Deception in the ufo field

[BrandonD]

It seems that those here on the forum are all reasonably well-versed in the ufo literature and cases, so it occurred to me that it might be interesting to have a little round-table brainstorm...

After reading and hearing the old and modern ufo cases, what are some of the assumptions about the ufo phenomenon that you believe we can make with a reasonable degree of certainty?

Here are mine:

1) There are one or more intelligent sources behind the ufo phenomenon (ie, not all ufos can be explained by natural phenomena and psychological abberations)

2) People are being intentionally deceived by at least one of these intelligent sources. They want to be seen, but they don't want to be seen for what they are. They want to be seen as something else.

---That's all I have now, please add to this if you feel there are others.

If we can accept only those first 2 points, I think this might clear up alot of the wacky cases like Meier/Horn and Adamski. Cases where seemingly sane and intelligent people are supporting wacky ideas.

If there is an intelligence behind the ufo phenomenon, and it wants to deceive people as to what its true identity is, then it only makes sense that this intelligence would contact suggestible people in positions of influence and direct them *away* from the truth. These people of influence would then misdirect the masses.

Why would seemingly sane and intelligent people follow the zany ideas of a certain person? I personally don't think it can be reduced to just "one of those things" that someone like Horn would follow Meier, for example.

Consider a scenario:

A legitimate intelligence contacts Meier, and fills his head with foolish and false ideas. Events are arranged so that some of his close associates experience a few of these paranormal events, and thus they become convinced of Meier's "authenticity". The cult is born.

After Meier spreads the word and gathers followers, the job has been done, so the intelligence disappears. However, when time goes by and no additional paranormal events occur, Meier's followers reasonably begin to doubt his contact with the space brothers. The intelligence is now long gone, so Meier fakes photos in order to hang on to the followers he's gained.

Now take into consideration the first 2 points which I think we can reasonably assume. With that in mind, I find the above scenario more reasonable than the idea that a man (with no unique ideas and second-rate photos) gathered such a rabid following of seemingly sane and normal people, based upon nothing paranormal at all. I suspect that something legitimately paranormal initially occurred around this man. But the intention of this intelligence was deception, and everything that has occurred since then was in fact intended by this intelligence.

On the plus side, this runs alongside the Vallee ideas of this intelligence as a sort of human psychological "control-system".

On the minus side, this does not fit neatly into the "either he is a charlatan or he is the real deal" dichotomy. For people without flexible minds who like to make snap judgements, this would be a hard thing to digest.

 

[BrandonD]

Man I am long-winded, but I also want to mention that I think this deception angle explains a few more events going on right now in the ufo community at large. Take for instance, Steven Greer and his Disclosure Project. It certainly seemed to have started sanely enough, but then went rapidly down nutty lane. I even donated money to them after watching Out of the Blue many years ago, because I thought the organization had great promise.

What if, perhaps, this Disclosure Project was recognized by the intelligence behind ufos as an organization that could legitimately threaten the shroud of deception held in place? Who would be the person to "contact" who could effectively neutralize the threat that the Disclosure Project posed? It would of course be Dr. Greer. He even claims some sort of contact, as I understand it. I see no reason to disbelieve him out of hand, and so the possibility stands that he was also contacted by this intelligence, which I think filled his head with ideas that effectively discredited and neutralized the Disclosure Project.

I wonder if a researcher more skilled and knowledgable than myself could start out with this hypothesis - that one motivation of the ufo intelligence is to contact individuals and organizations that have the potential to damage the deception held in place, and the intelligence takes steps to neutralize the threat.

If this hypothesis were true, then perhaps one could gather all the ufo "contactees" over the years who appeared to be sane and honest guys, but whose stories just seemed questionable. Some examples might be Adamski, Horn, Jim Sparks, among others. Perhaps a large enough sample of these people would show they have something in common.

 

[tommyball]

All in all you made some excellent points; however I have mixed feelings about the issue of deception. While from our present point of view, I agree that deception is what appears to be happening; deception is merely our perception of a behavior of another intelligence that is currently beyond our comprehension.

I tend to agree with David's theory that once all is revealed, it will be far beyond our wildest hypotheses. Our vanity and naivete has in my opinion kept us so much in the dark with respect to this and other phenomena that though deception seems to be a safe assumption today, it is still only an assumption.

I'd also like to add a third:

3) The US Government has more interest in the UFO phenomena (and probably knows more about it) than it publicly admits.

-todd.

 

[Mogwa]

I think it far more likely that some of the entities responsible for the UFO enigma are an integral part of this world's status quo, or even its originators.

 

[ondafritz]

Expect anything. Expect everything.

 

[ondafritz]

Now back to football. Go Steelers!

 

[tommyball]

The deception idea does fit in with Greer. I've mentioned my issues with his detour down nutty lane in a few other threads, but maybe he's a US Intelligence supported disinformation agent, maybe he has been contacted by an otherworldly intelligence whose intentions are to undermine his disclosure efforts.

I do believe Greer's sightings/experiences began as a child. Of course, those memories could be easily placed by extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings.

-todd.

 

[tommyball]

Expect anything. Expect everything.

Well said. However, as a Ravens fan I shall not (nor am I allowed to by Maryland state law) cheer for the Steelers.

-todd.

 

[Tommy Allison]

There is a real effort, and real agenda about making anyone, or any group who deals in the study, and science of extra-terrestrials to look crazy.

If you read enough on the subject, you will find that most people who start off in the field, who have great promise take a turn for the crazy. They start talking about how they are being consulted about Radar Systems, and Infra-red tracking on UFO's, and they even claim that MIB's attack their secretaries.

There are those who peddle skulls around claiming they are extra-terrestrial in origin, when they know that the FBI Lab at Quantico could give them a definitive DNA result in about 3 weeks.

There are those who are selling books by the truckloads, t-shirts, DVD"s on how to be an earthly ambassador, how to contact ET's, how they all live on the dark side of the moon, or inside the hollow earth. Every single one of these people are selling you something.

These people make a lot of money, and for what? Taking advantage of other people who want to know about the phenomena, but don't have the ability to discern truth from fiction.

I've met a few of these tards, and got to know how they work. They're con artists. They are propped up deliberately so that the masses will never know, or trust the truth when it comes out.

When you take a hard look at any and all of the people peripherally involved with the UFO Phenomenon, they all seem legitimate, and then they start talking about money. It's at that point that you should immediately tune them out, because they're not really after the truth, they're after your money.

When I see and read things about sightings, every time I get the same feeling. I hope that this is the one that is real, that is legit. Well, some have been, some haven't. I personally have seen things I cannot explain, and had some startling revelations of my own this year that have made me distrust my own memories.

I've come to the conclusion that more often than not, we see what we want to see. We hear what we want to hear. When we get past what we want, and get to the truth, it might actually be scarier than what we hoped for in the first place.

The agenda is very simple. Create a inborn belief that UFO's and Aliens are hoaxes, and nonsense. Make sure that the belief is ingrained in every person, in every walk of life. The people who have the agenda, have the greatest amount to lose, POWER. Power over people.

If there were truly Extra-terrestrials walking among us, and we were to find that our leaders had sold us out for baubles and technology, their asses would be hanging from lamp posts. Churches would burn. People would be so angry that they'd been lied to, it would cause the streets to run red with those who had perpetrated the lies in the first place.

It will never come to that though. The day that the ET's make their presence public, again, something that will never happen, will be the day that all these losers, liars and fakes will all scream to the high heavens that they were right, and everyone else was wrong.

When in fact they were just being used as the liars and fakes that they are.

My distrust in the UFO community comes from first hand knowledge of a few of these frauds, and that is exactly what they are. They live a life of absolute fakery and fraudulent claims. One went of their way to malign me to a few people, after I caught the sonofabitch in a big stinking lie.

It's a shame that some of these pukes have their senior citizen status and line of bs to immunize them against the truth. Their claims of working in Intelligence, their idiocy with the CIA, all of it nonsense. I'm being longwinded because the agenda itself is very much the same.

If you choose to believe the lies of these clowns, then you have already perpetuated the lie, and that's how the lies continue on to become truth. Joseph Goebbels, as diabolical as he was was the master of making lies into truth. The same process is being applied to the UFO community.

I just wish people would wise up.

If people were truly and objectively interested in UFOs, and the whole Alien contact thing, they'd be out there every day, ON THEIR OWN, with camcorders in hand, taking notes, video, film, interviews, whatever, and stowing that knowledge away for an unbiased authority.

I think most of the MUFON people are pretty legit, but then again, half the losers who write books are members, or have close ties.

I guess what really has rubbed me the wrong way is how many retarded books there are about how people have experienced all kinds of stuff, and yet 99 percent of it is so laughably fraudulent it's not even funny. Even worse, is that it puts money in the pockets of the idiots who sell this crap.

 

[CapnG]

I think as a sort of corollary to what Tommy Allison said, we absolutely need to include self-deception, both imposed and voluntary. People simply do NOT want to have to deal with this stuff. The reason anyone shouts "He's crazy!" the second someone else claims to have had an encounter or seen a UFO is because they don't want to consider the possibilities if he's not crazy. People like their world to be small, or at least managable. What's that line from Network? "Just leave us alone! Give us our colour tvs and our golf clubs and our steel-belted radial tires and we promise we won't say anything, just leave us alone!"

Nice and small and managable. Even the people who accept these ideas as POSSIBLE don't tend to think of them as probable, let alone as fact. A real encounter for them would be as disruptive as it would be for anyone else, moreso in fact, if the particular incident did not fit their predetermined ideas of just what the hell is going on.

And then there's the hoaxers, who seem to have found a wonderous new ally in YouTube. Every couple of week's it seems there's a new "startling, absolutely real!" UFO video posted, I just saw one go up today that was supposedly shot in France. So, when it comes to deception I often wonder if aliens or governments would need to go to all that trouble, when we apparently do it so much better by ourselves.

 

[Tommy Allison]

It's easy to fake stuff so that the average moron will fall for it. Lots of people want to believe in UFO's. The problem isn't so much that they want to believe in something, is that they're easily duped into believing what they see.

I can make a very convincing UFO video with some effort. Someone like David Biedny would have it picked apart in no time, because that's his field of expertise. He KNOWS what he's talking about. What David ought to do, is write a book on fakery, frauds, and those frauds who like to make stuff up to fool the public.

I would buy that book, and encourage others to do the same, as it adds something substantial, and critical to the UFO genre. Anything that takes away some assclowns ability to lie and defraud you out of your money, is a positive thing, and a GOOD THING.

I believe that this planet is not alone in the universe when it comes to harboring life. Intelligent life however, is debatable. When I see people like Steven Greer making a pretty good living duping people out of their cash with his nonsense, I realize I'm in the wrong field entirely. I should be faking UFO Videos, making Alien Abduction films, and pretending to be something I'm not, because I sure as hell don't make as much money as I'd like to as an artist.

There are beings from other worlds. Mathematics more than gives proof of it, by the sheer amount of space this universe holds, and by the very probability of even the most infinitecimal percentage of planets likely hold life.

What I cannot understand, is if there is life on other worlds, why are these visitors keeping their presence a secret? Surely if life was so uncommon, that they'd be overjoyed to find ANYTHING that bordered on intelligent. This is why I believe that if there are aliens, that their agenda isn't beneficial to the whole of humanity, and only is beneficial to a select few who pretend to lead, and speak for the whole of humanity.

This country, this planet will never know the truth about anything until the day comes when there is no benefit to hiding it.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I tend to agree with David's theory that once all is revealed, it will be far beyond our wildest hypotheses.

I tend to think that the ETH is the most probable of all the theories - I'm not saying that the ETH explains all UFO sightings, just that the idea that ETIs exist and have visited Earth, seems perfectly logical to me. IMO, the case against the ETH is much more improbable.

Clark's 3 laws:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[BrandonD]

What I cannot understand, is if there is life on other worlds, why are these visitors keeping their presence a secret? Surely if life was so uncommon, that they'd be overjoyed to find ANYTHING that bordered on intelligent. This is why I believe that if there are aliens, that their agenda isn't beneficial to the whole of humanity, and only is beneficial to a select few who pretend to lead, and speak for the whole of humanity.

What you mention here is one of the keys in my opinion. There are a few useful passages in the bible, and one of them is "By their fruits ye shall know them." I think this phrase is incredibly accurate, and applicable to this situation.

If the intelligence behind ufos represent "higher beings" who have been helping the humans on this planet to evolve, then it makes sense that we would see a steady increase in the general happiness and peace on this planet. That's certainly not what I see. What I see is merely a maintenance of the status quo - war, unhappiness, and confusion. Human beings are not becoming more civilized, we are like gorillas with increasingly fancier toys.

 

[BrandonD]

I think it far more likely that some of the entities responsible for the UFO enigma are an integral part of this world's status quo, or even its originators.

That's my feeling as well.

 

[BrandonD]

All in all you made some excellent points; however I have mixed feelings about the issue of deception. While from our present point of view, I agree that deception is what appears to be happening; deception is merely our perception of a behavior of another intelligence that is currently beyond our comprehension.

I tend to agree with David's theory that once all is revealed, it will be far beyond our wildest hypotheses. Our vanity and naivete has in my opinion kept us so much in the dark with respect to this and other phenomena that though deception seems to be a safe assumption today, it is still only an assumption.

I agree with you on this. In the larger scale it's possible that this intelligence is a necessary mechanism created as an obstacle for humans, with the resulting struggle creating something which may be ultimately beneficial to the greater universe.

The image of boiling water to create the proper temperature to cook soup comes to mind. The water might be terribly suffering, but it is necessary in order to be transformed into something else.

Of course, I happen to be a human at the moment, so I can't help disliking the fact that this intelligence appears to have a negative influence on humans.

I'd also like to add a third:

3) The US Government has more interest in the UFO phenomena (and probably knows more about it) than it publicly admits.

Since this one involves human agencies, and thanks to John Greenwald Jr, I'd say this point can go beyond a reasonable assumption and be stated as a definite fact.

 

[jritzmann]

I think youre right on the deceptive nature, though like anything thing else in this area of study, ya have to look for it.

This reminds me somewhat of the Meier follower's "plausible deniability" factor, as they call it. What that essentially says in regard to his case is that the "aliens" make his ship photos and films look like theyre tethered models so that believers (or "those able to handle it" as they'll tell you) can have proof, but debunkers have a way out.

It's all a "way out" for Meierites of course. While no one can surmise the "alien" mind (of course Meier's supporters dont mind to, and do it often), this excuse gives them a tactical weapon to throw out at any would be dissenting view. It's a last ditch effort to convince themselves that even if the strings are found, (and they have been as I found them as well as others) they can explain it to themselves and keep believing.

This of course means any fake UFO photo thru the history of frauds...could be real.

Sometimes a fake is just a fake. If you look at Meier's history, you'll see he's bounced from one job to another, been in prison, and institutionalized. He's made one wild claim after another and most likely in my opinion had plenty of time to concoct his entire story. You all realize in addition to his UFO tales he's also and alledged co-discoverer of a biblical text that, of course is revelational...and just happens to coinside with Plejaren "teachings". Of course the original scrolls have been destroyed...Meier has typed it all from memory. (Insert "you gotta be f^&kin' kidding face here)

No one can really say if he's ever had any real experience...and truthfully at this stage, who cares. He's buried it under garbage for years.

Greer, has always been goofy. This isnt a recent detour. He's always done essentially what Meier has, played a role. Many years ago I was told by a couple of investigators who were very public, that CSETI was as close to a cult as you could get in the UFO field. I had my own experience with them, again many years ago, in Gulf Breeze. I dont mind saying Greer was about the most goofy individual I'd yet met. But just like Meier, he's got his devoted supporters. Look at where he started...CSETI. And everyone here should know what they do...but that wasnt wide enough base, nor attracting enough members (i.e. money) so we get the disclosure project which is supposed to be mondo credible, and on we go. EDIT: Video of Greer at his other project AERO...yet another avenue:
Again has Greer ever had a legitimate experience? No idea. Do I believe he can levitate? Gimme a break. Can he vector in alien craft? You'll be surprised, but he might. Nothing as close, as often, or as wild as he claims, but I'm of the opinion if you go actively looking for "them" you'll find them, or vice versa. It's entirely possible he's seen them with the group.

But it's nothing any one of you couldnt do too if so inclined in my opinion. Save yourself $800.00.

In my opinion both of these UFO figureheads dont need alien intervention to be deceptive. It's just part of the job. There's always going to be customers, as one is born every minute. And these 2, are only 2 examples.

There's many more.

Could real alien contact be mispercieved and then built upon? Sure. Is that direct deception on the part of "aliens"? Or is it on our end? Could be both.

I think the most obvious is whats already been mentioned, that they wont show us what they really are. I havent bought the "alien" thing for years...and the minute I knew of the deceptive nature beyond the obvious, how funny, the enigma ceased presenting itself to me. As in stopped cold.

Just like someone who's been caught.

More later, time for work.
~J

 

[BrandonD]

I think youre right on the deceptive nature, though like anything thing else in this area of study, ya have to look for it.

This reminds me somewhat of the Meier follower's "plausible deniability" factor, as they call it. What that essentially says in regard to his case is that the "aliens" make his ship photos and films look like theyre tethered models so that believers (or "those able to handle it" as they'll tell you) can have proof, but debunkers have a way out.

It's all a "way out" for Meierites of course. While no one can surmise the "alien" mind (of course Meier's supporters dont mind to, and do it often), this excuse gives them a tactical weapon to throw out at any would be dissenting view. It's a last ditch effort to convince themselves that even if the strings are found, (and they have been as I found them as well as others) they can explain it to themselves and keep believing.

This of course means any fake UFO photo thru the history of frauds...could be real.

Sometimes a fake is just a fake. If you look at Meier's history, you'll see he's bounced from one job to another, been in prison, and institutionalized. He's made one wild claim after another and most likely in my opinion had plenty of time to concoct his entire story. You all realize in addition to his UFO tales he's also and alledged co-discoverer of a biblical text that, of course is revelational...and just happens to coinside with Plejaren "teachings". Of course the original scrolls have been destroyed...Meier has typed it all from memory. (Insert "you gotta be f^&kin' kidding face here)

No one can really say if he's ever had any real experience...and truthfully at this stage, who cares. He's buried it under garbage for years.

Greer, has always been goofy. This isnt a recent detour. He's always done essentially what Meier has, played a role. Many years ago I was told by a couple of investigators who were very public, that CSETI was as close to a cult as you could get in the UFO field. I had my own experience with them, again many years ago, in Gulf Breeze. I dont mind saying Greer was about the most goofy individual I'd yet met. But just like Meier, he's got his devoted supporters. Look at where he started...CSETI. And everyone here should know what they do...but that wasnt wide enough base, nor attracting enough members (i.e. money) so we get the disclosure project which is supposed to be mondo credible, and on we go. EDIT: Video of Greer at his other project AERO...yet another avenue:
Again has Greer ever had a legitimate experience? No idea. Do I believe he can levitate? Gimme a break. Can he vector in alien craft? You'll be surprised, but he might. Nothing as close, as often, or as wild as he claims, but I'm of the opinion if you go actively looking for "them" you'll find them, or vice versa. It's entirely possible he's seen them with the group.

But it's nothing any one of you couldnt do too if so inclined in my opinion. Save yourself $800.00.

In my opinion both of these UFO figureheads dont need alien intervention to be deceptive. It's just part of the job. There's always going to be customers, as one is born every minute. And these 2, are only 2 examples.

There's many more.

Could real alien contact be mispercieved and then built upon? Sure. Is that direct deception on the part of "aliens"? Or is it on our end? Could be both.

I think the most obvious is whats already been mentioned, that they wont show us what they really are. I havent bought the "alien" thing for years...and the minute I knew of the deceptive nature beyond the obvious, how funny, the enigma ceased presenting itself to me. As in stopped cold.

Just like someone who's been caught.

More later, time for work.
~J

Yeah, I haven't read those guys' back histories, which is sounding like they've been schemers all along.

Sometimes I might think too highly of the general person, it's difficult for me to imagine ordinary people just blindly following a guy with mediocre ideas, mediocre photos and no paranormal experiences.

 

[CapnG]

The image of boiling water to create the proper temperature to cook soup comes to mind. The water might be terribly suffering, but it is necessary in order to be transformed into something else.

An interesting analogy. I wonder if it may be something else though. We tend to take a human-centric view of things (being human, after all). Rather than soup, we may simply be water in which they are broiling to become complete. At the end of the day, we may wind up being discarded, a means to an end with no greater relevance to anything. It would certainly account for the deception.

 

[BrandonD]

An interesting analogy. I wonder if it may be something else though. We tend to take a human-centric view of things (being human, after all). Rather than soup, we may simply be water in which they are broiling to become complete. At the end of the day, we may wind up being discarded, a means to an end with no greater relevance to anything. It would certainly account for the deception.

Yeah I think we're kinda saying the same thing. Because you know, the soup means nothing to the water, its only use is to the person drinking the soup. The water is serving a greater intelligence, and if it saw the truth and could talk it would say "I am nothing but FOOD!"

An interesting point in your post is this phrase: "we may wind up being discarded". It's a subject I often wonder about (and I haven't nearly reached an answer), what exactly ARE we? Are we just the physical animal homo sapiens? If so, then I'd agree that "we" are entirely discarded when we've served the unseen purposes of the greater reality.

If on the other hand, I am something other than just the physical body, then when the body is discarded every part of "me" that identifies with it will surely be in torment and terror, but that is not the entire experience.

I really identify with the old sufism texts. In their beliefs, it is said that no one is born with a soul, but it must be forged through conscious labors and intentional suffering. In that case, perhaps some people are indeed entirely discarded after death because they lived from cradle to grave identifying only with their physical body and brain. They ignored the very reasonable and natural impulse that there is indeed "something else", the knowledge of which can only be achieved through effort and struggle.

Just as a side note, I don't presume to know the bigger picture, I just can't help getting involved in these discussions because they're so interesting to me.

 

[CapnG]

An interesting point in your post is this phrase: "we may wind up being discarded". It's a subject I often wonder about (and I haven't nearly reached an answer), what exactly ARE we? Are we just the physical animal homo sapiens? If so, then I'd agree that "we" are entirely discarded when we've served the unseen purposes of the greater reality.

It may be the case that we have already been discarded and that earth is simply the landfill for some higher beings. We could simply be walking, talking refuse, completely delusional in our place in the universe. That too could account for the deception. Whoever THEY are, it's unlikely they'd want us to get to a point where we're actually aware of what we are.

In that case, perhaps some people are indeed entirely discarded after death because they lived from cradle to grave identifying only with their physical body and brain.

Hmmm... I sort of fit into this catagory but backwards. I have seen things, experienced things, know others who have seen more and yet... I can never fully rid my self of this nagging sensation of disconnect, it's why I brought up the notion of self deception earlier.

Specifically, the idea that these things we encounter; aliens, ghosts, monsters, while "real" are not what we assume them to be. I also cannot ignore the likelyhood that we, being aware of our own mortality desperately want, desperately NEED to believe we are more than talking meat with eyes because to accept that is to realize life is beyond futile. So we tell stories to ourselves, invent narratives, twist perceptions, cling to anything that suggests to us there is a "more" because it provides relief from the horror of pure existence. But what if there's not? That is to say, what if we're not part of the "more"?

Think of a flashlight. The batteries inside the flashlight could well be us. We're aware of a "more" because of the inside of the tube but we don't know what that "more" is or what it's function could be but nevertheless, we ASSUME we're part of it. We exist for a time in this state and then, at the end of our lifespan are discarded, never having seen the light we were used to create. Tools to be used up and thrown away.