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Dr. Roger Leir
- Thread starter wwkirk
- Start date
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That's one of the huge controversies when it comes to abductions. If real, how many are there?
Ive never had a problem with the millions of (or even universal as leer claims) abductions scenario.
It may not make sense via "inhouse" filters ie medical exams.
But there are scenarios where it does
The DNA storage library scenario is one where millions of "access" events might make sense
Then there is my post biological parallel population idea.
ie: we have a post biological population, that uses linear time earth as a resource centre.
It grows new minds, and serves as a repository for the raw DNA used to created the cloned biovessels for the uploaded minds, once they step up to the next level of existance.
When your optimised clone biovessel wears out, you simply pop back downtime to a point in your native biological phase, abduct youself and take what material you need for your next clone.
Rinse and repeat for eternal existance.
It may not make sense via "inhouse" filters ie medical exams.
But there are scenarios where it does
The DNA storage library scenario is one where millions of "access" events might make sense
Then there is my post biological parallel population idea.
ie: we have a post biological population, that uses linear time earth as a resource centre.
It grows new minds, and serves as a repository for the raw DNA used to created the cloned biovessels for the uploaded minds, once they step up to the next level of existance.
When your optimised clone biovessel wears out, you simply pop back downtime to a point in your native biological phase, abduct youself and take what material you need for your next clone.
Rinse and repeat for eternal existance.
Hamlet by William Shakespeare: Act 1. Scene V
SlightlyAbovePar
Skilled Investigator
The thought of any abductions taking place is positively terrifying to me. I don't see how, just my opinion and nothing more, abductions could be benevolent and not malevolent. To me, if real, the possibilities are very, very dark.
Wade
FeralNormal master
Interesting interview. especially the doctor's contention that the arab spring was the result of a genetically altered generation. I guess the media gave twitter and facebook too much credit. alas, it looks like the unaltered older generation (the ones with the guns, uniforms and political positions) gained the upper hand and the new kids went back to their coffee shops and ipads. But there's always next time.
As far as dna collection and storage, haven't the aliens ever heard of cotton swabs and saliva ?
As far as dna collection and storage, haven't the aliens ever heard of cotton swabs and saliva ?
Wade
FeralNormal master
If the doctor is per chance reading this thread, I would suggest to him that the origin of the arab spring had more to do with a sluggish world economy that exasperated an already shaky condition made possible by nepotisic dictators. When your back is to the wall and you're asked...make that told...to make sacrifices and you have no voice in the matter you react aggressively. Just ask the adults that were kids in 1969 and were subject to being drafted and had no voice because many were too young to vote. No reconsituted dna needed.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Mike, really good Philip K. Dick ideas like this need to be saved and written up as (graphic) novels.
In my post-biological scenario, our entire universe is simply a computer controlled ancestor simulation where we are this future/now museum piece documenting physical reality as humans once knew it - basically a very elaborate ant farm. In this scenario alien abductions and UFO's are just teens hacking the simulation to mess with the 'ants'.
Wade
FeralNormal master
You BOTH should pursue putting down your ideas in book form..I'd read them even if you.used stick figures in lieu of anime.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Wasn't that Turkish UFO video dismissed as 100% hoax - a large boat's upper deck area?
wwkirk
Paranormal Adept
I hadn't heard that. Do you have a link?
That's what I thought too, but when I asked Leir how many degrees above the horizon the object appeared, he said "about 70." That doesn't sound like a boat on the horizon to me (?)
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
There's a lot of different sites that have worked to deconstruct the footage. This one appears to be the most thorough analysis I found. I know nothing about the origins of the poster in terms of how reliable this source is but it's a pretty good look at the Turkish UFO as ship's deck.
As for the 70 degrees above the horizon that's Leir's report and when you look at the original shooters of this video they appear to have their own suspicious history in the annals of Ufology. While stunning to look at, whenever I see UFO videos that go out of their way to show me the ground, or the 'ship' in relation to the moon and going back and forth between the two, instead of just focussing in awe on thus incredible craft that could disappear into the cosmos in a moment's notice, I always feel that there is something that the videographer wants to prove as opposed to just report. Those vids are the suspicious ones as they suggest that there is a construction here and not just a sudden event.
As for the 70 degrees above the horizon that's Leir's report and when you look at the original shooters of this video they appear to have their own suspicious history in the annals of Ufology. While stunning to look at, whenever I see UFO videos that go out of their way to show me the ground, or the 'ship' in relation to the moon and going back and forth between the two, instead of just focussing in awe on thus incredible craft that could disappear into the cosmos in a moment's notice, I always feel that there is something that the videographer wants to prove as opposed to just report. Those vids are the suspicious ones as they suggest that there is a construction here and not just a sudden event.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Regarding the review of Grant Cameron
Personally, if it weren't for all the other evidence for UFOs during the Early Modern Era, and the extensive research that's been done, I'd tend to lean toward the secret test aircraft theory myself. But until someone produces an authentic report of a crashed test aircraft that fit's all the evidence we do know is reasonably accurate ( dates, times, places ) we have nothing to substantiate the Test Aircraft Theory. The closest we've come to that is the Project Mogul theory, and at least we know that was a real project. Let's also not forget that the military people who were there at the time could tell the difference between a flying saucer and a rocket and an airplane, and that the initial report from the base was that what they found was a disk, not an aircraft. But even if it was a test aircraft, it wouldn't make any sense to cover it up with a story about a flying saucer. It's far more likely that if were actually a test aircraft that they would have simply said it was a military aircraft. Lastly, there has been so much investigation on both sides of the issue that researchers would most likely have run across something to indicate it was a crashed aircraft. To think otherwise is pretty much the same as suggesting that all the researchers ( both skeptics and ufologists ) are either inept or lying. That just doesn't seem reasonable.
On The Leir Interview
I began having some serious doubts early in the show and found myself involuntarily shaking my head when he said photons were being accelerated "faster and faster and faster and faster" by collisions in space with high energy particles. That trend continued when he skimmed over how distances to stars are calculated. It's not actually done the way suggested it is. The phenomenon of red shift is based on light, and is related to a star's brightness and color. It's used to tell which direction it's moving, not how far away it is. Distance is often calculated using parallax, which has nothing to do with how fast light travels. The use of atomic decay to calculate distances is an interesting idea, but various decay ratios don't necessitate that the sample actually came from some far away place. It's used more for establishing when than where.
His comments on the SETI program are also very presumptuous in that not all possible candidates for extraterrestrial civilizations are "millions and millions" of light years away, and his "scalar wave" theory is pure pseudoscience. By the time I'd listened this far, it was difficult for me to believe his "strict protocols" were as "strict" as he was suggesting. Then he went on to talk about carbon fibers, which are commonplace these days, and sodium chloride, which is basically just table salt, and which contrary to his explanation has a natural cubic rectangular structure. The "orthorhombic" aspect of his example, if true is a minor curiosity and probably due to the salt being Rochelle Salt, which has a natural orthorhombic structure. I know Leir is a doctor, but based on this interview, I can also see how skeptics become entrenched in their beliefs. If I didn't already know UFOs are real I'd be adding this to my quack file, and I certainly wouldn't let him anywhere near me with a knife!
But what about the reality of alien abduction? Although I have serious reservations about Leir's claims and evidence, there is little doubt that something strange has been going on, and the possibility that alien abductions for the purpose of study and genetic experimentation and or manipulation cannot be entirely ruled out. The common objection that amniocentesis is a dated technology that no advanced race would use may be somewhat short sighted. Amniocentesis isn't strictly about checking the health of a foetus. Recent studies have discovered that amniotic fluid can be a rich source of multipotent mesenchymal, hematopoietic, neural, epithelial, and endothelial stem cells. These kinds of cells are useful in growing all kinds of other cells, and they have to be physically extracted in order for them to be useful. On the topic of the Turkish UFO sighting, I posted some video segments, analysis and what the skeptics have to say here: Faked or Too Good to be True | Page 2 | The Paracast Community Forums
Personally, if it weren't for all the other evidence for UFOs during the Early Modern Era, and the extensive research that's been done, I'd tend to lean toward the secret test aircraft theory myself. But until someone produces an authentic report of a crashed test aircraft that fit's all the evidence we do know is reasonably accurate ( dates, times, places ) we have nothing to substantiate the Test Aircraft Theory. The closest we've come to that is the Project Mogul theory, and at least we know that was a real project. Let's also not forget that the military people who were there at the time could tell the difference between a flying saucer and a rocket and an airplane, and that the initial report from the base was that what they found was a disk, not an aircraft. But even if it was a test aircraft, it wouldn't make any sense to cover it up with a story about a flying saucer. It's far more likely that if were actually a test aircraft that they would have simply said it was a military aircraft. Lastly, there has been so much investigation on both sides of the issue that researchers would most likely have run across something to indicate it was a crashed aircraft. To think otherwise is pretty much the same as suggesting that all the researchers ( both skeptics and ufologists ) are either inept or lying. That just doesn't seem reasonable.
On The Leir Interview
I began having some serious doubts early in the show and found myself involuntarily shaking my head when he said photons were being accelerated "faster and faster and faster and faster" by collisions in space with high energy particles. That trend continued when he skimmed over how distances to stars are calculated. It's not actually done the way suggested it is. The phenomenon of red shift is based on light, and is related to a star's brightness and color. It's used to tell which direction it's moving, not how far away it is. Distance is often calculated using parallax, which has nothing to do with how fast light travels. The use of atomic decay to calculate distances is an interesting idea, but various decay ratios don't necessitate that the sample actually came from some far away place. It's used more for establishing when than where.
His comments on the SETI program are also very presumptuous in that not all possible candidates for extraterrestrial civilizations are "millions and millions" of light years away, and his "scalar wave" theory is pure pseudoscience. By the time I'd listened this far, it was difficult for me to believe his "strict protocols" were as "strict" as he was suggesting. Then he went on to talk about carbon fibers, which are commonplace these days, and sodium chloride, which is basically just table salt, and which contrary to his explanation has a natural cubic rectangular structure. The "orthorhombic" aspect of his example, if true is a minor curiosity and probably due to the salt being Rochelle Salt, which has a natural orthorhombic structure. I know Leir is a doctor, but based on this interview, I can also see how skeptics become entrenched in their beliefs. If I didn't already know UFOs are real I'd be adding this to my quack file, and I certainly wouldn't let him anywhere near me with a knife!
But what about the reality of alien abduction? Although I have serious reservations about Leir's claims and evidence, there is little doubt that something strange has been going on, and the possibility that alien abductions for the purpose of study and genetic experimentation and or manipulation cannot be entirely ruled out. The common objection that amniocentesis is a dated technology that no advanced race would use may be somewhat short sighted. Amniocentesis isn't strictly about checking the health of a foetus. Recent studies have discovered that amniotic fluid can be a rich source of multipotent mesenchymal, hematopoietic, neural, epithelial, and endothelial stem cells. These kinds of cells are useful in growing all kinds of other cells, and they have to be physically extracted in order for them to be useful. On the topic of the Turkish UFO sighting, I posted some video segments, analysis and what the skeptics have to say here: Faked or Too Good to be True | Page 2 | The Paracast Community Forums
Konrad Hartmann
Paranormal Maven
Dr. Leir mentioned during the interview that he and his team initially did not use hypnotic memory regression because of credibility issues, but have since become comfortable employing the technique. I missed the rationale behind that decision. Does anyone know who they are using to conduct hypnosis on people?
What do you guys think about hypnosis being used for abduction research in his work?
What do you guys think about hypnosis being used for abduction research in his work?
wwkirk
Paranormal Adept
He said he's using a student of Budd Hopkins to do the hypnosis.
I think the use of hypnosis is very questionable.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
It's reasonable to think that focused and guided concentration could aid in recollection, but at the same time, there is a lot of room to introduce error. USI developed a Confidence Rating System where accounts that are only substantiated by hypnotic regression are given a lower score than those that consist of unimpaired and uninterrupted conscious memory. However so far, nobody has bothered to put the rating system into use. It's the same old problem of having a backlog of tedious administrative work and no volunteers to do it.
Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
Yea, that was about the time my sceptic hairs got raised.
Personally, I'd love to discount him completely because the topic is as unpleasant as it is. Otoh, if he really is picking out these odd metallic things, where do we expect they come from? How many non-UFO related medical doctors have performed the operations and can confirm the 'cocoon' that these metals are enveloped in?
This is a kind of case where the most interesting aspect of the case is simply discussing the evidence. All the stories and theories about origins etc are basically without value if the evidence is not good enough, so the evidence is the only thing that counts.
I mean: Names of doctors and institutions who performed the surgery. Names, institutions of scientists and metallurgic reports, reports on the supposed radiation and radio-signals. Statements from neutral scientists etc. Everything else is just filler.
Did anyone check up on those things, if credible reports and statements exist neutral/non UFO-related sources, I'm sorry, I admit I'm not feeling the urge to do it myself?
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
I've always found it interesting that it's almost always the people who have a connection to the UFO/abduction scene or some field or group that is peripherally associated with ufology who report these types of things. That's not to say I'm completely dismissing the subject out of hand, I just find it to be odd that we aren't seeing literally millions of implants. If there are millions of abductees out there, like the doctor believes, then shouldn't we be seeing and hearing about a heckuva lot more implants? Or is it only a select group of abductees that are implanted in the first place? If so, what is the criteria for implantation? What are some of the similarities between these people? I've heard theories about Native American and Welsh ancestry and other things, but I don't think there's any definitive numbers or proof, at least none that I'm aware of. If these things are really out there in such large numbers, I have a hard time believing that in this day and age, where people are seeing doctors and engaging in things like preventative medicine in larger numbers than ever before, that these implants are just not showing up in more and more people, if there really are that many people being abducted. Maybe they are and we're just not hearing about it? You would think something as strange as what the Dr. describes would make some kind of waves if it were found by a doctor outside of the UFO community, so why aren't we hearing about it? I definitely think something weird is going on with these people who have these anomalous experiences, but what exactly it is is open to debate, imo anyway.
Wade
FeralNormal master
solid points by both muadib and jimi h. I can't comment on the photon thing because I know jack about that. Twice within half an hour or so dr. lier invoked secrecy commitments. Not an auspicious start, now that's a worthy course of action between patient and doctor but he was using it for sources. earlier I had wondered why there were ANY discoveries because I had figured that if the source of these implants were extra origin..as opposed to terrextrial in nature..why any evidence was found. I naturally figured that an tremendously advanced race such as et would be way craftier than us humans, little did I know that millions were involved as opposed to thousands which shows how little I knew about the phenomenon, so when he did mention that millions were involved I then had to wonder why we are hearing about this from basically two people, bud and roger. are there potentially hundreds of thousands of cases that would otherwise be reported by some country doctor (do they make those anymore ?) but then the mib come in and slap a confidentially clause on them ? I turned 51 last year and I'm overdue for a check up, I'll let you know if anything turns up perhaps you guys will do the same ?
Jimi H.
Paranormal Adept
Yea, I had a flashing vision in my mind of sending like 1K 'civilians' to get x-rays and see the proportion of people with implants. Hard to do in reality, but I'd be surprised if we saw the numbers reflect Leir's research. And it's not like regular people don't get x-rays for all sorts of stuff at non-ufo interested doctors, do implants just go in the bin without further ado?
It's hardly something an unknowing doctor would call the cops about, but if the number was significant, regular doctors should be asking questions by now about what these things are, imo.
Iow., I'm not convinced, though I can't refute it with my current insight.
It's hardly something an unknowing doctor would call the cops about, but if the number was significant, regular doctors should be asking questions by now about what these things are, imo.
Iow., I'm not convinced, though I can't refute it with my current insight.