“In the past, I was never able to fall asleep due to tossing and turning. My mind would just go on and on for hours, thinking about what happened that day, what I wanted to do the following day, and so on… I found myself staying up until early hours of the morning reading or working on my computer trying to get myself to become tired. I’ve never agreed with taking sleeping pills, because I always feared the dreaded groggyness that usually occurs the following morning as well as other side effects that come along with taking pharmaceutical drugs. As a strong believer in Homeopathic and natural remedies, I set out to look for something that was harmless, gentle, and that didn’t give me the drugged feeling.

Since discovering Bach’s Rescue Sleep I have been able to fall asleep fast! It amazing how two sprays will allow me to gradually fall asleep within ten minutes after taking it!! Once I spraythe Rescue Sleep, my mind begins to clear and my constant thinking stops. I LOVE the product.and have recommended it to family and friends..My dad uses it every night and he has had restful sleep ever since he started. I’m glad I never turned to pharmaceutical drugs"

I hear ' ya sister
 


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