Stagger Lee
Paranormal Adept
Hynek should have gotten more camera time on Close Encounters 3rd Kind.
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Debunking Jacques Vallee
- Thread starter BoyintheMachine
- Start date
Hynek should have gotten more camera time on Close Encounters 3rd Kind.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
Hynek was not championing against the ETH/nuts and bolts like Vallee was. In fact, it was Hynek who was swayed by Vallee and not vice versa.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
You're basically saying something analogous to taking a creationist vs. evolutionist, or old school approach to the problem. Vallée, like Keel, has injected new ways of seeing; because, the nuts and bolts paradigm is not enough to explain what is taking place.
We're not just passive observors in this conndrum. There is also an interaction between us and the UFO/UAP that suggests intentionality, that we may on occasion experience internally, that appears to be connected to our history at specific points in time, that shifts in its appearance, is even something we appear to be co-creators in at times. Let's face it; it's a highly complex, dynamic phenomenon that we have been interacting with in a limited and inexplicable manner for quite some time. In short, it is an evolving phenomenon that appreciates new paradigms to study it. That old nut and bolt theory is rusty.
MacDonald and Hill have explored the physical sciences at work and they're just speculating based on the limited, weird evidence that is available. Vallée is pointing out new directions, new contexts, and is doing what a good scientist should do, which is research fresh, undisturbed evidence as often as possible, collect and notate as much evidence as possible and seek out patterns where possible, He's at least got new theories - you got game?
Duensing suggested that he has written the software to do that mass, big data tabulation & analysis as funded by Bigelow to see what unrestricted and unbiased, tabulations will yield. That sounds like a good use of resources as opposed to leaving your organization's decades old collection of UFO files with some crooks, or peddling your abduction tapes. Integrity is difficult to assess and come by in this field. Vallée is one of the few legits that has climbed some different hilla and has shook the tree of ufology good and hard to see what shakes loose.
What do you think we should be doing with the data, and who is going to find it & fund it?
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How do we know that? How would we know what the phenomena 'appreciate'?
I agree that Duensing's project might be a good use of resources. I'm interested in finding out what he shakes loose.
I think we should be holding on to, and continuing to study, all of it. A significant portion of it does relate to 'nuts and bolts' [physical and material] effects that most probably have physical and material causes.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
that's just turn of phrase. as the phenomenon shifts and changes over time, which it has, we get to see it in new ways through new perspectives, for it is multi-faceted is it not? i appreciate seeing it in new ways, instead of still trying to prove a crashed ship in the desert. however, I do look forward to hearing more about Burroughs and the V.A. acknowledgement of physical effects. though parts of the Rendelsham narrative are as surreal and bizarre as all get out, with only some allusions to nuts and bolts.
sorry, but that was Duensing suggesting that Vallée had written the software to undertake big data mining of the UFO event. i wasn't clear about that, but i do think that's very exciting.
agreed. finding, studying and working with physical data, when it appears, is certainly the most significant part of the phenomenon - these are the hardcore cases that interact with us and our environment. these truly are the magnificent cases, but the UFO at times also appears to be either extensions, manipulations or illusions of material objects and that requires other perspectives, no?
Obviously neither man was blinkered enough to think that this was an either/or question. Do you have a source for the information provided in your second paragraph? My impression of Hynek is that he might well have expressed that opinion. I'd also like to know the source for the underscored portion of your first paragraph above. Thanks.
When did Vallee write that software and what did his data mining shake loose? Was the result the book he published four years ago ?
amazon description:
"One of the most ambitious works of paranormal investigation of our time, here is an unprecedented compendium of pre-twentieth-century UFO accounts, written with rigor and color by two of today's leading investigators of unexplained phenomena.
In the past century, individuals, newspapers, and military agencies have recorded thousands of UFO incidents, giving rise to much speculation about flying saucers, visitors from other planets, and alien abductions. Yet the extraterrestrial phenomenon did not begin in the present era. Far from it. The authors of Wonders in the Sky reveal a thread of vividly rendered-and sometimes strikingly similar- reports of mysterious aerial phenomena from antiquity through the modern age. These accounts often share definite physical features- such as the heat felt and described by witnesses-that have not changed much over the centuries. Indeed, such similarities between ancient and modern sightings are the rule rather than the exception.
In Wonders in the Sky, respected researchers Jacques Vallee and Chris Aubeck examine more than 500 selected reports of sightings from biblical-age antiquity through the year 1879-the point at which the Industrial Revolution deeply changed the nature of human society, and the skies began to open to airplanes, dirigibles, rockets, and other opportunities for misinterpretation represented by military prototypes. Using vivid and engaging case studies, and more than seventy-five illustrations, they reveal that unidentified flying objects have had a major impact not only on popular culture but on our history, on our religion, and on the models of the world humanity has formed from deepest antiquity.
Sure to become a classic among UFO enthusiasts and other followers of unexplained phenomena, Wonders in the Sky is the most ambitious, broad-reaching, and intelligent analysis ever written on premodern aerial mysteries."
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
As discussed on Radio Misterioso they were following what Bishop has been advocating for quite some time now: disband large organizations, work in small serious collectives and do not report your results except to other similar cells of investigators. Private funding would be needed to complete such a model which is essentially what Bigelow did with The Ranch. He also took over data collection for all UFO reports. I suspect we regular people will not hear anything about the results of such ventures for many years to come. Already those talks and discussions are happening behind closed doors amongst those thinkers and investigators who are able to travel in such circles.
Most of what we talk about here and the culture of UFO studies is a kind of ufological propaganda. Talking openly about the phenomenon has caused its own feedback loop influencing our perceptions of the phenomenon, essentially making us co-creators of the UFO experience. Who knows how long this has been part of human sociology? This segregation of large scale scientific research will be the next best steps in understanding something else about this mystery. Because what we see in society about this discussion of UFO's is primarily a loose history of fragments, sociological effects and uncertain speculation. It is a mixed mélange of fact and fiction and private research is the best next step instead of all this circus around the Kodachromes.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
You're basically saying something analogous to taking a creationist vs. evolutionist, or old school approach to the problem. Vallée, like Keel, has injected new ways of seeing; because, the nuts and bolts paradigm is not enough to explain what is taking place.
We're not just passive observors in this conndrum. There is also an interaction between us and the UFO/UAP that suggests intentionality, that we may on occasion experience internally, that appears to be connected to our history at specific points in time, that shifts in its appearance, is even something we appear to be co-creators in at times. Let's face it; it's a highly complex, dynamic phenomenon that we have been interacting with in a limited and inexplicable manner for quite some time. In short, it is an evolving phenomenon that appreciates new paradigms to study it. That old nut and bolt theory is rusty.
MacDonald and Hill have explored the physical sciences at work and they're just speculating based on the limited, weird evidence that is available. Vallée is pointing out new directions, new contexts, and is doing what a good scientist should do, which is research fresh, undisturbed evidence as often as possible, collect and notate as much evidence as possible and seek out patterns where possible, He's at least got new theories - you got game?
Duensing suggested that he has written the software to do that mass, big data tabulation & analysis as funded by Bigelow to see what unrestricted and unbiased, tabulations will yield. That sounds like a good use of resources as opposed to leaving your organization's decades old collection of UFO files with some crooks, or peddling your abduction tapes. Integrity is difficult to assess and come by in this field. Vallée is one of the few legits that has climbed some different hilla and has shook the tree of ufology good and hard to see what shakes loose.
What do you think we should be doing with the data, and who is going to find it & fund it?
The problem with Ufology is it's anti-science nature. Ironically, one of the proponents of this anti-science leaning is Vallee. This is extremely odd because he is after all a computer scientist. However, it's true no less. If the UFO phenomenon is not real in our understanding of real, i.e. nuts and bolts, then it is not worth studying. The reason being? Let's say Vallee is correct and there is a driving force behind UFOs, fairies, gods, ghosts, demons, etc., that is manipulating us. How can this be proved? The answer is of course it can't. Since it can't ever be proven true it's a dead end street and does not increase our understanding of the phenomenon. In effect, all it is is mental masturbation. It's cool and entertaining to ponder but it's not fertile and doesn't lead anywhere.
Whatever your take on the phenomenon is, if it's not based in reality or if it can't ever be proven, as in it has zero chance of ever being proven, then it's a waste of time.
Nuts and bolts is pretty much it. It's based in reality and it's possible to prove. It's the way to go. The problem is that people don't respect how difficult it would be to gather proof. People are impatient and think that since such evidence just doesn't fall into their laps then therefore we need to invoke something more mysterious.
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BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
Hynek made public statements that he no longer supported the ETH/ "nuts and bolts" and referenced the work of Vallee. However, those who claimed to have known Hynek claimed that Hynek changed his mind and rejected Vallee's ideas before his death. There have been several people who have talked about this over the years. One such person is Don Schmitt. Schmitt claims that Hynek told him (paraphrased) that if it's not nuts and bolts then it's a waste of time and not worth pursuing. The problem is that Hynek didn't make any public statements indicating that he changed his mind again and now re-supported the ETH/nuts and bolts. So it's all based on whether or not you feel these people are telling the truth.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
I can't be sure but I tend to believe that Hynek probably did change his mind back before he died. Too bad he didn't make any public statements to this effect though.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Some Hynek history:
The Secret Life of J. Allen Hynek - CSI
(the last five to six paragraphs in the above article highlight his later beliefs)
Jerome Clark re: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
Thanks for the links, Burnt. I had no idea what a mixed bag Hynek was.
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
The term "nuts and bolts" in the context of UFOlogy implies the mystery of the UFO will yield to increased application of traditional scientific tools of analysis. It seems to say that if we only had more sky scanning cameras, better trained and equipped observers, the right kind of electromagnetic detectors etc., that whatever intelligence drives the UFO phenomenon could be "teased out" and understood within the context of 21st century human science. While no one is opposed to this approach, the history of the UFO and such attempts would seem to indicate otherwise.
This doesn't mean the UFO operates independently of the laws of time and space. But rather that it manipulates them at such a higher level than ourselves that it sets the terms by which it interacts with mankind, and not the other way around. It is, and has always been, in control of its interactions with us. Maybe this will one day change. But for the time being at least, we are the lab rats.
So, we are left only with ephemeral imprint caused by manifestation of the UFO, both on the natural environment and that of the human mind. It is the latter that might be the most amenable to study. Read the literature: close encounters with these things has a way of permanently changing individuals and their lives. It's very difficult to study a "nuts and bolts" phenomenon when we have not a single nut or bolt to study.
This doesn't mean the UFO operates independently of the laws of time and space. But rather that it manipulates them at such a higher level than ourselves that it sets the terms by which it interacts with mankind, and not the other way around. It is, and has always been, in control of its interactions with us. Maybe this will one day change. But for the time being at least, we are the lab rats.
So, we are left only with ephemeral imprint caused by manifestation of the UFO, both on the natural environment and that of the human mind. It is the latter that might be the most amenable to study. Read the literature: close encounters with these things has a way of permanently changing individuals and their lives. It's very difficult to study a "nuts and bolts" phenomenon when we have not a single nut or bolt to study.
Polterwurst
Paranormal Adept
Well, you would know about warping and deception, trying to convince people that a german "team" had debunked certain slides, which was solely your invention. Once again you're accusing others of the very methods you use yourself.
I haven't read Passport to Magonia or any other book by Vallee, but from his interviews I always got the vibe that he was stating the direction the data he gathered was leading in. Did he really write that he thought that "Magonians" equals "aliens" or "demons"? The way I understood it was that he used the "Magonians" as a stand-in for folklore creatures across cultures and that he never said they were "demons".
Of course he would have made a lot of the "nuts and bolts" researchers angry, and maybe he even caused a few people, who can't imagine anything outside their materialistic worldview, to turn away from the field. But mainstream scientists even back then would not have needed him to see that the field is dangerous to their career.
And why would he try to deceive people? Because he's a disinformation agent? That's obviously nonsense. Because he's trying to peddle some books? As if he needed that with his IT background.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
Which is why I stated that Ufology is anti-science. Which is why I stated that people don't appreciate how hard it would be to gather proof and are impatient and since evidence doesn't just land in their laps they will jump to magical explanations. Anytime one promotes a magical explanation then it's anti-science because you would be purposefully excluding science in favor of magic, while possibly hiding behind the thinly veiled excuses that this represents a new science we just don't comprehend which is so flimsy it does not hold up to scrutiny and quickly dissolves into nothing as it's not a valid excuse.
The term "nuts and bolts" means that the phenomenon is real in our understanding of the word and that UFOs represent technological craft from elsewhere. Of course I'm excluding the UFOs that may be rare natural phenomenon, misindentificatios and hoaxes for the sake of argument. Remember, we aren't use to trying to get evidence for a superior being. Everything we have currently studied involves lesser beings than us. So it's just really hard to gather the evidence that is needed.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
This is one big strawman argument and the fact that Burnt State liked it is a huge shame.
I did not say that German team debunked the slides. I said a German team had pulled the slides from the trailer.
Vallee didn't just make people angry as you claim. He dealt Ufology a critical blow that it has never recovered from. Because of Vallee, scientists abandoned ship in droves. However people like you and Burnt State sing the praises of Vallee because you clearly can not see the big picture or the damage that Vallee has inflicted.
What you and Burnt State can't seem to realize is that Ufology is a ghost now. It's an ephemeral nothing. It's dead because science has left the building. All we are left with is people rushing to make a name for themselves and to promote the theory of the week.
Hell, this is why I'm not more active in the UFO community because it's all pointless at this point. Any effort made by anyone to try to set things on track is immediately attacked because people, UFO believers, prefer magic and the "eternal mystery" over science. People don't want nuts and bolts and rather prefer soul-sucking, disembodied, shape-shifting ultraterrestrials from the 5th dimension. This is why Ufology is dead.
BoyintheMachine
Paranormal Maven
None of that is new to me. However, the claim that is made by people who knew Hynek is that he changed his mind before he died and realized that if UFOs aren't nuts and bolts, aren't real as we understand reality, then it's not worth studying. As I stated before, we just don't have public statements from Hynek indicating he had changed his mind again. So its a matter of who you want to believe at this point.
Remember, when you claim a magical explanation science will always interpret this as "it's bull shit". I think Hynek was smart enough to realize that all this magical mystical stuff was detrimental to UFOs ever being taken seriously by science.