Dismiss Notice Walter Bosley and Empire of the Wheel II: Friends From Sonora

[wwkirk]

I found this episode hard to follow. Walter's theory is highly complex. It may be true, but I can't evaluate it.

Perhaps someone can help me. How do Butch and Sundance fit into it all?

P.S. I don't know how "dismiss notice" got into the title.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Dismiss? Wow. LOL

I can only explain to the extent that I'm asked, in an interview. That said, I thought Gene and Chris did a worthy job of opening the discussion on my research which, yes, is somewhat complex. As Gene said to me, I can always come back and get into the details a bit more. Of course, the book provides the details of how Butch & Sundance are linked to the milieu via Harriman and German bankers -- and with footnotes. We simply covered what we could in the time allowed.

Amazon.com: Empire of the Wheel II:Friends From Sonora eBook: Walter Bosley: Kindle Store

 

[SLVA]

With all respect due... If it were not for 'the gold standard' tag line of the show, it would probably just be better to say nothing, but based on how some guests get the heavy duty grilling and others not.... in this case I feel compelled to express "difficulty' with the connections, speculations and conclusions made in this show.

 

[Walter Bosley]

As presented during the time allotted for the interview, I could see that. Again, though, I do provide an available source where the clarification and details may be found.

 

[Polterwurst]

Thanks, Chris, for at least mentioning the word "tenuous" once.

...in this case I feel compelled to express "difficulty' with the connections, speculations and conclusions made in this show.

Absolutely. I'd never have thought that I would hit the like button on a post together with lancemoody, but this one does the trick.

What really surprised me, is that the basic premise of the seven "murders" was seemingly taken for granted. Gene didn't even once say "possible" or even "alleged", it was just "the killings" or "the murders". Given that San Bernardino was kind of a holiday resort and many people went there in their free time, even if it was relatively small at the time, things are bound to happen. People who want to commit suicide often do it far away from home, accidental poisonings do happen, especially in a time when there were no strict rules for handling poisonous chemicals (I seem to remember an article about arsenic being used in all kinds of household stuff at around that time).

Serial killers often have a preferred type of victim, but no real commonalities here, it would seem. Granted, seven untimely deaths in the same area within a relatively short time would seem very strange, but obviously, the police didn't suspect any foul play. So why should we?

Btw., why would Mr. Lonabaugh's girlfriend's virginity have been intact? Were they waiting for after marriage? Not kidding here, it just seems strange.

Another thing that strikes me as odd is the occult connection. While I think, many spiritualists at that time would have been steeped in esoteric "theories" like those of Mrs Blavatsky, I don't think that means that they also had to dabble in the occult. Especially the guy from the american SPR, which is a scientific organization and was doing skeptical work, uncovering hoaxes and frauds, would almost certainly not have been interested in occultism. Surely there would have been one or two guys who looked into that particular abyss and lost their balance, but that doesn't mean that anyone involved with spiritism and psycics must inevitably become an occultist. That's like saying that an interest in rock music or video games makes you a potential mass murderer.

But of course, I haven't read the book, so I didn't see all the evidence. What do I know.

 

[Walter Bosley]

"But of course, I haven't read the book, so I didn't see all the evidence. What do I know."

That about sums it up.

Where do I begin?

The element of Etta Place came up late in the interview. I fielded the questions as they were presented to me. The book explains why I think 'Cora Stanton' was Etta Place -- and that the woman was a virgin because she was a secular nun. When you do choose to look into the story of Etta Place, you will find that the assumption that Etta Place was Longabaugh's or anyone's lover has actually never been substantiated. Ever. It remains an assumption. Read the published material on the woman. All such assertions that she was a bordello prostitute and/or Longabaugh's wife/lover are always based on someone's opinion. I have provided my argument and it's titled Empire of the Wheel II: Friends From Sonora. I would be glad to come back onto the show to discuss more specific elements of my research, or after you've familiarized yourself with the details of my theory a little better.

As regards Walter Franklin Prince, the APRS director who was in San Bernardino in 1915 -- and ordained Episcopal Reverend who believed in God, he was a known expert in and proponent of psychic phenomena and aspects of the occult! His investigation into Spiritualist hoaxers was to expose the fraud mediums, not because he was some skeptic of the phenomena, he was quite the opposite. Learning about Prince might better serve your grasp of what I present in my books. Prince was not some atheist hardcore skeptic.

But again, Polterwurst, you and your buddy Lance might better understand my theory and what you're talking about if you two would read the books!

Well, boys, whatever isn't covered in an interview promoting a book is usually covered in the book. That's why the book is promoted. You want the full theory, read the book. If you're still not convinced then, fair enough. Your present position, however, is simply that of someone predisposed to dismiss. No surprise here!

I enjoyed my chat with Chris and Gene. I thought they did a worthy interview based on their knowledge of the material and I'd gladly discuss more aspects of my research with them again whenever they'd be interested in having me on again. There is more to it, as people who've read the books already know.

 

[Randall]

Walter Bosley Show - Recap:

• The first half hour of the show was wasted discussing Bosley's credentials which he had already made clear in the forum aren't relevant to what he's interested in, or what he wants to talk about on the show.
• The show then got into "ley lines" and "energy grids" and "telluric currents" ( all used synonymously ) and how they related to newspaper reports of several people ( 7 ) nearly a century ago ( 1915 ) around San Bernardino California, and may have been connected to local ghost stories of a woman, 35 year old Cora Stanton ( pseudonym ) who was found floating in a lake.
• Bosley then hit on the idea that a serial killer may have been responsible for the deaths because an unidentified poison was reported to be the cause for some of the deaths.
• Bosley then finds that these mysterious deaths are closely aligned to the telluric energy grid in the area.
• Bosley then connects the local railway activity to the case by posing the possibility that those responsible for the deaths may have used the railway in some way that connects it to the telluric current grid lines and the possibility of ritual sacrifice.
• Bosley then connects an illegal arms trade with the local railroad and the likelihood of German and British agents being in the area during the deaths.
• Bosley then touches on the rituals performed by a local "spiritualist temple" and how that is connected to Houdini and the head of local church ( Walter Franklin Prince ) and Aliester Crowley who apparently passed through San Bernardino shortly before Cora Stanton was discovered dead.
• Bosley then connects these early cases to the Zodiac Killer by way of his seeming connection with the mystical telluric grid.
• Gene and Chris posed the question of whether of not other mysterious deaths and/or cattle mutilations might also be connected with the grid lines ( good question ). Bosley didn't know.
• Then Bosley discusses a Frank Rosasco who was found on a train behaving strangely and in possession of a woman's purse, and who was taken in for questioning and later released.
• Bosley the touches on the Sonora Aero Club ( California ) that was run by a group of German immigrants who had allegedly discovered the secret of antigravity and during the 1850s built flying machines and flew them around the locale.
• Bosley then connects the SAC to Charles Dellschau and the mysterious MYMZA ( not sure of spelling there. Maybe MYNZA ) organization who wanted Dellschau to monitor the SAC.
• Bosley connects the airship mystery to the 1915 mystery deaths by way of a common cultural background ( German ) between MYMZA and the possibility of German agents in San Bernardino and in the SAC.
• NOTE: I couldn't find any corroboration for MYMZA or MYNZA on the Internet in the short time I did a search.
• Gene asked whether or not there is any evidence for the antigravity device alleged to have been developed by the SAC. Bosley reiterated the airship mystery stories.
• Gene suggested that the cryptoterrestrial might have something to do with the sightings.
• Bosley suggests that Cora Stanton was a government agent investigating the possibility of a breakaway civilization connected with the airship technology and was discovered by opposition agents who killed her using chloride of mercury poison.
• Just as I was thinking that this sounds like a plot for a movie, Gene took the words right out of my mouth. Bosley heartily agreed. So do I. This has the makings of a different and engaging mystery movie.
• Bosley then goes on to say that he thinks Cora Stanton is actually the accomplice of Butch Cassidy and the wife of Sundance Kid, Etta Place.
• He then connects Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid, and Etta Place to the murder mystery by way of Cassidy's request to the governor of Utah for amnesty for his crimes against the Union Pacific railroad, which are then followed by an overture from Union Pacific that Cassidy turns down, and subsequently Cassidy robs the railway one more time before these murders take place.
• In the end Bosley admits that all the connections he makes are tenuous and unproven and that he could be all wrong, but that when taken together make for an intriguing story ( I agree ).
• Bosley wraps up with a promo for his book ( pictured below ).

How do I rate this show?

out of 5.
Bosley talked with enthusiasm and wove a true crime
mystery together with historical intrigue, urban
legend and the unexplained. Good stuff
and a pleasant surprise !

​

Sundance Kid and Etta Place​

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Quick response: Most listeners never visit the forums, so we covered a little ground there, but not as much as you think.

Besides, Chris and I decide the questions, and this show was loads of fun regardless of what you think of the various connections

 

[ward]

Thanks Walter, Gene and Chris for an enjoyable interview just finished listening to it.

If your introduction to Walter is just on his appearances on the Paracast let me
give you my opinion on Walter.

I've have a history of listening to Walter on Greg's Bishops Show
Radio Misterioso for the past 10 or so years. Those having trouble with understanding elements
of this puzzle such as a break away society would help themselves by listening to archives
of Walter on Radio Misterioso.

I have really enjoyed having seen Walters journey
through these years, it's amazing to see the connections to his personal
history. AFOSI, FBI and a personal history with this strangeness, i would want
no one else i know putting together a mystery like Empire of the Wheel more then Walter.

As with this phenomenon i believe its a spectrum of different elements that make up the whole.
As Walter says it could all be unconnected, but there are many connections in Walters works
that are worthy of exploration. For me already hitting the ground running with Walter i immensely
enjoyed the show this week.

Thanks guys!

 

[Walter Bosley]

Holy cow, Ufology! Thanks!

Ward, you've been paying attention, lol I'm sure I drive Greg nuts sometimes.

We did cover a lot of stuff and there is a lot of stuff in the two books. Rick and I both admit that it's a monster. We also admit that it could have merely been a "run-of-the-mill" serial killer having noting to do with the occult -- but yet, as we present, there is just too much occult symbolism in the situation. We admit it could have just been exactly what the papers reported -- but "innocent" suicides do not explain the poisonings of the children. It is in the historical record that the toxins were ingested through candy and specifically probably an orange -- and were analyzed yet never identified, in an era when poisons et al were well identifiable. The reason we present an occult-motivated scenario is because of all the occult symbolism and circumstances surrounding the events. It can't be reasonably ignored.

I would like to clarify that the murders explored in EOW1 occurred in 1915 and I argue Etta Place was among the victims, working undercover as "Cora Stanton". Butch Cassidy's amnesty situation occurred prior to his going to South America with Longabaugh and Etta Place, fifteen years prior. EOW2 explains my theory about why Butch and Sundance and Etta actually went south and for whom: E. H. Harriman and Kuhn,Loeb representing German bankers financing NYMZA/NJMZa. It's all in the book -- but I have conducted some damned interesting follow-up on the Etta Place assertion which I'll be willing to discuss in the near future.

Thanks again to Chris and Gene for having me on and doing a whirlwinding good job on introducing the Paracast audience to the research Rick and I have done so far. I'll gladly come back on and discuss this stuff further whenever they desire.

 

[Randall]

Holy cow, Ufology! Thanks!

You're welcome. If your story was adapted into a screenplay I'd certainly pay to go see it. The tricky part would be establishing a plot with a main character that an audience can relate to. There are some intriguing possibilities there, but Dellschau comes to mind first because visual artists have a way of looking for and noticing things that the average person misses, and since he was the one who was painting the airships, which are central to the whole story, he must have had some direct access within the hub of all this intrigue. Also Charles Dellschau's life and art is the subject of a monograph that was supposed to have been released this spring. So perhaps there is material there that could help flesh out a character.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Great interview and enjoyable to listen something new. The break away civilisation is not a new theme and the John Carter books about Mars, the late Zachri Zichin alluded to this in his research about the Sumerians and Just wondering if this was not the case just in the USA and other air clubs were operating in other nations? Also wonder how far steam engine technology went prior to its release on the major public.

 

[flipper]

I might of missed it, but one question I would like to have heard asked was: What brought you into investigating and believing in the paranormal? It seems that we all have been touched in some way by the paranormal, including the skeptics or we would not be at this site.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Ufology: If Dellschau was indeed telling the truth, he was sent by NYMZA/NJMZa as a representative to observe and report on the activities and progress of the Sonora Aero Club. That's his story, anyway.

Blowfish: According to Dellschau, there were other clubs in the USA at the time the Sonora club was operating. No reason to assume he suggested there weren't others elsewhere, but he doesn't mention it that I have seen.

Flipper: I was looking into paranormal reports in follow up to my Disneyland book when I learned about the Cora Stanton mystery from my first source on this, librarian Anne Walker.

 

[Pararescueman]

First, I would like to thank Mr Walter Bosley for his service to our country.
Second, I would like to commend Mr. Gene Steinberg on never taking a break, a new show every week. This week I think a rerun would have been better served.

I tried, I really tried, I listened to the show twice. Trying to tie seven alleged murders, to tellurinc currents. Then to activity at railway yard related to tellurinc currents to German and British agents in a illegal arms trade and to some kind of scacifice. A serial killer

Then a German areo club that cracked antigravity propulsion in mid 1800s. (Really!)
It only digresses even further and further to the point to the absurd.

I am sorry, but to suppose all that is tied into 7 alleged murders!!! I think Occam's Razor principle would apply to the alleged murders. Not some grandiose conspiracy involving a break away civilization, airships, telluric currents, Butch Cassidy, poison, illegal arms trade, British and German agents.

I do not write books, but I sure as hell buy a lot them. That interview, in no way shape or form, even in slightest made me want to buy his books. Actually just the opposite, there is no way I would buy it. Having to suspend disbelief to tie all this together is even to far fetched me.

 

[Polterwurst]

Rather than a search for truth, this does seem to me like an exercise in obfuscating the truth by connecting so many dots from so many angles (serial murders, occultism, airships, outlaws, espionage) that the resulting picture gets totally obscured.

Even as a movie or mystery novel, one would have to concentrate on only a few of the connections, to make it more believable. Otherwise you would end up with a surreal conspiracy themed comedy, something that could have been written by Robert Anton Wilson.

I see why people may find some of these connections fascinating. But when it came to german proto-Nazis flying anti-gravity airships over the US, and of course that lends more credibility to the theory of "the Bell" as an antigravitic craft heralding modern UFOs, I just wanted to cry. Sorry, I'm allergic to that kind of stuff.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Pararescueman, then the good thing about the interview is that it saved you money.

I don't hard sell. Either folks are open to it or they aren't. But to be fair, I'm not trying to tie seven deaths to telluric currents, I'm reporting that seven deaths were indeed tied to telluric currents according to the geomorphology provided to my co-author and I. The idea that they were is as simple as the perpetrator -- IF they were murders, and I suspect they were -- knowing how to identify said currents and committing the acts in those places. How we did it was requesting the geomorphology be provided blind, i.e. the person doing it was not aware of the locations associated with the victims. The post comparison showed the connections.

The very nature of the material is aimed at readers open to the rather wild nature of the possibilities presented in the books. I would also like to clarify that the books cover different aspects of this big weird thing I've found which is, admittedly, not for everyone. As a matter of fact, I consider my audience for these books to be particularly small. I cannot prove the theoretical aspects of the books sufficiently for most people and least of all skeptics. I don't even try, merely I present what I'm finding, provide an analysis and offer my opinion. But Rick and I leave the reader to make up their own mind and it's better that you have before reading the books because I sincerely don't like readers to feel as if they wasted their money. If anything, and this is admittedly odd, I tell several people to NOT buy the books.

This is another reason why we do interviews. To save people the trouble of dissatisfying reading experience.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

If authors wanted to "save people the trouble of dissatisfying reading" experiences, they'd stop writing. You can't satisfy everyone, Walter. Just keep on keeping on.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Polterwurst...

Now I'm obfuscating?

Let's just agree that you're not interested in my research. That's cool. I'd rather you save your money and not waste your time. Again, the interview served a purpose for you.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Gene, I intend to. There's a third book coming in December (if it's ready).